Arcel and Steward said Ray Robinson was protected

[APerno]

Thread bump. Any more thoughts on SRR being protected?

How does a guy put together a 200+ fight career 'ducking' people. - but on the serious side, or should I say philosophical side - I believe 'ducking' is a fan value, not a fighter's obligation - fighters are entrepreneurs seeking the best money for the best fight and have no obligation to take a fight they believe they will lose - there was a time when you could make the argument that a champion had an obligation to the top contender, but today, with the sanctioning bodies watering down the titles, even that argument doesn't hold water - (a worthy contender can always just win a different belt) - 'ducking' is purely a fan value - a fighter has no obligation to take a bad fight just to satisfy wannabees like me.

[Controversial]

Thread bump. Any more thoughts on SRR being protected?

How does a guy put together a 200+ fight career 'ducking' people. - but on the serious side, or should I say philosophical side - I believe 'ducking' is a fan value, not a fighter's obligation - fighters are entrepreneurs seeking the best money for the best fight and have no obligation to take a fight they believe they will lose - there was a time when you could make the argument that a champion had an obligation to the top contender, but today, with the sanctioning bodies watering down the titles, even that argument doesn't hold water - (a worthy contender can always just win a different belt) - 'ducking' is purely a fan value - a fighter has no obligation to take a bad fight just to satisfy wannabees like me.

I never created this thread but I found it interesting. Ray Arcel and Emanuel Steward apparently held this belief that SRR was protected. As I have previously stated in this thread I do believe there was a reluctance to fight Charles Burley and people too could ask questions why SRR never fought many of the top black fighters around.

[APerno]

Thread bump. Any more thoughts on SRR being protected?

How does a guy put together a 200+ fight career 'ducking' people. - but on the serious side, or should I say philosophical side - I believe 'ducking' is a fan value, not a fighter's obligation - fighters are entrepreneurs seeking the best money for the best fight and have no obligation to take a fight they believe they will lose - there was a time when you could make the argument that a champion had an obligation to the top contender, but today, with the sanctioning bodies watering down the titles, even that argument doesn't hold water - (a worthy contender can always just win a different belt) - 'ducking' is purely a fan value - a fighter has no obligation to take a bad fight just to satisfy wannabees like me.

I never created this thread but I found it interesting. Ray Arcel and Emanuel Steward apparently held this belief that SRR was protected. As I have previously stated in this thread I do believe there was a reluctance to fight Charles Burley and people too could ask questions why SRR never fought many of the top black fighters around.

I am going to go ahead and step on the third rail - drawing the 'color line' was smart, even for Black fighters - lets go all the way back to Jack Johnson - people love to point out that once champion Johnson never gave any of the Black contenders a shot - and he didn't - but racism and justice are not his obligation - there was (much) more money in fighting white contenders, so why risk fighting a good black boxer, for less money, when bigger money could be had from second rate white contenders (e.g. Fireman Jim Flynn) - if you are SRR why fight Burley (who wasn't a champion) when you can fight popular Italian and Irish fighters - you go where the money is, and in a world (past times) full of racism why use up the few good fights you have left fighting Black fighters. Because it would be the right thing to do? - that is bad business - in particular I can see SRR 'ducking' Burley - great (difficult to fight) fighter with no title and not likely to be a mega money fight - 'ducking' Burley was smart - wrong only to the fans, and Burley I suppose (but I am pretty sure the IRS does not have Charles Burley listed as one of SRR's dependents.)

[Controversial]

How does a guy put together a 200+ fight career 'ducking' people. - but on the serious side, or should I say philosophical side - I believe 'ducking' is a fan value, not a fighter's obligation - fighters are entrepreneurs seeking the best money for the best fight and have no obligation to take a fight they believe they will lose - there was a time when you could make the argument that a champion had an obligation to the top contender, but today, with the sanctioning bodies watering down the titles, even that argument doesn't hold water - (a worthy contender can always just win a different belt) - 'ducking' is purely a fan value - a fighter has no obligation to take a bad fight just to satisfy wannabees like me.

I never created this thread but I found it interesting. Ray Arcel and Emanuel Steward apparently held this belief that SRR was protected. As I have previously stated in this thread I do believe there was a reluctance to fight Charles Burley and people too could ask questions why SRR never fought many of the top black fighters around.

I am going to go ahead and step on the third rail - drawing the 'color line' was smart, even for Black fighters - lets go all the way back to Jack Johnson - people love to point out that once champion Johnson never gave any of the Black contenders a shot - and he didn't - but racism and justice are not his obligation - there was (much) more money in fighting white contenders, so why risk fighting a good black boxer, for less money, when bigger money could be had from second rate white contenders (e.g. Fireman Jim Flynn) - if you are SRR why fight Burley (who wasn't a champion) when you can fight popular Italian and Irish fighters - you go where the money is, and in a world (past times) full of racism why use up the few good fights you have left fighting Black fighters. Because it would be the right thing to do? - that is bad business - in particular I can see SRR 'ducking' Burley - great (difficult to fight) fighter with no title and not likely to be a mega money fight - 'ducking' Burley was smart - wrong only to the fans, and Burley I suppose (but I am pretty sure the IRS does not have Charles Burley listed as one of SRR's dependents.)

Sure I got that however SRR fought 32 non-title fights when he was WW champ against guys that wouldn't of generated big bucks. Burley's team offered SRR big purses that his team declined and instead they chose to fight others for less money. Read into that what you want. Some could call SRR protected, some could call that ducking and others could call that wise management. It doesn't change the fact that SRR was a great fighter. No one gave Burley a title shot so I believe he was ducked throughout his career as he was a dangerous opponent.

[APerno]

I never created this thread but I found it interesting. Ray Arcel and Emanuel Steward apparently held this belief that SRR was protected. As I have previously stated in this thread I do believe there was a reluctance to fight Charles Burley and people too could ask questions why SRR never fought many of the top black fighters around.

I am going to go ahead and step on the third rail - drawing the 'color line' was smart, even for Black fighters - lets go all the way back to Jack Johnson - people love to point out that once champion Johnson never gave any of the Black contenders a shot - and he didn't - but racism and justice are not his obligation - there was (much) more money in fighting white contenders, so why risk fighting a good black boxer, for less money, when bigger money could be had from second rate white contenders (e.g. Fireman Jim Flynn) - if you are SRR why fight Burley (who wasn't a champion) when you can fight popular Italian and Irish fighters - you go where the money is, and in a world (past times) full of racism why use up the few good fights you have left fighting Black fighters. Because it would be the right thing to do? - that is bad business - in particular I can see SRR 'ducking' Burley - great (difficult to fight) fighter with no title and not likely to be a mega money fight - 'ducking' Burley was smart - wrong only to the fans, and Burley I suppose (but I am pretty sure the IRS does not have Charles Burley listed as one of SRR's dependents.)

Sure I got that however SRR fought 32 non-title fights when he was WW champ against guys that wouldn't of generated big bucks. Burley's team offered SRR big purses that his team declined and instead they chose to fight others for less money. Read into that what you want. Some could call SRR protected, some could call that ducking and others could call that wise management. It doesn't change the fact that SRR was a great fighter. No one gave Burley a title shot so I believe he was ducked throughout his career as he was a dangerous opponent.

I agree Burley was dangerous - great counter puncher from what I have read - as far as taking less money for weaker opponents - what I said was "the 'best' fight for the 'best' money," which doesn't necessarily mean the 'most' money - sometimes it means taking less money while running up easy wins - but let me say it outloud - Burley was a great fighter who was 'ducked' by many - for several reasons he was a bad fight to take - I wonder how many non-champions there are in the Boxing Hall of Fame - if the overused term 'uncrowned champion' means anything, it applies to Burley.

Years back it wasn't uncommon for fighters to duck all 'south paws' (I realize Burley was orthodox) - they say some trainers use to turn left-handed fighters around because otherwise they couldn't get them fights.

'Ducking' is part of the game - I call it good management.

After Livingstone Bramble got mugged by Edwin Rosario back in '86, the Duvas' (whom Bramble had broken with to sign with King) made the comment, 'we would have never taken Rosario' - as a Bramble fan (we were both from the Paterson, NJ area) I was thinking the same thing before the fight - Bramble should have 'ducked' Rosario, taken an easy defense, and then there was a million dollar payday (Camacho) at the end of the tunnel - King blew that one. -Oh, and Rosario deserved the fight, he had been robbed against Camacho, and he was the best out there, that's why Bramble should have ducked him.

From Wikipedia

"Archie Moore, the light-heavyweight champion who was defeated by Burley in a 1944 middleweight bout, was one of several fighters who called Burley the greatest fighter ever."

High phrase indeed.

[Controversial]

I agree Burley was dangerous - great counter puncher from what I have read - as far as taking less money for weaker opponents - what I said was "the 'best' fight for the 'best' money," which doesn't necessarily mean the 'most' money - sometimes it means taking less money while running up easy wins - but let me say it outloud - Burley was a great fighter who was 'ducked' by many - for several reasons he was a bad fight to take - I wonder how many non-champions there are in the Boxing Hall of Fame - if the overused term 'uncrowned champion' means anything, it applies to Burley.

Years back it wasn't uncommon for fighters to duck all 'south paws' (I realize Burley was orthodox) - they say some trainers use to turn left-handed fighters around because otherwise they couldn't get them fights.

'Ducking' is part of the game - I call it good management.

After Livingstone Bramble got mugged by Edwin Rosario back in '86, the Duvas' (whom Bramble had broken with to sign with King) made the comment, 'we would have never taken Rosario' - as a Bramble fan (we were both from the Paterson, NJ area) I was thinking the same thing before the fight - Bramble should have 'ducked' Rosario, taken an easy defense, and then there was a million dollar payday (Camacho) at the end of the tunnel - King blew that one. -Oh, and Rosario deserved the fight, he had been robbed against Camacho, and he was the best out there, that's why Bramble should have ducked him.

From Wikipedia

"Archie Moore, the light-heavyweight champion who was defeated by Burley in a 1944 middleweight bout, was one of several fighters who called Burley the greatest fighter ever."

High phrase indeed.

Have a read on the long post I made on page two on this thread, some interesting things from the national press about Burley, how his contract was owned by a world champ, that Ring magazine had Burley rated in their top ten for 100 consecutive months and some other interesting bits.

As you say ducking is part of the game and Burkey was certainly a part of many fighters "good management".

[APerno]

I agree Burley was dangerous - great counter puncher from what I have read - as far as taking less money for weaker opponents - what I said was "the 'best' fight for the 'best' money," which doesn't necessarily mean the 'most' money - sometimes it means taking less money while running up easy wins - but let me say it outloud - Burley was a great fighter who was 'ducked' by many - for several reasons he was a bad fight to take - I wonder how many non-champions there are in the Boxing Hall of Fame - if the overused term 'uncrowned champion' means anything, it applies to Burley.

Years back it wasn't uncommon for fighters to duck all 'south paws' (I realize Burley was orthodox) - they say some trainers use to turn left-handed fighters around because otherwise they couldn't get them fights.

'Ducking' is part of the game - I call it good management.

After Livingstone Bramble got mugged by Edwin Rosario back in '86, the Duvas' (whom Bramble had broken with to sign with King) made the comment, 'we would have never taken Rosario' - as a Bramble fan (we were both from the Paterson, NJ area) I was thinking the same thing before the fight - Bramble should have 'ducked' Rosario, taken an easy defense, and then there was a million dollar payday (Camacho) at the end of the tunnel - King blew that one. -Oh, and Rosario deserved the fight, he had been robbed against Camacho, and he was the best out there, that's why Bramble should have ducked him.

From Wikipedia

"Archie Moore, the light-heavyweight champion who was defeated by Burley in a 1944 middleweight bout, was one of several fighters who called Burley the greatest fighter ever."

High phrase indeed.

Have a read on the long post I made on page two on this thread, some interesting things from the national press about Burley, how his contract was owned by a world champ, that Ring magazine had Burley rated in their top ten for 100 consecutive months and some other interesting bits.

As you say ducking is part of the game and Burkey was certainly a part of many fighters "good management".

I am reading your chronology as I type, but I wanted to stop in the middle and ask a quick question: how the hell did Burley avoid the draft? Born in 1917, he was 25 in '42 - he should have been gone . . .you have any knowledge on this, was he 4F for some reason, or a non-citizen? ? ? - from Pearl Harbor to July 1945, (the war years) he had 35 fights - how did he get to do that?

[Ambling Alp II]

The Burley thing has always been total nonsense. They were both ranked in the same weight class for one year. That's it. It's not like they were both in the same weight class for several years and it never happened.

[Controversial]

I am reading your chronology as I type, but I wanted to stop in the middle and ask a quick question: how the hell did Burley avoid the draft? Born in 1917, he was 25 in '42 - he should have been gone . . .you have any knowledge on this, was he 4F for some reason, or a non-citizen? ? ? - from Pearl Harbor to July 1945, (the war years) he had 35 fights - how did he get to do that?

Apparently he was considered unfit for the military due to a burst eardrum.

[APerno]

I am reading your chronology as I type, but I wanted to stop in the middle and ask a quick question: how the hell did Burley avoid the draft? Born in 1917, he was 25 in '42 - he should have been gone . . .you have any knowledge on this, was he 4F for some reason, or a non-citizen? ? ? - from Pearl Harbor to July 1945, (the war years) he had 35 fights - how did he get to do that?

Apparently he was considered unfit for the military due to a burst eardrum.

Interesting - thank you - also an interesting read . . .

after reading your post I concluded that Burley's sweet spot was in October '46 when the sanctioning body (Abe Green) tried to force a LaMotta-Burley elimination fight - (Burley did seem to have a few people championing his cause e.g the political cartoon) - but as that article stated, LaMotta already had a 'guarantee' (NY Boxing Commission) for a shot at the title, granted Cerdan got the shot first, but then they made good on the guarantee to LaMotta - so I think it is obvious that LaMotta should have ducked Burley; I ask you, honestly wouldn't you have?

https://news.google.com/newspapers?nid= ... 468,217047

As to the Jersey Jones claim that LaMotta refused a $20,000 guarantee; in this business people say things, that one could be true, that one could just be PR by Jones (unfortunately that link was broken, I couldn't read the original source)

But to praise Burley one last time let me ask again . . . is there anyone in the HOF (Modern Category) that did not hold a title, besides Burley? That in itself is serious praise. I couldn't pick another 'non-title holder' name off the list - do you know if anyone else fits that category?

http://www.ibhof.com/pages/about/inductees/modern.html

In the Old Timers category there are several 'non-title holder' Black boxers on the list - but that makes sense, 'the color line' - Sam Langford, Harry Wiils, Sam McVey, and a few more - but in Burley's time it was no longer the color line that was the problem, it was Burley. He was too good, with poor connections, with no one protecting him; how often was his contract sold (I ask rhetorically). No one really protecting him.

You have convinced me, he is the mid-century poster child for getting screwed.

[ClivePatrickLyons]

What a load of rubbish SRR had 200 pro fight's and in fight's against fellow HOF's SRR record was 21-7-2 he only ever fought 2 HOF's that he never beat in Joey Maxim when the heat beat him and Joey Giardello when he was clearly past his best he beat 16 reigning or future World Champion's Bert Sugar rated him the best fighter ever and ESPN Rated SRR the best ever and the The Ring Magazine had him fighter of the year from 1942/1951 GEEZE IMAGINE IF HE WAS'NT PROTECTED

[Kalan]

I'm sure if they wanted to fight Burley it could have been arranged. SRR had a very long career and fought numerous fighters yet as far as I know Burley was never even considered as an opponent.

Burley stated that SRRs manager admitted to him that Ray ducked him.

The public were not interested in that fight.

Seriously anyone who fights a prime Kid Gavilan several times is not "protected", period. That statement about Robinson not being able to handle "jabs" is one of the most retarded things I've ever heard. Charley Fusari and Bobby Dykes were both excellent tall jabbers and Robinson took them to school.

Fusari and Dykes were horsesh!t jabbers. They achieved no fame and weren't noted as slick boxers..Burley was an excellent jabber and jabbed the crap out of Archie Moore when Moore had 74 fights.. The jab set up Burley's right hand and he decked Moore 4 times beating him badly without even trying.. Moore outweighed Burley by 6 pounds but was completely dominated. He complained later that Burley was so slick he couldn't even clinch him effectively.. Moore fought a lot of great fighters but said Burley was by far and away the greatest boxer he ever faced in his entire career.

Robinson cleverly ducked Burley AND Moore.

Robinson also ducked rematches with a couple boxers who kicked his ass real good.. He refused to rematch huge underdog Ralph Jones who beat the crap out of him.. Robinson also refused an extremely lucrative rematch with Joey Maxim -- who cleverly paced him self well for the elements and stopped Robinson late in their fight. Robinson was one of the most protected boxers of all time.

SRR had height, weight, and reach on Gavilan, so fighting him was no big deal... Particularly since Gavilan was a weak hitter with a 20% KO ratio.

[Chuck1052]

Can anyone be sure that Sugar Ray Robinson and Jake LaMotta received genuine offers of $20,000. or $25,000. to fight Charley Burley? As I noted before in previous posts on this thread, I have very serious doubts about the validity of such offers.

When Burley fought Aaron "Tiger" Wade in a 10-rounder at Forbes Field in Burley's hometown of Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania on August 20, 1945, the gross gate was $16,302.55 and the net gate was $12,473.05 with the attendance being 6,703, according to a ringside report in the August 21, 1945 edition of the Pittsburgh Press on Newspapers.com. Keep in mind that the 10-round bout between Sammy Angott and Gene Burton probably was the featured bout on the card. In the ringside report, a total of eight paragraphs was devoted to the Angott-Burton bout while the Burley-Wade bout received only two lines of coverage. Moreover, Burley and Wade reportedly "waltzed through ten listless rounds" and "kept a safe distance from each other at all times."

- Chuck Johnston

[Kalan]

Burley took a lot of fights on short notice...so there was no time to build up a lot of his fights.. I don't think he wanted any arrangement with Jim Norris and that might have hurt his career a lot.. He never got a title shot.. Burley was a guy who took fights when and where he could get them.

For instance he was called at his day job and offered the Archie Moore fight that very evening. He had 6 hours lead time. He finished his factory shift and caught a bus to Hollywood. He fought Moore without a second in his corner. A couple times, back in the 60's, I saw boxers fighting main events without a second in their corner and standing between rounds. One fighter told me they only provided one plane ticket for him.

[wouter]

For instance he was called at his day job and offered the Archie Moore fight that very evening. He had 6 hours lead time. He finished his factory shift and caught a bus to Hollywood. He fought Moore without a second in his corner.

Since the bout was announced in the LA Times, there are two options:

1. The preview was written by a psychic.
2. You are once again making things up.

[Controversial]

As the article link in the very first post by montrealsuper is broken I have managed to find it elsewhere. Here it is -

"With all the talk today about Floyd Mayweather being a modern day protected fighter, I have come across evidences that there were also protected superstar fighters in the past...even Sugar Ray Robinson.

The late Emanuel Steward told me this information about Robinson, which he learned from Robinsons trainer: "Even Ray Robinson - I talked with George Gainford - he said we always had to keep Ray with guys about 5-foot-8 and we never let him box too much with taller fighters. So even at his best he still had problems with Pender and Joey Archer, even though he was older, but still, tall fighters bothered him. Gainford said Robinson could not handle guys with jabs. I said, Are you kidding? He said, Nope. Look at the fights, even with Lamotta. Lamotta, literally, once in a while hed come up with a little pick-pick jab and Ray would get all unorganized. He said Ray had problems, just got disoriented with jabs. Even though he was always used to being the taller guy. So if someone jabbed back he got all unorganized."

Evidence number two: From Dave Andersons book "In This Corner" from the Ray Arcel chapter. "The first time I realized Ezzard Charles was a great boxer was in 42 when he fought Charley Burley in Pittsburgh twice in five weeks. You must understand that Charley Burley was the best fighter who not only never won a title but never got any glory. In those days if you were a good black fighter nobody wanted to fight you. To get fights, Burley fought anyone who would fight him. He didnt care if the other guy weighed l80 pounds...One time I was kidding around with Ray Robinson and I said, Charleys one of the best fighters in the world, Ray, why dont you give him a shot? Ray looked at me and said, I thought you was my friend. Thats how great a fighter Ezzard Charles was."

So even the great Sugar Ray Robinson, when examined closely under the microscope of history, not unlike Floyd Mayweather, Roy Jones Jr.,, can be considered a "protected fighter."

Boxing isnt just about the mental and physical, its also about, like Mickey told us in the film "Rocky", having the right management and connections."
By Mark 'Scoop' Malinowski

[APerno]

For instance he was called at his day job and offered the Archie Moore fight that very evening. He had 6 hours lead time. He finished his factory shift and caught a bus to Hollywood. He fought Moore without a second in his corner.

Since the bout was announced in the LA Times, there are two options:

1. The preview was written by a psychic.
2. You are once again making things up.

What's the matter, don't you recognize alternative history when you read it? - this 'alternative' thing is the latest fad, you should try to keep up; we're not doing the 'actual truth' thing anymore, it can be inconvenient.

Social media is a cancer to truth; if you do a Google search of a boxing topic there is a good chance a post from this forum will appear, misinformation and all - Aldous Huxley must be laughing his ass off.

[Chuck1052]

For instance he was called at his day job and offered the Archie Moore fight that very evening. He had 6 hours lead time. He finished his factory shift and caught a bus to Hollywood. He fought Moore without a second in his corner.

Since the bout was announced in the LA Times, there are two options:

1. The preview was written by a psychic.
2. You are once again making things up.

Wouter is one hundred percent right about the false assertion about Charley Burley taking the bout with Archie Moore on short notice. In fact, a mention about the scheduled Burley-Moore bout appeared in Al Wolf's "Sportraits" column in the April 17, 1944 edition of the Los Angeles Times on Newspapers.com, four days before the bout took place. I will add that Charley MacDonald, the boxing matchmaker at the Hollywood Legion Stadium at time, may have been very eager to sign Burley for another bout right after the latter's terrific performance vs. Jack Chase at the Legion Stadium, which took place only two weeks before Burley's bout with Moore.

- Chuck Johnston

[Kalan]

For instance he was called at his day job and offered the Archie Moore fight that very evening. He had 6 hours lead time. He finished his factory shift and caught a bus to Hollywood. He fought Moore without a second in his corner.

Since the bout was announced in the LA Times, there are two options:

1. The preview was written by a psychic.
2. You are once again making things up.

According to the stories I always heard, Burley fought Moore as a late substitute... That's what he always said, and what I read in boxing magazine stories... He was called at his day job and offered the Moore fight on a few hours notice... If you produce the newspaper article that shows a preview that was written before the day of the fight, I'll admit to being wrong.

And I know there's a lot of stories out there that aren't true -- like the one about the actions Angelo Dundee took when Clay was floored by Cooper --
that claim Angie cleverly opened a slit in Clay's glove, pulled out some padding, and demanded a new glove to buy Clay a couple minutes to recover... That's a story everyone heard that was hogwash -- because the fight is available for everyone to check out.. If a newspaper story is available, let's see it.

[Chuck1052]

If Charley Burley was working and residing in San Diego, California when receiving a call at work about an offer of a bout with Archie Moore at the Hollywood Legion Stadium that was scheduled to take place that evening, it would mean that Burley would have to leave work and find a way to travel to Hollywood, which is a trip of about 120 miles from San Diego.

Keep in mind that the bout between Burley and Moore took place during World War II, which would have made it far more difficult for Burley to find a way to make the trip on such short notice and arrive at Hollywood Legion Stadium on time. If Burley traveled by automobile or bus, the national maximum speed limit was only 35 miles per hour due to the war, not to mention the fact that gasoline was rationed. Of course, Burley also could have taken a train. But both trains and buses ran on schedules, which means that Burley would have to travel to the bus depot or the train station, purchase a ticket, and wait until it was time to board the bus or train. Think of the possible stops that a train or a bus would have to make along the way. Most likely, Burley would have to get off the train at Union Station in Downtown Los Angeles, which is located about 6 miles from Hollywood. If Burley took a bus from San Diego, there may have been a bus depot in Hollywood at the time.

Due to such logistics of a trip from San Diego to the Los Angeles area at the time, it is one reason that the tale about Burley taking the bout with Moore on such short notice was illogical. Of course, Burley taking on a very formidable opponent on such short notice also was illogical. It isn't any wonder that the tale is not true.

- Chuck Johnston

[Controversial]

If Charley Burley was working and residing in San Diego, California when receiving a call at work about an offer of a bout with Archie Moore at the Hollywood Legion Stadium that was scheduled to take place that evening, it would mean that Burley would have to leave work and find a way to travel to Hollywood, which is a trip of about 120 miles from San Diego.

I have a book about Burley which quotes Eddie Futch about this subject. Futch reckons someone pulled out of the main event with Moore after they failed the medical which was at noon. The fight was at 7pm that evening. They rang Burley at work and he took the fight, went home for his kit then took a 125 mile bus ride to the venue. If a 35mph limit was in place it would have taken him around 3.5 hours so not impossible.

[BroughtonRulesRefuge]

- Typical ducking nonsense on this forum that is only one degree removed from McCallum and Burley ducking each other.

Burley turned pro to no acclaim 4 years before Robby who was greatly acclaimed upon his debut. Operated in different spheres with little opponent overlap. Burley was mostly done after the war, whereas Robby his most acclaim and money after his near fatal heat stroke against Maxim.

Like Charley, but going thru near a dozen mgrs didn't help his cause nor his Smith footage which would be a terrible place to look for genius. Lost his first fight to a guy in modern terms was 3 divisions below him. Recovered well, but c'mon!

[Kalan]

Thread bump. Any more thoughts on SRR being protected?

How does a guy put together a 200+ fight career 'ducking' people. - but on the serious side, or should I say philosophical side - I believe 'ducking' is a fan value, not a fighter's obligation - fighters are entrepreneurs seeking the best money for the best fight and have no obligation to take a fight they believe they will lose - there was a time when you could make the argument that a champion had an obligation to the top contender, but today, with the sanctioning bodies watering down the titles, even that argument doesn't hold water - (a worthy contender can always just win a different belt) - 'ducking' is purely a fan value - a fighter has no obligation to take a bad fight just to satisfy wannabees like me.

What about a boxer like GGG, who is ambitious and has been an Undefeated Middleweight Champion for many years and seeks undisputed status??? He's been calling out the various Lineal Middleweight Champions for 7 years and the fans all agree the Lineal Champions were ducking him. And he still has to endure hearing his detractors like Floyd Mayweather tell the world that Canelo (who Floyd beat) would knock him out easily.

What about Gary Russell??? He's been the best Featherweight since Lomachenko left the division as a Featherweight Champion because the other top Freatherweights refused to fight him. Russell fought Lomachenko and his reward is that he can't get Santa Cruz, Mares, Selby, Frampton, or Cuellar to even consider fighting him. His supposed benefactor Al Haymon isn't helping him in that regard at all.

And what about Lomachenko? He's a 2 division World Champion but the other top Super Featherweights pretend he doesn't exist.

And what about Artur Beterbiev??? He's been a professional for 4 years and the other top Light Heavyweights are avoiding him like he's radioactive. He's got only 11 fights against guys he could beat 8 times a week. He finally got a fight lined up with Kovalev in Russia, a man he beat twice as an amateur, and Al Haymon put the kabash on the fight. Beterbiev could have gone through his 11 opponents in 6 months if he was matched as progressively as Mike Tyson (who had a much shorter amateur career) was matched. It's a massive waste of athletic potential and fighters are being cheated.

[APerno]

Thread bump. Any more thoughts on SRR being protected?

How does a guy put together a 200+ fight career 'ducking' people. - but on the serious side, or should I say philosophical side - I believe 'ducking' is a fan value, not a fighter's obligation - fighters are entrepreneurs seeking the best money for the best fight and have no obligation to take a fight they believe they will lose - there was a time when you could make the argument that a champion had an obligation to the top contender, but today, with the sanctioning bodies watering down the titles, even that argument doesn't hold water - (a worthy contender can always just win a different belt) - 'ducking' is purely a fan value - a fighter has no obligation to take a bad fight just to satisfy wannabees like me.

What about a boxer like GGG, who is ambitious and has been an Undefeated Middleweight Champion for many years and seeks undisputed status??? He's been calling out the various Lineal Middleweight Champions for 7 years and the fans all agree the Lineal Champions were ducking him. And he still has to endure hearing his detractors like Floyd Mayweather tell the world that Canelo (who Floyd beat) would knock him out easily.

What about Gary Russell??? He's been the best Featherweight since Lomachenko left the division as a Featherweight Champion because the other top Freatherweights refused to fight him. Russell fought Lomachenko and his reward is that he can't get Santa Cruz, Mares, Selby, Frampton, or Cuellar to even consider fighting him. His supposed benefactor Al Haymon isn't helping him in that regard at all.

And what about Lomachenko? He's a 2 division World Champion but the other top Super Featherweights pretend he doesn't exist.

And what about Artur Beterbiev??? He's been a professional for 4 years and the other top Light Heavyweights are avoiding him like he's radioactive. He's got only 11 fights against guys he could beat 8 times a week. He finally got a fight lined up with Kovalev in Russia, a man he beat twice as an amateur, and Al Haymon put the kabash on the fight. Beterbiev could have gone through his 11 opponents in 6 months if he was matched as progressively as Mike Tyson (who had a much shorter amateur career) was matched. It's a massive waste of athletic potential and fighters are being cheated.

They all go screwed - this isn't a sport and no one owes anyone anything - you fight who you want to fight, period - your sense of justice is irrelevant, no one in the business signed-up to make you happy.

[Chuck1052]

If Charley Burley was working and residing in San Diego, California when receiving a call at work about an offer of a bout with Archie Moore at the Hollywood Legion Stadium that was scheduled to take place that evening, it would mean that Burley would have to leave work and find a way to travel to Hollywood, which is a trip of about 120 miles from San Diego.

I have a book about Burley which quotes Eddie Futch about this subject. Futch reckons someone pulled out of the main event with Moore after they failed the medical which was at noon. The fight was at 7pm that evening. They rang Burley at work and he took the fight, went home for his kit then took a 125 mile bus ride to the venue. If a 35mph limit was in place it would have taken him around 3.5 hours so not impossible.

It is not impossible that Charley Burley could have made the trip to Hollywood from San Diego if he got the call at noon while at work. But I still think it would be a tough spot for Burley to be in. However, it is very clear that Burley and Archie Moore were matched for at least four days before their bout took place on schedule, which was on Friday evening, April 21, 1944.

During World War II, workers were encouraged to work a lot of overtime at manufacturing plants. As a family man, Burley could have been quite eager to get a lot of overtime even if he was making some money in the fight game.

- Chuck Johnston