Joe Louis vs. Mike Tyson

[SaadOffTheDeck]

I'm surprised so many people think Tyson. I think Louis is a solid favorite here. Perhaps it's the passing years that have dulled his remarkable skills but I think he's at least a 3-2 favorite over Tyson.

I'm with you. 1 or 2 rounds? Gtfoh, Louis wasn't Steve zouski.

[walshb]

And he wasn't Pea Whitaker either. What happens when Mike lands a flush power shot? And there is no way he doesn't land that, and early. Louis is not some defensive whizz with Ali like feet.

[SaadOffTheDeck]

And he wasn't Pea Whitaker either. What happens when Mike lands a flush power shot? And there is no way he doesn't land that, and early. Louis is not some defensive whizz with Ali like feet.

Neither of them were. Joe did have one of histories best jabs and Tyson's lack of an inside game hurts him here. Mike was a tremendous puncher, but everything he touched didn't fall down. Zouski went 3.

[walshb]

And he wasn't Pea Whitaker either. What happens when Mike lands a flush power shot? And there is no way he doesn't land that, and early. Louis is not some defensive whizz with Ali like feet.

Neither of them were. Joe did have one of histories best jabs and Tyson's lack of an inside game hurts him here. Mike was a tremendous puncher, but everything he touched didn't fall down. Zouski went 3.

True, he couldn't KO everyone. I get that, but some of the men he didn't KO were a deal bigger than Louis. Joe is one I would back my house that he knocks out. 20 lbs bigger has to be factor, as does Joe getting knocked out by lesser hitters than Mike. It's all wrong for Louis. Tyson is a horrible match for him.

Take, for example the right hook-cross that Mike dropped Holmes with in 1988, the firs knock down. That's a punch that will likely get to Louis very early You think Louis at 200 lbs takes that?

Mike's beard was excellent. We know this. He took a helluva shot.

[Tomasino]

And he wasn't Pea Whitaker either. What happens when Mike lands a flush power shot? And there is no way he doesn't land that, and early. Louis is not some defensive whizz with Ali like feet.

Neither of them were. Joe did have one of histories best jabs and Tyson's lack of an inside game hurts him here. Mike was a tremendous puncher, but everything he touched didn't fall down. Zouski went 3.

True, he couldn't KO everyone. I get that, but some of the men he didn't KO were a deal bigger than Louis. Joe is one I would back my house that he knocks out. 20 lbs bigger has to be factor, as does Joe getting knocked out by lesser hitters than Mike. It's all wrong for Louis. Tyson is a horrible match for him.

Take, for example the right hook-cross that Mike dropped Holmes with in 1988, the firs knock down. That's a punch that will likely get to Louis very early You think Louis at 200 lbs takes that?

Mike's beard was excellent. We know this. He took a helluva shot.

Just to clarify, does more weight mean better chin?

[walshb]

Neither of them were. Joe did have one of histories best jabs and Tyson's lack of an inside game hurts him here. Mike was a tremendous puncher, but everything he touched didn't fall down. Zouski went 3.

True, he couldn't KO everyone. I get that, but some of the men he didn't KO were a deal bigger than Louis. Joe is one I would back my house that he knocks out. 20 lbs bigger has to be factor, as does Joe getting knocked out by lesser hitters than Mike. It's all wrong for Louis. Tyson is a horrible match for him.

Take, for example the right hook-cross that Mike dropped Holmes with in 1988, the firs knock down. That's a punch that will likely get to Louis very early You think Louis at 200 lbs takes that?

Mike's beard was excellent. We know this. He took a helluva shot.

Just to clarify, does more weight mean better chin?

Not all the time, but weight most definitely can play a part in how a punch is absorbed. That's why weights are in boxing.

Mike would KO any Featherweight ever, because he's that much bigger. Mike didn't KO every HW. Why? Well the men at HW are heavier and bigger, and can take more of a punch.

Louis at 200 lbs is IMO at a disadvantage if he gets tagged by Mike compared to a man 220-230-240 lbs....

I'd also bet that Mike would KO any CW fighter ever...Apart from maybe James Toney, who was just a freak of nature as regards chin. Plus, Toney's defene was top notch. I don't think any man could KO any version of Toney at any of his weights....

[SaadOffTheDeck]

And he wasn't Pea Whitaker either. What happens when Mike lands a flush power shot? And there is no way he doesn't land that, and early. Louis is not some defensive whizz with Ali like feet.

Neither of them were. Joe did have one of histories best jabs and Tyson's lack of an inside game hurts him here. Mike was a tremendous puncher, but everything he touched didn't fall down. Zouski went 3.

True, he couldn't KO everyone. I get that, but some of the men he didn't KO were a deal bigger than Louis. Joe is one I would back my house that he knocks out. 20 lbs bigger has to be factor, as does Joe getting knocked out by lesser hitters than Mike. It's all wrong for Louis. Tyson is a horrible match for him.

Take, for example the right hook-cross that Mike dropped Holmes with in 1988, the firs knock down. That's a punch that will likely get to Louis very early You think Louis at 200 lbs takes that?

Mike's beard was excellent. We know this. He took a helluva shot.

You're underestimating Louis, it's a close fight to call. Mike had a better chin, but if things didn't go his way he just took it like a man until he got stopped. Make no mistake, a 200 pound Louis could get him there. Max Baer was as big and powerful as Mike, not nearly as fast but Joe didnt crumble

[walshb]

Neither of them were. Joe did have one of histories best jabs and Tyson's lack of an inside game hurts him here. Mike was a tremendous puncher, but everything he touched didn't fall down. Zouski went 3.

True, he couldn't KO everyone. I get that, but some of the men he didn't KO were a deal bigger than Louis. Joe is one I would back my house that he knocks out. 20 lbs bigger has to be factor, as does Joe getting knocked out by lesser hitters than Mike. It's all wrong for Louis. Tyson is a horrible match for him.

Take, for example the right hook-cross that Mike dropped Holmes with in 1988, the firs knock down. That's a punch that will likely get to Louis very early You think Louis at 200 lbs takes that?

Mike's beard was excellent. We know this. He took a helluva shot.

You're underestimating Louis, it's a close fight to call. Mike had a better chin, but if things didn't go his way he just took it like a man until he got stopped. Make no mistake, a 200 pound Louis could get him there. Max Baer was as big and powerful as Mike, not nearly as fast but Joe didnt crumble

I am not underestimating Louis. He simply won't take Mike's shots. It's that simple. With a really good chin he could be very competitive. He doesn't have the chin or the size or the defense to last with a peak Tyson. Tysion gets to him clean and early. No way Louis gets past a couple of rds, and even if he did, Mike at peak could damn well box. Fit as a fiddle and boxed with men a lot bigger than Louis and won....

[Tomasino]

True, he couldn't KO everyone. I get that, but some of the men he didn't KO were a deal bigger than Louis. Joe is one I would back my house that he knocks out. 20 lbs bigger has to be factor, as does Joe getting knocked out by lesser hitters than Mike. It's all wrong for Louis. Tyson is a horrible match for him.

Take, for example the right hook-cross that Mike dropped Holmes with in 1988, the firs knock down. That's a punch that will likely get to Louis very early You think Louis at 200 lbs takes that?

Mike's beard was excellent. We know this. He took a helluva shot.

Just to clarify, does more weight mean better chin?

Not all the time, but weight most definitely can play a part in how a punch is absorbed. That's why weights are in boxing.

Mike would KO any Featherweight ever, because he's that much bigger. Mike didn't KO every HW. Why? Well the men at HW are heavier and bigger, and can take more of a punch.

Louis at 200 lbs is IMO at a disadvantage if he gets tagged by Mike compared to a man 220-230-240 lbs....

I'd also bet that Mike would KO any CW fighter ever...Apart from maybe James Toney, who was just a freak of nature as regards chin. Plus, Toney's defene was top notch. I don't think any man could KO any version of Toney at any of his weights....

How about Evander Holyfield? Or did he only beat Mike by adding some pounds?

[walshb]

Just to clarify, does more weight mean better chin?

Not all the time, but weight most definitely can play a part in how a punch is absorbed. That's why weights are in boxing.

Mike would KO any Featherweight ever, because he's that much bigger. Mike didn't KO every HW. Why? Well the men at HW are heavier and bigger, and can take more of a punch.

Louis at 200 lbs is IMO at a disadvantage if he gets tagged by Mike compared to a man 220-230-240 lbs....

I'd also bet that Mike would KO any CW fighter ever...Apart from maybe James Toney, who was just a freak of nature as regards chin. Plus, Toney's defene was top notch. I don't think any man could KO any version of Toney at any of his weights....

How about Evander Holyfield? Or did he only beat Mike by adding some pounds?

What has a 1996 Holyfield against a past prime post prison Tyson got to do with Louis and Tyson both at peak?

But, yes, Holyfield being 220 or so would have definitely helped him compared to him coming in at 200 lbs. That's the issue.

[Kalan]

Holyfield had a great chin, but was too confident in it... Louis was knocked down 11 times... Holyfield was knocked down 3 times by Bowe because he brawled with the much bigger and taller swinger.. When Holyfield boxed Bowe in the rematch he DIDN'T get knocked down and he won the fight..

WHY would you brawl with a brawler who has 30 pounds on you and is at least 2 inches taller??? Holyfield trading blows with Bowe was just as stupid as 174-pound Billy Conn trading punches with Joe Louis... Especially when you've got the man beat and you know damned well he's a dangerous hitter.

[Tomasino]

Not all the time, but weight most definitely can play a part in how a punch is absorbed. That's why weights are in boxing.

Mike would KO any Featherweight ever, because he's that much bigger. Mike didn't KO every HW. Why? Well the men at HW are heavier and bigger, and can take more of a punch.

Louis at 200 lbs is IMO at a disadvantage if he gets tagged by Mike compared to a man 220-230-240 lbs....

I'd also bet that Mike would KO any CW fighter ever...Apart from maybe James Toney, who was just a freak of nature as regards chin. Plus, Toney's defene was top notch. I don't think any man could KO any version of Toney at any of his weights....

How about Evander Holyfield? Or did he only beat Mike by adding some pounds?

What has a 1996 Holyfield against a past prime post prison Tyson got to do with Louis and Tyson both at peak?

But, yes, Holyfield being 220 or so would have definitely helped him compared to him coming in at 200 lbs. That's the issue.

I'm just trying to work out your logic before debating, that's all. I'd pick Evander at 200lb to beat peak Mike and Joe to knock him out around rnds 9-11.

[gilgamesh]

I think Joe probably gets knocked down and troubled quite a bit early, but weathers the storm and precedes to bust up Mike with his jab and either stop him late in the fight or win a decision.

It'd be a lot of fun though, and a very interesting fight to imagine.

[DaveyMac]

Not all the time, but weight most definitely can play a part in how a punch is absorbed. That's why weights are in boxing.

Mike would KO any Featherweight ever, because he's that much bigger. Mike didn't KO every HW. Why? Well the men at HW are heavier and bigger, and can take more of a punch.

Louis at 200 lbs is IMO at a disadvantage if he gets tagged by Mike compared to a man 220-230-240 lbs....

I'd also bet that Mike would KO any CW fighter ever...Apart from maybe James Toney, who was just a freak of nature as regards chin. Plus, Toney's defene was top notch. I don't think any man could KO any version of Toney at any of his weights....

How about Evander Holyfield? Or did he only beat Mike by adding some pounds?

What has a 1996 Holyfield against a past prime post prison Tyson got to do with Louis and Tyson both at peak?

But, yes, Holyfield being 220 or so would have definitely helped him compared to him coming in at 200 lbs. That's the issue.

Holyfield is 4 years older than Mike. If Mike was past his prime and Holyfield wasn't doesn't that speak to Mike's messed up lifestyle?
Louis and Ali are the greatest HW ever and they are similar enough that comparing them is splitting hairs. Tyson may be the best of the sort of Sonny Liston, George Foreman school, (although I'm not convinced of it) but that school is a grade below Ali and Louis.
Maybe Mike gets lucky and hurts Louis, but if he doesn't he loses easy.
And while we are on chins....Mike's was his biggest downfall no?
I don't care how old he got there is never a day Kevin McBride beats Joe Louis. :)

[Kalan]

Holyfield is 4 years older than Mike. If Mike was past his prime and Holyfield wasn't doesn't that speak to Mike's messed up lifestyle?
Louis and Ali are the greatest HW ever and they are similar enough that comparing them is splitting hairs. Tyson may be the best of the sort of Sonny Liston, George Foreman school, (although I'm not convinced of it) but that school is a grade below Ali and Louis.
Maybe Mike gets lucky and hurts Louis, but if he doesn't he loses easy.
And while we are on chins....Mike's was his biggest downfall no?
I don't care how old he got there is never a day Kevin McBride beats Joe Louis. :)

The day would come for Louis if he were a doddering 39... Mike faced McBride just short of his 39th birthday. He was a gone goose versus Kevin McBride. Louis was even more messed up in his late 30’s than Tyson was. Louis looked ridiculous as he aged into his late 30's after Jack Blackburn died.

There weren't any real Heavyweights following World War II... From WWII on everyone Louis fought weighed in the 180's and 190's... In fact Louis's last 15 opponents were all under 200 pounds. Tyson's last 15 opponents averaged about 225. The 3 boxers who beat Louis weighed 192, 184, and 184... Louis fought in an era of small and unskilled Heavyweights. In fact, Michael Spinks made a much bigger Heavyweight than anyone Louis fought post war.. At 212 Spinks was so vulnerable he couldn't last 90 seconds with Tyson before being smashed into dreamland for his one and only loss.. Billy Conn had many losses and he weighed only 174 for a young Joe Louis.. Conn out-boxed Louis for 12 rounds, using hand speed similar to what Mike Tyson was noted for -- but with a fraction of the power. If Conn could hit Louis so easily the Tyson who fought Michael Spinks certainly could reach him.

Louis and Ali are were as different as day and night.. Louis was an aggressive fighter, a body banger, and a big puncher.. Ali wasn't any of that.. Ali was a mover, a dancer, a head hunter, a clincher, a wrestler, and he laid on the ropes taking punishment, trying to wear you out.. Louis didn't use those strategies and that's hardly splitting hairs.. Louis was a very humble and respectful individual -- Ali was a loud mouthed braggart who crowed about his good looks and his fistic prowess. He got beat too.

Mike Tyson was nothing like Sonny Liston or George Foreman.. Mike didn't have long arms and didn't focus on the jab.. He was an attacker like Joe Frazier – except Mike was a lot bigger and stronger and could punch with both hands. Foreman weighed 217 for his peak fight with Frazier. Tyson weighed 218 for his peak fight with Spinks.

If you switched their 2 opponents it’s still a 1-round job with Young Iron Mike crushing Smokin’ Joe - but there’s a possibility Michael Spinks out-boxes Foreman with his superb jab like Jimmy Young did .... You see, a young George didn’t slip masterful jabs and clever right counters with expert finesse. Foreman didn’t put his head on boxers so he could crush them with mauling shots like Tyson did. George kept his distance and jabbed and swung at you. That gave boxers a better chance to finesse him and counter. Mike was in your face.

[jas80s]

Mike Tyson had plenty of weaknesses in the ring. Cross era match ups are impossible to call with certainty, but there are plenty of ways that Louis could be competitive here. Tyson had the kind of ability that of course he could win, but Mike Tyson beating a great fighter is conjecture....since he never did it. I think if Louis could make him fight backing up at all, he's fine.

i should mention, that I tend to normalize the size difference in these types of match ups; in other words, I tend to think of what might happen in a fight between the two if they were roughly the same size. Which you have to believe they would be IF they had fought in the same era.

If fighter A wins over fighter B because he is 20-25 pounds heavier, what does that prove about either fighter's abilities in the ring?

[jbizzle20]

Joe Louis was from an era where Heavyweights resemble the current day Crusierweights in size.

In historical terms, its a 190-200lb Louis against a 220lb Tyson. I couldn't see a much smaller Louis KO-ing Tyson.
If it were a Jou Louis by 1980s physical standards and they were comparable in size I would favour Louis.... however as they were its Tyson by KO.

The smaller 195lb Roy Jones did beat Ruiz in 2003, but it was punch and run... and John Ruiz was no prime Tyson

Yes, we have to recognize evolution if we are going to match up fighters with a big gap in between eras. Using 1986 Tyson for comparison, Louis could most certainly hold his own but he never fought a guy that heavy who is that fast and powerful with such advanced defensive technique. I see this as similar to Tyson-Holmes. Louis hangs tough for a few rounds, countering a couple times and landing a few good shots, but is ultimately outmatched and goes down for the KO.

[SaadOffTheDeck]

True, he couldn't KO everyone. I get that, but some of the men he didn't KO were a deal bigger than Louis. Joe is one I would back my house that he knocks out. 20 lbs bigger has to be factor, as does Joe getting knocked out by lesser hitters than Mike. It's all wrong for Louis. Tyson is a horrible match for him.

Take, for example the right hook-cross that Mike dropped Holmes with in 1988, the firs knock down. That's a punch that will likely get to Louis very early You think Louis at 200 lbs takes that?

Mike's beard was excellent. We know this. He took a helluva shot.

You're underestimating Louis, it's a close fight to call. Mike had a better chin, but if things didn't go his way he just took it like a man until he got stopped. Make no mistake, a 200 pound Louis could get him there. Max Baer was as big and powerful as Mike, not nearly as fast but Joe didnt crumble

I am not underestimating Louis. He simply won't take Mike's shots. It's that simple. With a really good chin he could be very competitive. He doesn't have the chin or the size or the defense to last with a peak Tyson. Tysion gets to him clean and early. No way Louis gets past a couple of rds, and even if he did, Mike at peak could damn well box. Fit as a fiddle and boxed with men a lot bigger than Louis and won....

That's what people said about evander.

[Tomasino]

I have never, ever, heard a boxer say the reason he will beat an opponent is due to weight. I didn't hear Mike scoff at Evanders size when he was ducking him during his vaunted 'prime'.

[Kalan]

You're underestimating Louis, it's a close fight to call. Mike had a better chin, but if things didn't go his way he just took it like a man until he got stopped. Make no mistake, a 200 pound Louis could get him there. Max Baer was as big and powerful as Mike, not nearly as fast but Joe didnt crumble

I am not underestimating Louis. He simply won't take Mike's shots. It's that simple. With a really good chin he could be very competitive. He doesn't have the chin or the size or the defense to last with a peak Tyson. Tysion gets to him clean and early. No way Louis gets past a couple of rds, and even if he did, Mike at peak could damn well box. Fit as a fiddle and boxed with men a lot bigger than Louis and won....

That's what people said about evander.

Evander was just as big and strong as Mike was – and in his peak year in the business...

Holyfield caught Tyson at the perfect time when he was peaking in physical strength.. Evander was also a brutal infighter with his indomitable head – and the inside game is where Mike Tyson lived.. Evander was able to stay even with Tyson on the inside like very few Heavyweights his size in history could have.. Whenever the fight moved outside Evander had the distinct advantage. So there was no possible way Tyson was beating Holy minus a lucky punch.

A Louis-Tyson matchup is completely different. Louis could outbox Tyson if Mike stayed off him – say like George Foreman stayed off Jimmy Young. George didn’t put a head on you. George was tall with long arms. Why would he be an infighter? Foreman used an inept power jab and big swings to cut you down. Young was able to pink George to death. He finessed everything Foreman threw at him and boxed the piss out of him.

Tyson was an attacker. He would be on Jimmy Young and smash him like a roach. Like Mike did Holmes, Williams, Briggs, Berbick, Spinks, and any other medium sized boxer he faced. Mike overpowered any boxer who didn’t have massive size, height, strength, and skills. Evander was the exception but he had 3 inches on Mike – and Evander was unbelievably strong that particular year at 218. He peaked. If Mike fought the Holy who fought Moorer it’s a different fight. I have no idea what Evander was doing when Moorer beat him, but he looked like crap.

Generally, if you lacked great size, height, strength, power, quickness, and good skills, Iron Mike ran over you like you didn’t exit – exactly what he’d do to a 200 pound Louis. If you think Louis was this wonderful master boxer, watch the Conn fight ... bearing in mind, Conn was no better than Michael Spinks.

[L.A. kidd]

louis i think, was a great champion, but, what really was the quality of his opponets? his " bum of the month club" rocky marciano almost killed him, mike tyson would have hurt joe louis , if jimmy braddock could knock him down, what would tyson do to him ?? tyson by a knockout, rd 1

[SaadOffTheDeck]

Joe's title opposition was better than Mike's.

[Seamus]

Watch the tape of a 25 yr old Joe Louis vs Pudgy Tony Galento. The fat guy, who I'm guessing wasn't as fast as Tyson had a prime Louis eating left hooks before he was stopped. I guess in Louis' defense you could say he could take punishment pretty well, and a peak Tyson would certainly oblige him in that area.

[walshb]

Watch the tape of a 25 yr old Joe Louis vs Pudgy Tony Galento. The fat guy, who I'm guessing wasn't as fast as Tyson had a prime Louis eating left hooks before he was stopped. I guess in Louis' defense you could say he could take punishment pretty well, and a peak Tyson would certainly oblige him in that area.

It's kind of what I am asking? How the hell does Joe survive and take Tyson's very vicious power shots, and he absolutely will land on Louis cleanly. He hits too fast and too hard for Louis, and that 20 lbs will be used. For Louis to win he has to last the distance here, and in doing so we are assuming that either Tyson doesn't land clean or Louis takes the clean shots, survives and goes on to win via points or late stoppage.....not a hope..

[walshb]

Joe's title opposition was better than Mike's.

Even if true Mike would have annihilated all of Joe's victims. None would have come close to beating him.