Arcel and Steward said Ray Robinson was protected

[Chuck1052]

While being a truly great fighter, Charley Burley never was as dominant as a vintage Sugar Ray Robinson. As a result, I do not hesitate in saying that Robinson was a better fighter than Burley.

On the day of his fight with Archie Moore in Hollywood, Burley probably had to be at the weigh-in. The weigh-ins usually take place a few hours before a boxing show. That is one reason why I don't think that Burley was working at his regular job in San Diego on the day of the bout.

- Chuck Johnston

[Kalan]

While being a truly great fighter, Charley Burley never was as dominant as a vintage Sugar Ray Robinson. As a result, I do not hesitate in saying that Robinson was a better fighter than Burley.

On the day of his fight with Archie Moore in Hollywood, Burley probably had to be at the weigh-in. The weigh-ins usually take place a few hours before a boxing show. That is one reason why I don't think that Burley was working at his regular job in San Diego on the day of the bout.

- Chuck Johnston

Robinson wasn't an extremely dominant Middleweight. His record in Middleweight Title Defenses was only 3-3.. with 2 KO wins... Your opinion that SRR was a better fighter than Burley isn't the opinion of a top expert... Archie Moore was a Boxing expert. So was Ray Arcel and so was Eddie Futch.. They all said Burley was the best fighter they ever saw or the greatest fighter of all time.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P9nBxAuwV8U as noted at 2:58 of this video.

[APerno]

Just watched this video - first time I have seen Burley fight - what kept coming to mind was that this guy is as annoying/difficult to fight as Pernell Whitaker.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=81non05aKX4

[Controversial]

Just watched this video - first time I have seen Burley fight - what kept coming to mind was that this guy is as annoying/difficult to fight as Pernell Whitaker.

Yes he was. It's a real shame he never got his shot but from what I've read he refused to play the game of getting involved with dodgy deals and throwing fights. Plus of course he was a great fighter, that was not only hard to beat, but hard to look good against too. By all accounts he was offered a series of fights with SRR as long as he threw the first one.

Never stopped in 98 fights and although he lost 12 times a few reports of these losses say he should've won some of these fights. His first loss to Zivic as an example was widely reported as being a bad decision. He beat Zivic twice in the rematches and his contract was eventually owned by Zivic when Zivic was WW champ. No surprise he never got his title shot against him and was forced to fight bigger guys.

He beat three future world champions at three different weights, Fritzie Zivic (welterweight champ), Billy Soose (middleweight champ) and Archie Moore (light-heavyweight champ).

Wins over Fritzie Zivic, Cocoa Kid, Holman Williams, Jack Chase, Aaron Wade, Billy Soose, Archie Moore and Bert Lytell. Plus other wins over fighters who were top 10 ranked at the time such as Nate Bolden, Antonio Fernandez, Joe Carter and Billy Smith

'Ring Magazine' had him in their top 10 for 100 months (from September 1938 to August 1947)

Here are most of the 10 rounds against Oakland Billy Smith in 1946 which Burley won on points. Smith outweighed Burley by 12lbs. I think this is the only footage of him fighting (no sound).


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gp9lkBqm6bQ

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zYFu7s37md4

[Kalan]

It's pathetic that this film is such low quality and that there aren't more fights available to witness Charley Burley's amazing artistry as the best of his era.

It's also pathetic that he had to hold down day jobs for his whole career and go begging for fights... He said he would have boxed for free because he loved it.

[Chuck1052]

While being a truly great fighter, Charley Burley never was as dominant as a vintage Sugar Ray Robinson. As a result, I do not hesitate in saying that Robinson was a better fighter than Burley.

On the day of his fight with Archie Moore in Hollywood, Burley probably had to be at the weigh-in. The weigh-ins usually take place a few hours before a boxing show. That is one reason why I don't think that Burley was working at his regular job in San Diego on the day of the bout.

- Chuck Johnston

Robinson wasn't an extremely dominant Middleweight. His record in Middleweight Title Defenses was only 3-3.. with 2 KO wins... Your opinion that SRR was a better fighter than Burley isn't the opinion of a top expert... Archie Moore was a Boxing expert. So was Ray Arcel and so was Eddie Futch.. They all said Burley was the best fighter they ever saw or the greatest fighter of all time.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P9nBxAuwV8U as noted at 2:58 of this video.

I know that Sugar Ray Robinson was not that dominant as a middleweight during the 1950s. He was in his thirties and had some wear-and-tear on him at the time despite remaining a tremendous fighter. But Robinson was very dominant as a welterweight during the 1940s. Charley Burley never came close to being as dominant.

- Chuck Johnston

[Controversial]

While being a truly great fighter, Charley Burley never was as dominant as a vintage Sugar Ray Robinson. As a result, I do not hesitate in saying that Robinson was a better fighter than Burley.

On the day of his fight with Archie Moore in Hollywood, Burley probably had to be at the weigh-in. The weigh-ins usually take place a few hours before a boxing show. That is one reason why I don't think that Burley was working at his regular job in San Diego on the day of the bout.

- Chuck Johnston

Robinson wasn't an extremely dominant Middleweight. His record in Middleweight Title Defenses was only 3-3.. with 2 KO wins... Your opinion that SRR was a better fighter than Burley isn't the opinion of a top expert... Archie Moore was a Boxing expert. So was Ray Arcel and so was Eddie Futch.. They all said Burley was the best fighter they ever saw or the greatest fighter of all time.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P9nBxAuwV8U as noted at 2:58 of this video.

I know that Sugar Ray Robinson was not that dominant as a middleweight during the 1950s. He was in his thirties and had some wear-and-tear on him at the time despite remaining a tremendous fighter. But Robinson was very dominant as a welterweight during the 1940s. Charley Burley never came close to being as dominant.

- Chuck Johnston

That wasn't without trying. Burley was frozen out the welterweight division and forced to fight bigger guys. Zivic was given a title shot ahead of him and Zivics manager bought Burley's contract therefore ensuring the champ wouldn't have to fight him again. Of course Zivic lost the title to Cochrane about nine months after winning it from Armstrong, the Cochrane fight was said by many to be one of the most fixed fights in history, and from 1941-46 Cochrane held onto the welterweight crown without making one defence because of WW2. So no-one had any chance of wining the WW title. Burley not only had Zivic's number he would've boxed circles around Cochrane, title shots against either of those, or Armstrong for the matter, and Burley would've be WW world champ.

[Chuck1052]

While having a fine start during the first four years of his professional career, Charley Burley did have some early losses to Eddie Dolan (139 pounds) , Fritzie Zivic (148 1/4 pounds), Jimmy Leto (146 1/4 pounds) and Holman Williams (148 pounds) during that time. In those bouts, Burley outweighed Dolan by 9 pounds, Leto by a pound and Williams by 7 pounds while Zivic outweighed him by 1/2 of a pound.

From 1940 to 1944, Sugar Ray Robinson lost only once, which was to Jake LaMotta on February 5, 1942. LaMotta outweighed Robinson by 16 pounds in that bout. In fact, Robinson's second loss was to Randy Turpin on July 10, 1951. Yes, Robinson was more dominant than Burley.

- Chuck Johnston

[elmersalsa]

The way I see the great Charley Burley's style reminds me the same style of the great Roy Jones, Jr but, with less power.

[Chuck1052]

The way I see the great Charley Burley's style reminds me the same style of the great Roy Jones, Jr but, with less power.

Compared to Roy Jones, Jr., Charley Burley was much more fundamentally sound as a boxer, faced better competition and was much more durable.

- Chuck Johnston

[Kalan]

Jake LaMotta beat Sugar Ray Robinson in 1943... LaMotta knocked Robinson down in 2 different fights that year. On the same night Charley Burley dominated Archie Moore with 4 knockdowns - winning 9 of 10 rounds - Lloyd Marshall gave Jake LaMotta a terrific beating in a dominating victory over him.

Following his shiittkicking at the hands of Burley, Archie Moore won his next 13 fights in a row over the next 14 months – culminating in 2 dominating victories over Lloyd Marshall, at that time one of the best fighters in the world.. In their 2nd fight Moore knocked Marshall out in the final round, knocking him to the canvas 3 times before finally subduing him.. Moore felt on top of the world with the 2 Marshall victories. Things had been going extremely well for him.

But to tell you how brutal this sport could be in those days, Moore was next matched with Heavyweight Jimmy Bivins, who out-weighed him 186 to 168.. Boxrec’s description of that fight follows: “Moore was knocked down three times in the 2nd round. He was counted out on the 3rd trip down, but was hit with an uppercut while he was on the floor. The judges decided to give Moore a five minute rest and awarded him the round on a foul. Moore was dropped twice more in the 5th, and once more in the 6th for the count.”

Damn!!! ... It was not Archie’s night.

[Controversial]

While having a fine start during the first four years of his professional career, Charley Burley did have some early losses to Eddie Dolan (139 pounds) , Fritzie Zivic (148 1/4 pounds), Jimmy Leto (146 1/4 pounds) and Holman Williams (148 pounds) during that time. In those bouts, Burley outweighed Dolan by 9 pounds, Leto by a pound and Williams by 7 pounds while Zivic outweighed him by 1/2 of a pound.

From 1940 to 1944, Sugar Ray Robinson lost only once, which was to Jake LaMotta on February 5, 1942. LaMotta outweighed Robinson by 16 pounds in that bout. In fact, Robinson's second loss was to Randy Turpin on July 10, 1951. Yes, Robinson was more dominant than Burley.

- Chuck Johnston

Except that he beat Zivic in their first fight according to reports of the fight and should've got the decision. As said before Burley was forced out of the WW division as the champ owned his contract which blocked him from fighting for the title and then the WW title was frozen for five years during WW2.

Of course SRR record looks far better but maybe it wouldn't have been so great if he had to fight guys like Ezzard Charles, Archie Moore, Jimmy Bivins, Holman Williams, Cocoa Kid and Lloyd Marshall.



.

[Cojimar 1946]

By my count the only top 10 guy Bowe ever beat aside from Holyfield is Tony Tubbs. It's easy to look good against guys like Donald, Hide, etc but these guys were not very good. Who did Hide, Seldon, Donald, Gonzalez, etc ever beat that would make them credible opponents? Guys like Witherspoon, Ruddock, and McCall would have easily disposed of the guys Bowe beat.

Burley clearly has more wins over credible opponents than Bowe does.

[Kalan]

Excellent point!

[Kalan]

While having a fine start during the first four years of his professional career, Charley Burley did have some early losses to Eddie Dolan (139 pounds) , Fritzie Zivic (148 1/4 pounds), Jimmy Leto (146 1/4 pounds) and Holman Williams (148 pounds) during that time. In those bouts, Burley outweighed Dolan by 9 pounds, Leto by a pound and Williams by 7 pounds while Zivic outweighed him by 1/2 of a pound.

From 1940 to 1944, Sugar Ray Robinson lost only once, which was to Jake LaMotta on February 5, 1942. LaMotta outweighed Robinson by 16 pounds in that bout. In fact, Robinson's second loss was to Randy Turpin on July 10, 1951. Yes, Robinson was more dominant than Burley.

- Chuck Johnston

Except that he beat Zivic in their first fight according to reports of the fight and should've got the decision. As said before Burley was forced out of the WW division as the champ owned his contract which blocked him from fighting for the title and then the WW title was frozen for five years during WW2.

Of course SRR record looks far better but maybe it wouldn't have been so great if he had to fight guys like Ezzard Charles, Archie Moore, Jimmy Bivins, Holman Williams, Cocoa Kid and Lloyd Marshall.

Excellent point!

And add to that the fact that Robinson didn't fight many impressive Welterweights... He won a vacant 147 title by beating a guy he easily beat before... His first Title Defense at 147 was against a guy who was knocked and nearly killed the previous year. Robinson was deathly afraid that he would kill him and extremely reluctant to fight him... His 2nd Title Defense came against a very mediocre opponent... His 5th and last Welterweight challenger was a manipulated fight, which was suspected and Robinson admitted to in his autobiography... Robinson was friends with Jim Norris who was a very shady character and notorious fight fixer... Robinson's only name Welterweight challenger was Kid Gavilan, who was a very light hitter with 6 losses -- who lost to Lightweight Ike Williams the previous year.

[Ambling Alp II]

By my count the only top 10 guy Bowe ever beat aside from Holyfield is Tony Tubbs. It's easy to look good against guys like Donald, Hide, etc but these guys were not very good. Who did Hide, Seldon, Donald, Gonzalez, etc ever beat that would make them credible opponents? Guys like Witherspoon, Ruddock, and McCall would have easily disposed of the guys Bowe beat.

Burley clearly has more wins over credible opponents than Bowe does.

Well your count would be wrong. Hide and Gonzalez were ranked in the Top 10 when Bowe beat them. Coetzer was by some of the WBS organizations.
btw- Cooper had Holyfield in serious trouble; Bowe stopped Cooper easily in two rounds.

Of course Burely beat better competition than Bowe. I don't think anyone is arguing that. However Evander Holyfield didn't beat nearly as good of competition as Ray Robinson.
The first Bowe-Holyfield fight was considered a fight that could go either way.
Your whole comparison of Bowe and Holyfield with Burley and Robinson makes almost no sense.

Probably most importantly, overall Robinson beat much better than competition than Burley. Burley also lost several fights in his prime to non-great fighters.

[APerno]

You have to throw one more factor into this mix, that does not involve either Burley or Robinson --- for Arcel and Steward to claim that Robinson (one of the greatest fighters ever) was being protected amplifies their own importance to the game; to their fighters - there is in their claim, an unspoken self-aggrandizement, which dampens the validity of the statements.

[Kalan]

Overall Robinson beat much better than competition than Burley

That's a ridiculous and untrue statement... Robinson never beat anyone as skilled as Holman Williams or Archie Moore in his life -- but more than that, Burley also sought out dangerous fighters like Ezzard Charles and Lloyd Marshall who Robinson would never dream of fighting -- and Robinson would never dream of fighting Charley Burley either... As Arcel and Steward contended, Robinson was a protected ducker.

Robinson sought out the most mediocre boxers and the lightest hitters so he could avoid danger while padding up his record like a fatted calf.

[elmersalsa]

By reviewing the career of the great Charley Burley, I see that he accomplished a lot even though he didn't win a world title. But, he beat 5 terrific boxers that were very, very good. All of them are in the hall:
Archie Moore
Holman Williams
Cocoa Kid
Billy Soose
Fritzie Zivic

That's a great damn company! Plus, he fought with Ezzard Charles, Jimmy Bivins and Lloyd Marshall in losing efforts, but, those guys were light-heavyweights while Burley was a welterweight. Had some unbeaten streaks, and was never stopped in 98 bouts.

I had him at #60 in my personal p4p all time list, but, he should be higher. So in much consideration, and the way top champions and contenders ignored him, he is listed at #32 now in my list. Great fighter Burley was!

[Ambling Alp II]

Interesting. Where should Bery Lytell and Charley Williams, be ranked?
Lou Ambers beat 5 and you don't even have him in the Top 100.

Armstrong (whom you have #1)
Canzoneri
Arizmendi
Zivic (never lost to Zivic, unlike some people we could mention)
Cocoa Kid

[elmersalsa]

Interesting. Where should Bery Lytell and Charley Williams, be ranked?
Lou Ambers beat 5 and you don't even have him in the Top 100.

Armstrong (whom you have #1)
Canzoneri
Arizmendi
Zivic (never lost to Zivic, unlike some people we could mention)
Cocoa Kid

Baby Arizmendi and the great Tony Canzoneri were not in their primes when Lou Ambers beat him. He recovered the lightweight crown because the judges blackmailed the great Henry Armstrong in the second fight.

Ambers is a borderline top 100 ATG pound per pound. At least his credentials were better than Oscar De La Hoya. See, too many fighters that deserve to be top 100 aren't in, and they were better than the De La Hoyas, the Felix "Tito" Trinidads and the Lennox Lewises.

How about Young Corbett III? He beat a great deal of good fighters.

[Ambling Alp II]

Total nonsense about Canzoneri not being in their primes when Ambers beat them.

Canzoneri was just 27 when Ambers beat him the first time. Canzoneri had just beaten McLarnin four months before this fight.

Arizmendi was just 22 years old when Ambers beat him the first time. He was just 25 when Ambers beat him the second time. They were born in the same year.

Ambers is not a borderline Top 100 fighter. He is a clear Top 50 fighter.

[elmersalsa]

Total nonsense about Canzoneri not being in their primes when Ambers beat them.

Canzoneri was just 27 when Ambers beat him the first time. Canzoneri had just beaten McLarnin four months before this fight.

Arizmendi was just 22 years old when Ambers beat him the first time. He was just 25 when Ambers beat him the second time. They were born in the same year.

Ambers is not a borderline Top 100 fighter. He is a clear Top 50 fighter.

Lou Ambers was a great lightweight. Not a top 50 ATG pound per pound consideration.

[Ambling Alp II]

Of course he is. Now that you know that Arizmendi and Canzoneri were in their pries when Ambers beat them, it should be obvious. Using your own logic for Charley Burley shows this.

You made a big deal of Burley defeating 5 Hall of Famers. Amber not only did this as well, but he beat better Hall of Famers.

Burley beat Cocoa Kid. So did Ambers.
Burley beat Zivic. (And lost to him.) Ambers beat Zivic.
Burley beat Billy Soose. soose wasn't as good as Arizmendi whom Ambers beat.
Burley beat Holman Williams. According to you own rankings, Canzoneri was better than Williams. Ambers beat Canzoneri.
Burley beat Moore. Ambers beat Armstrong, who according to your own rankings, was better than Moore. In fact you have Armstrong # 1 all time. Ambers beat Armstrong.

If Burley is in your Top 50, Ambers should easily be in it.
Let see you put two and two together this time.

[Kalan]

Of course he is. Now that you know that Arizmendi and Canzoneri were in their pries when Ambers beat them, it should be obvious. Using your own logic for Charley Burley shows this.

You made a big deal of Burley defeating 5 Hall of Famers. Amber not only did this as well, but he beat better Hall of Famers.

Burley beat Cocoa Kid. So did Ambers.
Burley beat Zivic. (And lost to him.) Ambers beat Zivic.
Burley beat Billy Soose. soose wasn't as good as Arizmendi whom Ambers beat.
Burley beat Holman Williams. According to you own rankings, Canzoneri was better than Williams. Ambers beat Canzoneri.
Burley beat Moore. Ambers beat Armstrong, who according to your own rankings, was better than Moore. In fact you have Armstrong # 1 all time. Ambers beat Armstrong.

If Burley is in your Top 50, Ambers should easily be in it.
Let see you put two and two together this time.

The problem with that kind of shoddy analysis is, it doesn't take into account somebody's boxing and punching abilities.

Neither Ambers or Armstrong could box well.. Burley was a MASTER.. At his peak nobody could hit Burley with a decent punch.. Both Ambers and Armstrong suffered bad beatings and stoppages -- like a couple punks.. Burley wouldn't dream of taking a beating or being stopped by anybody.. Just couldn't happen.