Rocky Marciano vrs Archie Moore-Just Seconds Away from KO?

[Tony1244]

Back in the 1970's,watching old boxing filmed bouts was just not available for the average boxing fan to watch.
But I remember around 1978 reading an article/interview about Archie Moore in one of the Sunday newspaper supplement magazines,
were he had claimed that the referee Harry Kessler had interfered and got in his way of a sure knock out of Rocky Marciano
when Moore had knocked Marciano down in round Two of their title fight.
Apparently the standing 8 count had been waved for the fight for some reason.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=_pPfPUQopfg

In the 1970s in my youth, The Ring Magazine advertised the old fights on I believe 8 mm film.

I remember thinking when I grow up, I'm going to get me a projector and these fights.

[Caractacus]

Hey,I'm the same age as you (56) and I had a Super8 mm film projector.
I bought it in a thrift shop for about 25 dollars back around 1975.
Trouble was it was hard to find super 8 mm boxing films anywhere.( or I just overlooked them maybe at the time)
Remember the camera department in stores like K-Mart and others had
sold all those reels of film ?
I bought some short reels (B/W) of classic films
like War of the Worlds,The Day the Earth Stood Still,Reptilicus,tHE Seventh Voyage of Sinbad.

[Caractacus]

Didn't sound bad-ass to me... Sounded rehearsed and programmed...like an uneducated mug with a stuffy nose reading from a script...

Frank Bruno sounded bad-assed.. Like he was talking from the bottom of a well... Lennox Lewis sounded namby pamby like Mike Tyson. I don't go by the voice.

I think the Rock would have been great if they had cast him instead of Jason Robards as Al Capone in the 1967 movie
THE SAINT VALENTINES DAY MASSACRE.especially when Al got kind of angry.But of course the Rock would have never accepted
a film role like that.

[Kalan]

He wouldn't have been cast in a role like that in a million years... I saw Marciano act in a couple movies and he was really terrible... He wasn't camera shy, but he had no range, emotions, or acting skills. He was white bread and water. Scripted, rehearsed looking, and dry as a bone. Even Dempsey was better because he had a poor man's Clark Gable kind of presence. Patterson appeared on Wild Wild West with Robert Conrad and did a fair job, but he smiled too much. A little bitty smile like he was aware of the camera.

Ray Robinson appeared on Mission Impossible and was really bad. His ring charisma was nowhere in evidence with a suit on. Jerry Quarry acted in Land of the Giants and Knight Rider. He was embarrassingly bad with no personality at all. Ray Mancini was awful - seemed insecure. Nino Benvenuti and Marvin Hagler acted in Italian films but I never saw them. Maybe the best Actor among boxers was Tony Danza but he didn't have much of a boxing career. Archie Moore did a good job in "The Adventures of Huckleberry Finn" as runaway slave Jim so he was about the best I can remember.

The thing a great actor needs is a commanding presence like Marilyn Monroe or Robert Mitchum -- and the ability to forget who they are and take on the personality, voice, mannerisms, traits, and quirks of the character they're playing. They actually suspend your disbelief. They're so gifted they make you cry or laugh or get angry or excited as though it's all really happening. If they just stand there like a fukstick reciting lines they don't transport you and there's no entertainment value.

[Caractacus]

I'm pretty sure the Clark Gable image by the Studios was sort of pattered after Jack Dempsey.
They were pretty much of the same stock from the Western Virginia area
(okay,Clark Gable was actually from Cadiz Ohio,but its just a few miles from the West Virginia border)
( see what I mean and check out the Manassa Mauler at about 4:30 of this clip.)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wuLWvYRpVR4

[Kalan]

Cosell was a despicable man. I find it interesting that Cosell asked leading questions -- and then he dismissed Dempsey's non-committal answers because they weren't what he wanted to hear. He asked "Did you see a knockout punch?" Not getting the answer he wanted from Dempsey Cosell said "You said you didn’t watch the fight because you suspected something like this might happen." After Dempsey corrected him on that misstatement Cosell asked non-expert Bill Heinz, "Do you think there was a sufficiency of force in that punch to knock out Liston?" and he got the answer he wanted.

Dempsey actually said, "I saw the punch. Not being on the receiving end of the punch you never know how hard these punches go over – but I DID see the punch." ... Cosell clearly didn't like that answer... Bill Heinz said "If Liston was knocked out by that punch he should be in the Mayo Clinic. If he wasn't knocked out he should be in absentia” to which Cosell answered “Where I think he will be from here on in.”

Marciano also refused to imply Liston faked the KO, comparing it to the very short arm punch Archie Moore caught him with. Rocky said, “It could have hit him in a good spot, and just confused him very much.” ... Doesn’t sound like Sonny faked the knockdown.

Add to that, Liston never got a count from Walcott and got to his feet when Ali was a safe distance from him. Walcott wiped his gloves off and Liston squared off to fight. Ali attacked Sonny with several follow up punches that Liston easily ducked and slipped... Those are NOT the actions of a boxer who is intent on throwing a boxing match, or one who is badly hurt... Nevertheless, every boxing commission in America revoked his license to box. What a bunch of bastards.

[Kalan]

At 2:11 of this video you see Liston go down to the canvas from a short Ali right https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hb2WFHhXDyw-- the type of blow Archie floored Rocky with... Sonny doesn't go down hard or allow his head to bounce on the canvas -- which is what happens if you're unconscious for a couple seconds -- so he wasn't badly hurt. He gets up at 2:21 having been down more than 10 seconds -- but not receiving any count from referee Walcott, how would he know he was down for more than 10 seconds??? The count is supposed to be suspended anyway, if a boxer refuses to go to a neutral corner. Notice Ali never stayed in a neutral corner and wasn't in one when Walcott was wiping Liston's gloves off. Walcott wasn't ordering him to one, realizing that Ali was incorrigible.

Referee Walcott, and both Ali and Liston, all thought the fight was still on... Nat Fleischer was screaming at Walcott.. Walcott had not ordered "Box" but he goes over to talk to Fleischer and the timekeeper.. They're telling him Liston had been down longer than 10 seconds.. Meanwhile Ali and Liston square off to fight and Ali attacks Liston with a series of follow up punches which Liston easily ducks and evades -- showing his reflexes are intact.. Walcott then runs over, grabs Ali, and declares him the winner.. Liston is stunned that the fight is stopped and he lost.. What action did he take to lose his Boxing License???

[Caractacus]

Shortly after Archie Moore had won the Light-Heavyweight Championship from Joey Maxim in December 1952,
He and Doc Kearns already began a push for Moore to fight for the Heavyweight Championship\(something Moore aspired to do since he was 8)
but it wasn't until he defeated Joey Maxim the third time in 1954,that they began the real push along with Moore's backers in Toledo Ohio
actively campaining for Rocky and Al Weil to give them a shot.
(Here is a brief clip of Moore vrs Maxim III from January 1954 )
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q5NhRYu3ANg

[Kalan]

You're straying from the thread's direction... which is how similar the short punch Moore floored Marciano with was the short shot Ali decked Liston with

[Kalan]

You're straying from the thread's direction... which is how similar the short punch Moore floored Marciano with was to the short shot Ali decked Liston with

[Caractacus]

I'm straying ?
BTW Did you notice the first knockdown of Joey Maxim in round 8 there ?
It sort of reminded me of the knockdown of Rocky Marciano in his fight with Moore.
(except it looked like Moore knocked down Maxim with a double-left hook there)
Maxim goes down hard but gets up immediately within seconds and the ref wastes no time in counting and
Maxim then proceeds directly toward Moore.
was it the same referee ?

[Caractacus]

You're straying from the thread's direction... which is how similar the short punch Moore floored Marciano with was to the short shot Ali decked Liston with

anyways there is of course an entire lenghty thread on "The Phantom Punch" somewhere here back a ways.
I remember I posted a link to a letter written by Bruce Lee to someone who had written aand asked him about it
not too long after the fight in 1965.

[Caractacus]

I'm straying ?
BTW Did you notice the first knockdown of Joey Maxim in round 8 there ?
It sort of reminded me of the knockdown of Rocky Marciano in his fight with Moore.
(except it looked like Moore knocked down Maxim with a double-left hook there)
Maxim goes down hard but gets up immediately within seconds and the ref wastes no time in counting and
Maxim then proceeds directly toward Moore.
was it the same referee ?

maybe it weas even a triple left hook ?

[Kalan]

In the video "Jack Dempsey and Rocky Marciano on the Phantom Punch" Both Dempsey and Marciano said they saw the punch. Both said that there was no possible way to judge how hard the punch impacted Liston -- unless they were on the receiving end of the punch... Both boxers made both points... Both were ignored by the popular media in favor of the "THE FIX" which was a much bigger story than a very short and messed up fight... The officials and commissioners seemed to be "OUT TO LUNCH" on what happened ... Liston was stepping into the punch which made the shot many times harder.

Try this..

If you strike the palm of your hand with your fist you can produce a tremendous impact with 5 or 6 inches of space to start the punch.. Almost every top Heavyweight fighter has nailed an opponent coming in with a very short punch that dropped him for a count.. It might happen sometime in sparring or it will happen in an actual fight..

Marquez's right hardly traveled a few inches when it landed on Pacquiao's chin.. JMM was in a very awkward position so far as leverage is concerned..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0O5tfWc7YGc.. See for yourself how short the punch was.. The potency was Pacman moving into the punch. The impact of the very short punch produced Ice City ... It was perfect timing you rarely get -- and Pacquiao didn't budge for the count of 1000.

Experts like Marciano and Dempsey were totally ignored... Media buffoons like Cosell and Heinz made the call on the veracity of "The Phantom Punch"

[Caractacus]

check out the short right hand here at about 2:15 of this clip.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4q-ndX2KILs

[Kalan]

It lands at 2:19 -- and is one of those really short rights that judges miss unless they keep their eyes peeled... Nothing like the Marquez shot, but the only reason a lot of people knew a punch landed is Wepner went down... Now imagine if you're a biased judge and you're only looking for one boxer to land punches... How many good shots you're going to miss that the other guy threw -- if you're looking for them and still miss punches...

This is why we see scorecards from judges that look like they watched 2 different fights like Pacquiao-Marquez 1

[Caractacus]

AND tHE QUEST CONTINUED.....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cPoaMhGr5NY

[Caractacus]

[Sidney Carton]

Back in the 1970's,watching old boxing filmed bouts was just not available for the average boxing fan to watch.
But I remember around 1978 reading an article/interview about Archie Moore in one of the Sunday newspaper supplement magazines,
were he had claimed that the referee Harry Kessler had interfered and got in his way of a sure knock out of Rocky Marciano
when Moore had knocked Marciano down in round Two of their title fight.
Apparently the standing 8 count had been waved for the fight for some reason.

Archie Moore never mentioned that when he was knocked flat on his face by a single Harold Johnson right hand in the tenth round of their title fight--months before Moore fought Marciano,

the referee Ruby Goldstein gave Moore a standing count, stopping Harold Johnson from getting another punch off against Moore before the bell rang, which then gave Moore a full minute's rest to recover.

[Sidney Carton]

Both Dempsey and Marciano said they saw the punch. Both said that there was no possible way to judge how hard the punch impacted Liston

Dempsey never said that.

Dempsey's only comment was that he would not dignify the fight by commenting on it.

[Kalan]

Both Dempsey and Marciano said they saw the punch. Both said that there was no possible way to judge how hard the punch impacted Liston

Dempsey never said that.

Dempsey's only comment was that he would not dignify the fight by commenting on it.

You're a liar.... Dempsey said "I DID see the punch go over... You never know how hard these punches go over unless you're on the receiving end of them... But I DID see the punch go over." Or words to that exact effect...

Marciano said... "I did see the punch... At the last second Ali did put some mustard on it and it did connect, and might have confused Liston very much." or words to that exact effect.... They were the boxers... The ignorant idiots there were saying a punch didn't land and dumping all over Liston... They were trying to put words in the boxer's mouths... They didn't bite.

[Kalan]

Both Dempsey and Marciano said they saw the punch. Both said that there was no possible way to judge how hard the punch impacted Liston

Dempsey never said that.

Dempsey's only comment was that he would not dignify the fight by commenting on it.

You're a liar.... Dempsey said "I DID see the punch go over... You never know how hard these punches go over unless you're on the receiving end of them... But I DID see the punch go over." Or words to that exact effect...

Marciano said... "I did see the punch... At the last second Ali did put some mustard on it and it did connect, and might have confused Liston very much." or words to that exact effect.... They were the boxers... The ignorant idiots there were saying a punch didn't land and dumping all over Liston... They were trying to put words in the boxer's mouths... They didn't bite.

[Caractacus]

[HomicideHenry]

Essentially Marciano's foot was off the ground after throwing a right hook, Moore hit him, knocking Rocky down for a few brief seconds. It was a matter of being off balance than anything else.

[Caractacus]