forget Ali, AJ is still below john ruiz

[crusader]

Lennox Lewis was an excellent fighter, and Holyfield fought very closely with him in the rematch, with a solid sized minority scoring for Evander.

I don't believe that, in about a year, Holyfield went from someone capable of fighting at that level, to finished. I think Evander was fortunate to win the first Ruiz bout too...

[Ossyrules]

Lennox Lewis was an excellent fighter, and Holyfield fought very closely with him in the rematch, with a solid sized minority scoring for Evander.

I don't believe that, in about a year, Holyfield went from someone capable of fighting at that level, to finished. I think Evander was fortunate to win the first Ruiz bout too...

He was way past his best

[crusader]

He obviously wasn't prime, but he was still able to fight on close to even terms with an ATG shortly before.

Conversely, Wlad lost about 9-3 to Tyson Fury in his previous bout, and before that he was struggling to pull the trigger against Bryant Jennings.

[Ossyrules]

He obviously wasn't prime, but he was still able to fight on roughly even terms with an ATG shortly before.

Conversely, in Wlad's previous bout, 18 months prior, he lost about 9-3 to Tyson Fury.

The "draw" Holyfield fought with Lewis was far and away a worse beating that anything fury put on Wlad (8-4 x 2). Holyfield didn't fight on even terms in his loss to Lewis, he was beat but faired better than the first fight "draw"

[crusader]

Lewis deserved to win the draw, but they fought again and it was extremely competitive. Holyfield looked less past it in the rematch, which was fought against an ATG, than Wlad did in losing to Fury.

[Ossyrules]

Lewis deserved to win the draw, but they fought again and it was extremely competitive. Holyfield looked less past it in the rematch, which was fought against an ATG, than Wlad did in losing to Fury.

Disagree. The fury win over the last 18 months has gone from a close fight with not much happening to fury clinic type posts, Holyfield fought better in the rematch against Lewis I accept that, but he was still beat. And it wasn't even either, he just fought better than the first fight.

Were digressing loads anyway, I don't rate Ruiz resumé over Joshua's post wlad

[crusader]

Holyfield was defeated, but in a very competitive fight against an ATG. There was far less evidence of him being spent in that fight than there was of Wlad being past it in his 8-4/9-3 loss to Fury.

I don't see how you can dismiss Holyfield like this, yet hype up AJ's win as if it trumps all of Ruiz's wins put together; that's no less extreme than the stance the thread starter took.

[Ossyrules]

Holyfield was defeated, but in a very competitive fight against an ATG. There was far less evidence of him being spent in that fight than there was of Wlad being past it in his 8-4/9-3 loss to Fury.

I don't see how you can dismiss Holyfield like this, yet hype up AJ's win as if it trumps all of Ruiz's wins put together; that's no less extreme than the stance the thread starter took.

If you read any of my posts on these forums you'd see I'm no hyper, believe me.

But I draw a line somewhere. I can't understand how you can list some of the names you have as if it's even a comparison to discuss, but here we are!

Wlad is receiving universal praise for his showing. Nobody is talking up Holyfield post Lewis.

[crusader]

Evander hasn't fought in 6 years and Wlad-AJ just happened, so obviously Wlad is going to get far more discussion, although a few weeks ago some posters were suggesting that even mid to late 40s Evander could beat Fury and Wlad

And post-Lewis Holyfield needs to be unpacked, because it includes a version who fought 8 months after Lewis, and a version who fought 12 years after

[Ossyrules]

Wlad-AJ just happened, so obviously Wlad is going to get far more discussion, although a few weeks ago some posters were suggesting that even mid to late 40s Evander could beat Fury and Wlad

And post-Lewis Holyfield needs to be unpacked, because it includes a version who fought 8 months after Lewis, and a version who fought 12 years after.

No way late 40s Holyfield wins vs Wlad. He was losing the valuev younger than that.

Yes Holyfield fought on for years but that doesn't mean he was a force, it just means he fought on for a long time, he should have called it a day much earlier. Losing to Ruiz should have been a wake up call but even after that getting battered by Toney should have convinced him to stop.

I've said all I can on this one anyway. You're not on my page and it seems vice Versa. No harm done just opinions on how I see it

[Kalan]

Evander hadn't slid nearly as much as you're suggesting. Just about a year before he was highly competitive with Lennox Lewis, and many people thought Ruiz won the first match with Holyfield, which occurred less than a year after Evander rematched Lewis.

The Zhang hypothetical is relevant, because it would be a clear case of depth vs one standout win. So, what do you say? Would Zhang have a stronger resume than Ruiz on the basis of having the single best win?

The only reason Evander fought Lewis is because he was at the end of the productive, big money part of his career -- after ducking Lewis for over 10 years... Instead of fighting hard like he did with Bowe, Evander went into a shell and fought to survive.. Holyfield gave away nearly every round, thinking all he had to do was remain upright and he'd get the nod from Don King bought judges.. The rematch was judged better because nobody wanted 2 major scandals for Boxing in a row.. Everybody and his brother knew Lewis easily beat Evander.

In the rematch, Lewis easily beat a still reluctant to fight Evander who was well past it.. Tyson and Holyfield avoided Lewis for over 10 years.. They only agreed to fight him when they knew their careers were about to take a major leg down -- and they might get beaten by anybody at anytime, anyway.

Ruiz fought a Holyfield who was clearly on the slide -- because a prime Evander would have treated him the way Roy Jones did.

[Kalan]

Lewis deserved to win the draw, but they fought again and it was extremely competitive. Holyfield looked less past it in the rematch, which was fought against an ATG, than Wlad did in losing to Fury.

Fury has a style that was very tough for Wladimir... He's 6'9" X 250 with an 85" reach with a strong defense -- and he was 27.. Wladimir was 39, has no infighting or body punching ability...and he's not a great attacker.. Fury's style was the worst possible matchup for a Steward finished Wlad than anybody who fought for the last 50 years.. Wlad was fuhked from the get go versus Fury..

Joshua would probably make short work of Fury, but AJ had only 18 pro fights and 44 total rounds when he faced Wlad.. Wladimir was a little taller.. His Steward trained footwork was more expert and precise than AJ's.. His mastery of the jab and the right counter made him a very dangerous opponent for such a greenhorn.. Joshua seeming had Wladimir out in the 5th, but WK had a few more cards up his sleeve than AJ -- and almost won the fight.. Joshua showed amazing coolness under fire as Wladimir tried to put him away.. AJ gave up 2 or 3 rounds and started to rally back.. He didn't make the same mistakes twice and he closed ahead on points with a 2-knockdown round and a brutal stoppage -- way ahead of the Fury showing.

Also, when you say an "ATG" it doesn't mean anything in the larger context.. ATG's have bad nights when they're knocked out with a punch like Lewis was.. Fury was undefeated and untied.. You can't say he wouldn't have beaten Lewis -- who ate jabs from taller fighters and ran into right handers.

[jbizzle20]

This seems like a flame thread. Ruiz is one of the most hated HW champs ever because his approach was so atrocious to watch. He got KTFO by Tua and turned into this tortoise of a fighter who would curl up and go overly defensive the second he was in any kind of risk. Joshua capitalized on his chances against Wlad, he didn't fight just to survive.

[Shirow]

Does comparing like with like not compute with the OP? Or is this another trolling for attention thread.

I don't think anyone would argue that within Ruiz's 55 fight career he had a higher number of good achievements than Joshua in his 19. At 19 fights Ruiz fought a 0 - 7 opponent, hadn't fought anyone i had heard of prior and would lose the IBO title fight against Danell Nicholson in his 20th. Where's the argument that Ruiz had a better career at the stage as Joshua is now?

Unless anyone thinks that AJ may fight another 11 years (until he is the same as Ruiz was when he retired) and not eclipse Ruiz's career I don't see the point of this question.

[cold187]

Read the posts

My thread was mainly those (brits) comparing AJ with the ATGs
If people wanna compare him to Ali, then I can compare to John Ruiz

Yes AJs 19 fight was better than Ruiz,s

I'm looking at resume as when one compares a boxer to ATG that's what they look at
They don't look at what eCh guy did in their 16 or 19 fight

A boxer is judges on his credentials and their history
ATG boxers creat history and break records

Wladimir is an ATG, did he beat an ATG, no but his dominance for 10 years And pro career for 21 years has not been touched

Everything's case by case

[squiggy]

Resume vs. resume, I think the OP is correct, but others are also correct to respond "so what?" as Joshua's still got potential to do much more.

[Kalan]

My thread was mainly those (brits) comparing AJ with the ATGs
If people wanna compare him to Ali, then I can compare to John Ruiz

Then it's a hate post. You believe Ali was better than Joshua -- so you're in turn comparing him to Ruiz. It makes no sense to compare either with AJ

Ali didn't have 4 World Title Fights when he had only 19 pro fights... Ali had none... Ali got knocked on his ass by 185-pound Henry Cooper and 190-pound Sonny Banks... He went life and death in his 18th fight with Light Heavyweight Doug Jones... Joshua goes 6'6" X 250 and Ali went 6'3" X 212.. But Ali weighed 201 for his 2nd Cooper fight.. Joshua is harder to hit and ducks and slips punches with more skill than Ali ever did. Ali had a faulty stance and defensive holes ... and was open to left hooks.

You know, Ken Norton was defensively challenged (as Jose Luis Garcia and George Foreman proved) and he was chinny as Hell, but he beat Ali... Frazier was short, fat, and wide open, (as George Foreman proved) but he beat Ali... Luis Ortiz has 10 times the skills of Norton or Frazier -- but if he beats Anthony Joshua you'll never hear the end of it from Ali fans.. They'll drag Joshua through the dirt and call him a hype job like there's no tomorrow... This is what's called a double standard.. They're already hammering Joshua because Klitschko knocked him down and had him going, even though he came back to win in brilliant fashion.

[cpfc_fan]

My thread was mainly those (brits) comparing AJ with the ATGs
If people wanna compare him to Ali, then I can compare to John Ruiz

Then it's a hate post. You believe Ali was better than Joshua -- so you're in turn comparing him to Ruiz. It makes no sense to compare either with AJ

Ali didn't have 4 World Title Fights when he had only 19 pro fights... Ali had none... Ali got knocked on his ass by 185-pound Henry Cooper and 190-pound Sonny Banks... He went life and death in his 18th fight with Light Heavyweight Doug Jones... Joshua goes 6'6" X 250 and Ali went 6'3" X 212.. But Ali weighed 201 for his 2nd Cooper fight.. Joshua is harder to hit and ducks and slips punches with more skill than Ali ever did. Ali had a faulty stance and defensive holes ... and was open to left hooks.

You know, Ken Norton was defensively challenged (as Jose Luis Garcia and George Foreman proved) and he was chinny as Hell, but he beat Ali... Frazier was short, fat, and wide open, (as George Foreman proved) but he beat Ali... Luis Ortiz has 10 times the skills of Norton or Frazier -- but if he beats Anthony Joshua you'll never hear the end of it from Ali fans.. They'll drag Joshua through the dirt and call him a hype job like there's no tomorrow... This is what's called a double standard.. They're already hammering Joshua because Klitschko knocked him down and had him going, even though he came back to win in brilliant fashion.

Wow...I like AJ and Ali...but this sounds like changing facts to suit theories instead of theories to suit facts.

[Kalan]

My thread was mainly those (brits) comparing AJ with the ATGs
If people wanna compare him to Ali, then I can compare to John Ruiz

Then it's a hate post. You believe Ali was better than Joshua -- so you're in turn comparing him to Ruiz. It makes no sense to compare either with AJ

Ali didn't have 4 World Title Fights when he had only 19 pro fights... Ali had none... Ali got knocked on his ass by 185-pound Henry Cooper and 190-pound Sonny Banks... He went life and death in his 18th fight with Light Heavyweight Doug Jones... Joshua goes 6'6" X 250 and Ali went 6'3" X 212.. But Ali weighed 201 for his 2nd Cooper fight.. Joshua is harder to hit and ducks and slips punches with more skill than Ali ever did. Ali had a faulty stance and defensive holes ... and was open to left hooks.

You know, Ken Norton was defensively challenged (as Jose Luis Garcia and George Foreman proved) and he was chinny as Hell, but he beat Ali... Frazier was short, fat, and wide open, (as George Foreman proved) but he beat Ali... Luis Ortiz has 10 times the skills of Norton or Frazier -- but if he beats Anthony Joshua you'll never hear the end of it from Ali fans.. They'll drag Joshua through the dirt and call him a hype job like there's no tomorrow... This is what's called a double standard.. They're already hammering Joshua because Klitschko knocked him down and had him going, even though he came back to win in brilliant fashion.

Wow...I like AJ and Ali...but this sounds like changing facts to suit theories instead of theories to suit facts.

NO changing of FACTS... AJ had 4 World Title Fights all won by KO by his 19th pro fight.. Ali didn't progress that fast. FACT

Ali got knocked on his ass by 185-pound Henry Cooper and 190-pound Sonny Banks.. AJ never fought anyone that tiny. FACT

A lot of folks had Light Heavyweight Doug Jones beating Ali.. Nobody had anybody beating AJ. FACT

Joshua goes 3 inches taller and some 40 pounds heavier than a prime Ali.. FACT

Ali was open for left hooks.. Banks, Cooper, and Frazier dumped him on his ass and Norton broke his jaw.. FACT

The rest is my opinion, but it's all valid and based on facts.. Norton was knocked stiff by 188-pound Jose Luis Garcia and was a chinny guy.. Frazier looked like a fat little punching bag versus Foreman.. Ortiz is the best and most skillful southpaw in Heavyweight History and a tremendous puncher.. He has a chance to upset Joshua and if that happens Americans will be condemning Joshua as a chinny hype job.. They're already ripping him for having a tough fight with Klitschko.

[ClivePatrickLyons]

Then it's a hate post. You believe Ali was better than Joshua -- so you're in turn comparing him to Ruiz. It makes no sense to compare either with AJ

Ali didn't have 4 World Title Fights when he had only 19 pro fights... Ali had none... Ali got knocked on his ass by 185-pound Henry Cooper and 190-pound Sonny Banks... He went life and death in his 18th fight with Light Heavyweight Doug Jones... Joshua goes 6'6" X 250 and Ali went 6'3" X 212.. But Ali weighed 201 for his 2nd Cooper fight.. Joshua is harder to hit and ducks and slips punches with more skill than Ali ever did. Ali had a faulty stance and defensive holes ... and was open to left hooks.

You know, Ken Norton was defensively challenged (as Jose Luis Garcia and George Foreman proved) and he was chinny as Hell, but he beat Ali... Frazier was short, fat, and wide open, (as George Foreman proved) but he beat Ali... Luis Ortiz has 10 times the skills of Norton or Frazier -- but if he beats Anthony Joshua you'll never hear the end of it from Ali fans.. They'll drag Joshua through the dirt and call him a hype job like there's no tomorrow... This is what's called a double standard.. They're already hammering Joshua because Klitschko knocked him down and had him going, even though he came back to win in brilliant fashion.

Wow...I like AJ and Ali...but this sounds like changing facts to suit theories instead of theories to suit facts.

NO changing of FACTS... AJ had 4 World Title Fights all won by KO by his 19th pro fight.. Ali didn't progress that fast. FACT

Ali got knocked on his ass by 185-pound Henry Cooper and 190-pound Sonny Banks.. AJ never fought anyone that tiny. FACT

A lot of folks had Light Heavyweight Doug Jones beating Ali.. Nobody had anybody beating AJ. FACT

Joshua goes 3 inches taller and some 40 pounds heavier than a prime Ali.. FACT

Ali was open for left hooks.. Banks, Cooper, and Frazier dumped him on his ass and Norton broke his jaw.. FACT

The rest is my opinion, but it's all valid and based on facts.. Norton was knocked stiff by 188-pound Jose Luis Garcia and was a chinny guy.. Frazier looked like a fat little punching bag versus Foreman.. Ortiz is the best and most skillful southpaw in Heavyweight History and a tremendous puncher.. He has a chance to upset Joshua and if that happens Americans will be condemning Joshua as a chinny hype job.. They're already ripping him for having a tough fight with Klitschko.

FACT YOU'R AN IDIOT

[Kalan]

FACT YOU'R AN IDIOT

You must be looking in the mirror as you say this. You have the market cornered on that category.

[man]

first of all AJ would probably spark out john Ruiz, but in reply to those people on about ALi comparisons
AJ is still to achieve what likes of john Ruiz has done

AJ achieved way more already.

[cpfc_fan]

Then it's a hate post. You believe Ali was better than Joshua -- so you're in turn comparing him to Ruiz. It makes no sense to compare either with AJ

Ali didn't have 4 World Title Fights when he had only 19 pro fights... Ali had none... Ali got knocked on his ass by 185-pound Henry Cooper and 190-pound Sonny Banks... He went life and death in his 18th fight with Light Heavyweight Doug Jones... Joshua goes 6'6" X 250 and Ali went 6'3" X 212.. But Ali weighed 201 for his 2nd Cooper fight.. Joshua is harder to hit and ducks and slips punches with more skill than Ali ever did. Ali had a faulty stance and defensive holes ... and was open to left hooks.

You know, Ken Norton was defensively challenged (as Jose Luis Garcia and George Foreman proved) and he was chinny as Hell, but he beat Ali... Frazier was short, fat, and wide open, (as George Foreman proved) but he beat Ali... Luis Ortiz has 10 times the skills of Norton or Frazier -- but if he beats Anthony Joshua you'll never hear the end of it from Ali fans.. They'll drag Joshua through the dirt and call him a hype job like there's no tomorrow... This is what's called a double standard.. They're already hammering Joshua because Klitschko knocked him down and had him going, even though he came back to win in brilliant fashion.

Wow...I like AJ and Ali...but this sounds like changing facts to suit theories instead of theories to suit facts.

NO changing of FACTS... AJ had 4 World Title Fights all won by KO by his 19th pro fight.. Ali didn't progress that fast. FACT

Ali got knocked on his ass by 185-pound Henry Cooper and 190-pound Sonny Banks.. AJ never fought anyone that tiny. FACT

A lot of folks had Light Heavyweight Doug Jones beating Ali.. Nobody had anybody beating AJ. FACT

Joshua goes 3 inches taller and some 40 pounds heavier than a prime Ali.. FACT

Ali was open for left hooks.. Banks, Cooper, and Frazier dumped him on his ass and Norton broke his jaw.. FACT

The rest is my opinion, but it's all valid and based on facts.. Norton was knocked stiff by 188-pound Jose Luis Garcia and was a chinny guy.. Frazier looked like a fat little punching bag versus Foreman.. Ortiz is the best and most skillful southpaw in Heavyweight History and a tremendous puncher.. He has a chance to upset Joshua and if that happens Americans will be condemning Joshua as a chinny hype job.. They're already ripping him for having a tough fight with Klitschko.

Ok - these are facts, but you have chosen a few and use them to justify a predetermined opinion. You could find any fact and use it to justify any boxer is better than another. (based on your logic Valuev is the best ever because he was the biggest...see your third point).

But to counter some of your points;

Comparing when they their won titles: it is a different era in 2017. Ali had one title to fight for, not the many available now. And equally Ali was a lot younger than Joshua when he won his title...and against a fighter considered far superior.

Getting knocked down: i don't think this really matters a huge amount, especially if a fighter got up from it to win. There are so many type of knockdown. But AJ has been knocked down by David Price and Lawrence Okolie - yes, in sparring, but if you think chin matters then that is a worry. Ali's knockdown in Frazier 1 was one of the most concussive knockdowns ever...him getting up is reason to praise not criticise in my opinion.

Ali may have been hit by left hooks, but he was very good defensively. AJ has been hit as well (see Whyte and Klitchko)

[Kalan]

Wow...I like AJ and Ali...but this sounds like changing facts to suit theories instead of theories to suit facts.

NO changing of FACTS... AJ had 4 World Title Fights all won by KO by his 19th pro fight.. Ali didn't progress that fast. FACT

Ali got knocked on his ass by 185-pound Henry Cooper and 190-pound Sonny Banks.. AJ never fought anyone that tiny. FACT

A lot of folks had Light Heavyweight Doug Jones beating Ali.. Nobody had anybody beating AJ. FACT

Joshua goes 3 inches taller and some 40 pounds heavier than a prime Ali.. FACT

Ali was open for left hooks.. Banks, Cooper, and Frazier dumped him on his ass and Norton broke his jaw.. FACT

The rest is my opinion, but it's all valid and based on facts.. Norton was knocked stiff by 188-pound Jose Luis Garcia and was a chinny guy.. Frazier looked like a fat little punching bag versus Foreman.. Ortiz is the best and most skillful southpaw in Heavyweight History and a tremendous puncher.. He has a chance to upset Joshua and if that happens Americans will be condemning Joshua as a chinny hype job.. They're already ripping him for having a tough fight with Klitschko.

Ok - these are facts, but you have chosen a few and use them to justify a predetermined opinion. You could find any fact and use it to justify any boxer is better than another. (based on your logic Valuev is the best ever because he was the biggest...see your third point).

But to counter some of your points;

Comparing when they their won titles: it is a different era in 2017. Ali had one title to fight for, not the many available now. And equally Ali was a lot younger than Joshua when he won his title...and against a fighter considered far superior.

Getting knocked down: i don't think this really matters a huge amount, especially if a fighter got up from it to win. There are so many type of knockdown. But AJ has been knocked down by David Price and Lawrence Okolie - yes, in sparring, but if you think chin matters then that is a worry. Ali's knockdown in Frazier 1 was one of the most concussive knockdowns ever...him getting up is reason to praise not criticise in my opinion.

Ali may have been hit by left hooks, but he was very good defensively. AJ has been hit as well (see Whyte and Klitchko)

Did you know Ali was knocked out in sparring??? ... He admits this in his autobiography.. He talks about coming out of it in stages.. Joshua uses sparring to improve his skills, not to test his skills.. He's not concerned about what happens in a sparring match because it's not a contest.. Do you want to be the world's best gym fighter or a super wealthy World Heavyweight Champion??? To BE or NOT to be. That is the question.

I never said size is the overarching asset any boxer has. That would be a ridiculous statement. But there are no weight classes in Tennis or Golf.. There are no weight classes in ANY sports but combat sports -- so height, weight, reach, and strength give a boxer with great skills a significant advantage over a much smaller foe.. In the case of Valuev, size was the only outstanding asset he had.. He was devoid of skills.. Don't give me opinions I don't hold.

It didn't matter how many titles there were in 1964.. The World Champion was an old man who was already aging in the late 50's.. Ali came along at the right time and beat a guy who had 3 rounds of action in the previous 3 years... How often does that happen? They were doing Heavyweight Title Fights once a year in the 1950's and 1960's at times -- because there was no Heavyweight talent out there.. The title was practically handed to Ali.. Joshua beat a young undefeated tricky young southpaw who went 6'5" X 245, and admittedly wasn't an outstanding champion.. Joshua treated Martin as such and wiped him out in 4 minutes.. Ali never defended the title against a 6'6" X 240 ATG boxer/puncher in his life.

Ali wasn't "very good" defensively or he would not have absorbed the massive amount of punishment that fell to him... Klitschko is very good defensively ... Until his latest fight Wlad never took a massive amount of punishment going back 14 or 15 years to where his skills needed a serious upgrade.

[Bricks]

This boards is bad for extremists

Joshua is either the GOAT, or terrible

He's neither

Is the OP an extremist?

He never said AJ is terrible, and he stated that AJ would probably beat Ruiz.

Ruiz beat several notable fighters over a much longer career than AJ has had, and it's not really crazy to suggest that his record is stronger than AJ's is at the moment.

Was more of a general observation that a direct hit on the OP. These boards are a lot of all or nothing posts.

As for this one in particular, anyone with one eye can see that Joshua is above John Ruiz already

I think a sane view would be....aj at this stage even after his huge win would still take 8-9 rounds to dismantle a prime ruiz...and he would win every round as he imposed his height size and strength and regused to let ruiz grab and clutch.ruiz ends on his knees from an uppercut in 9 but aj is gasping for air due to his still questionable stamina