Clay-Liston Fixed Fights

[Ambling Alp II]

Maybe I should speak nonsense, it seems to be your native language.
Since you asked, yes I would expect Liston to get up before he did. Ali only stood over him for about a second. Not that Liston would have known where Ali was when he was flopping around.

[APerno]

Maybe I should speak nonsense, it seems to be your native language.
Since you asked, yes I would expect Liston to get up before he did. Ali only stood over him for about a second. Not that Liston would have known where Ali was when he was flopping around.

Whatever Liston's intention, at that point, you are correct, he had to get up or risk looking obvious - this is obvious to anyone who wants to see it - years later Liston complained that he never got his count, which is true, but the question arises: what would Liston have done if he had gotten his count? - He does not act like a fighter who is angry about being clipped; he doesn't act like a fighter whose pride is hurt after suffering the first KD of his career, and then he continues to fight like a fighter who is not hurt. His eyes are clear and in his final exchange with Ali, he shows no sign of being hurt.

So what kind of KD occurred, a flash KD or a devastating KD? - He doesn't act like a fighter who suffered either kind.

I don't buy that Liston went back down because he wanted a count; or that he feared being rabbit punched by Ali - Liston doesn't even try to locate Ali. - All you have to do is watch Jess Willard trying to deal with the unchained wolf Dempsey, and you see how a downed fighter, who is actually trying to get up, reacts/deals with an opponent who won't go to a neutral corner. Willard took a beating and he was still trying to get up; Liston wasn't trying . . .

or in short, Liston had to get up because no one was paying any attention to him.

[Kalan]

I don't buy that Liston went back down because he wanted a count; or that he feared being rabbit punched by Ali - Liston doesn't even try to locate Ali. - All you have to do is watch Jess Willard trying to deal with the unchained wolf Dempsey, and you see how a downed fighter, who is actually trying to get up, reacts/deals with an opponent who won't go to a neutral corner

Please... You know this... THEY HAD NO NEUTRAL CORNER RULE FOR DEMPSEY-WILLARD!!!!!!!!!! ... Gentlemanly boxers backed off and gave you a change to get to your feet, but there was no requirement to do that.. Dempsey wasn't gentleman like.. He wanted the Heavyweight Title.. Willard wanted to stay in the fight so he had no choice but to try to get up wherever Dempsey was.. Willard WOULDN'T have behaved that way if the neutral corner rule was in effect.. He would have waited for Dempsey to go to a neutral corner.. Willard would have been a pig about the rule, if it were there.

[Kalan]

Maybe I should speak nonsense, it seems to be your native language.
Since you asked, yes I would expect Liston to get up before he did. Ali only stood over him for about a second. Not that Liston would have known where Ali was when he was flopping around.

Don't worry... All you speak is nonsense and you have a corner on the literary style... From Ali's spastic actions, Liston would NOT get up unless.., 1. Walcott were counting over him... 2. He could see exactly where Ali was and Ali was a safe distance away from him. Any clever boxer is going to wait for the referee to DQ an incorrigible opponent, or take advantage of a boxer who is pissing off the referee.

Dempsey is the other Heavyweight Champion who didn’t go to a neutral corner.. Tunney said he could have gotten up any time... He stayed down for over 14 seconds to take advantage of the fact that Dempsey seemed to be having a hard time finding a neutral corner and he knew the count would be suspended...since the rule had recently been put into effect, Tunney made sure to familiarize himself with all nuances of the rule and he stayed down... Ali should have been familiar with the rule because it had been in effect for decades -- but Ali didn’t think rules applied to him.

[Kalan]

Liston had to get up because no one was paying any attention to him.

Why would they have to???? ... Was anybody paying any attention to Tunney when Dempsey had a hard time finding a neutral corner???? ... Dempsey was the guy who needed supervising---not Tunney... Tunney was doing his job---waiting for somebody to count over him... It took a few seconds so he waited...

If you're sitting there in your car waiting a minute for a green light -- do you drive through the red light because nobody is paying any attention to you???

[APerno]

Liston had to get up because no one was paying any attention to him.

Why would they have to???? ... Was anybody paying any attention to Tunney when Dempsey had a hard time finding a neutral corner???? ... Dempsey was the guy who needed supervising---not Tunney... Tunney was doing his job---waiting for somebody to count over him... It took a few seconds so he waited...

If you're sitting there in your car waiting a minute for a green light -- do you drive through the red light because nobody is paying any attention to you???

Tunney got a count; Tunney (when his head cleared) focused on the ref; Tunney picked up the Ref's count - no proper comparison here - not a relevant point.

Furthermore (regarding an earlier comment you made) you are incorrect, Tunney himself said that he couldn't have gotten up 'anytime' - what Tunney said, was that he could have gotten up at eight (if it had not been a delayed count) and admitted that if he had gotten up after a straight eight count he wasn't sure he could have kept Dempsey off him; Tunney admitted that he gained extra clarity from the extra four seconds; that the extra four seconds helped get his legs back under him. Tunney never claimed he could have gotten up 'anytime.' Shit, he had just been KD down by Jack Dempsey, that ain't no small thing. - "Anytime" - I think not. - You have a tendency to argue with hyperbole. (But I do enjoy sparring with you.)

Clarification: Tunney said he could have gotten up at the count of four; that would have been eight in a non-delayed count.

But all this is irrelevant to what happened to Liston.

[Chuck1052]

Was Sonny Liston trying to take a dive in his second bout with Muhammad Ali? It is possible, but I do not believe it. Ali did hit Liston with a right to the head that resulted in Liston being knocked down. After being down awhile, Liston got up and seemed to start fighting again. Then Nat Fleischer, who was not in any official capacity for the bout, shouted at the referee that the fight was over.

The problem was that the referee, Jersey Joe Walcott, lost control of the situation after the knockdown and wasn't sure what to do next. Of course, Walcott really was more of a celebrity referee and shouldn't have been the third man in any important bout. An established, experienced referee usually knows what he is doing and that he is in charge.

- Chuck Johnston

[Kalan]

Liston had to get up because no one was paying any attention to him.

Why would they have to???? ... Was anybody paying any attention to Tunney when Dempsey had a hard time finding a neutral corner???? ... Dempsey was the guy who needed supervising---not Tunney... Tunney was doing his job---waiting for somebody to count over him... It took a few seconds so he waited...

If you're sitting there in your car waiting a minute for a green light -- do you drive through the red light because nobody is paying any attention to you???

Tunney got a count; Tunney (when his head cleared) focused on the ref; Tunney picked up the Ref's count - no proper comparison here - not a relevant point.

Furthermore (regarding an earlier comment you made) you are incorrect, Tunney himself said that he couldn't have gotten up 'anytime' - what Tunney said, was that he could have gotten up at eight (if it had not been a delayed count) and admitted that if he had gotten up after a straight eight count he wasn't sure he could have kept Dempsey off him; Tunney admitted that he gained extra clarity from the extra four seconds; that the extra four seconds helped get his legs back under him. Tunney never claimed he could have gotten up 'anytime.' poo, he had just been KD down by Jack Dempsey, that ain't no small thing. - "Anytime" - I think not. - You have a tendency to argue with hyperbole. (But I do enjoy sparring with you.)

Clarification: Tunney said he could have gotten up at the count of four; that would have been eight in a non-delayed count.

But all this is irrelevant to what happened to Liston.

IRRELEVANT???? FUHK!!! ... START this Dempsey-Tunney video at 1:34 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-OeeCfbahwQ

You'll hear "Jack has forgotten the new rule. The count DOES NOT BEGIN until he gets to a neutral corner. Instinctively he stays near by. 5 SECONDS have elapsed before referee Barry is ready to begin the count" .... EVERYTHING about the "the long count" is pertinent to "the short count" ... Since the count DOESN'T BEGIN IF YOU DON'T HEAD FOR a neutral corner. Liston HAD NO REASON IN THE WORLD to get up with Ali running around the ring ignoring Walcott's commands.. I fail to understand how Ali can ignore the rules of Boxing and ignore referee Walcott's commands and Liston is at fault.

Ali-Liston II was STILL ON... Liston GOT UP and resumed fighting... Walcott, the timekeeper, Nat Fleischer, and the Boxing Commissioners decided to make Liston the scapegoat for their comedy of errors... If Barry suspended the count for 5 seconds in Dempsey-Tunney II, how many seconds should Walcott have suspended the count for in Ali-Liston II ??!!!?? ... You won't answer that question... You skate around the real issues with this fight and refuse to address them.. Was Liston a scapegoat or NOT???

[Kalan]

Was Sonny Liston trying to take a dive in his second bout with Muhammad Ali? It is possible, but I do not believe it. Ali did hit Liston with a right to the head that resulted in Liston being knocked down. After being down awhile, Liston got up and seemed to start fighting again. Then Nat Fleischer, who was not in any official capacity for the bout, shouted at the referee that the fight was over.

The problem was that the referee, Jersey Joe Walcott, lost control of the situation after the knockdown and wasn't sure what to do next. Of course, Walcott really was more of a celebrity referee and shouldn't have been the third man in any important bout. An established, experienced referee usually knows what he is doing and that he is in charge.

- Chuck Johnston

Thanks for the sanity... Liston (the ex-con) was made the scapegoat for Fleischer's Walcott's, the time keeper, and the Boxing Commissioner's comedy of errors.

[BoxBuzz]

Liston was discombobulated. Walcott was incompetent. Fleischer was overselling his importance.

It was a clusterphuck of unusual activity.

Liston's heart may have not been in the game. But I believe his loss of balance was genuine, a result of "resonant physics" of the fluid being "gonged" in the inner ear.

Zab Judah could have been faking it as well I suppose even if at the other end of the buyable spectrum, to the laymen.

They both looked rather clownish, each attempting their best to regain control. Liston looking like he just about was in control, and then not so much. There are dozens of KD's that show that sort of odd, delayed, bizarre effects.

The more you know about how the inner ear works, the less likely you are to be suspicious of that KD.

[Kalan]

That's all well and good BuzzBox, but don't diverge... the main points are: the neutral corner rule was NOT enforced... and the count was NOT suspended.

[Kalan]

That means technically---according to the rules---the fight was STILL ON... And Liston still had a great chance to win, as unstable as Ali seemed to be.

[APerno]

You won't answer that question... You skate around the real issues with this fight and refuse to address them..

Ask the question directly, I am not sure what I am avoiding/skating around?

A question for you: If Liston didn't want to get up because Ali wouldn't move to a neutral corner why does he get up, Ali never moves to a neutral corner?

For what it's worth I also believe he got tagged with a right hand.

I just read Buzzbox's inner ear theory - Liston's return to the canvas has just that look about it; it works there - but then Liston is back on his feet literally seconds later, balanced and focused. - An inner ear cleared up that quickly? Maybe?

Anyway, I really don't know what it is I am avoiding.

I say Liston was looking for a soft spot to lay down, and Walcott (because of Ali) made a mess of it; if Ali hadn't caused chaos, Liston would have gone out Walcott-Marciano II style. Everyone, would have been dissatisfied, and would have said, 'yea right, lets move on.' - there would have been no big controversy, just as Walcott-Marciano II had no big controversy, just big disappointment. All this happened only because Liston never got his count. A count he would have taken. (So I think, eh! Just one more opinion.)

[APerno]

Posting this just so it is handy to watch.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TADbnYQJg7w

[Kalan]

You won't answer that question... You skate around the real issues with this fight and refuse to address them..

Ask the question directly, I am not sure what I am avoiding/skating around?

A question for you: If Liston didn't want to get up because Ali wouldn't move to a neutral corner why does he get up, Ali never moves to a neutral corner?

For what it's worth I also believe he got tagged with a right hand.

I just read Buzzbox's inner ear theory - Liston's return to the canvas has just that look about it; it works there - but then Liston is back on his feet literally seconds later, balanced and focused. - An inner ear cleared up that quickly? Maybe?

Anyway, I really don't know what it is I am avoiding.

I say Liston was looking for a soft spot to lay down, and Walcott (because of Ali) made a mess of it; if Ali hadn't caused chaos, Liston would have gone out Walcott-Marciano II style. Everyone, would have been dissatisfied, and would have said, 'yea right, lets move on.' - there would have been no big controversy, just as Walcott-Marciano II had no big controversy, just big disappointment. All this happened only because Liston never got his count. A count he would have taken. (So I think, eh! Just one more opinion.)

Liston got up because Ali was a safe distance from him and Liston wanted to kick Ali's ass to the moon...

I don't give a damn what BuzzBox's thoughts are... It's not about whether Liston COULD get up... it was a flash knockdown... Sonny COULD get up.. Was it ADVISABLE for him to get up if Ali could punch him getting up??? NO it wasn't!! Liston went down again only because Ali was unstable and he saw Ali RUNNING at him from behind.. Ali was out of control.. The neutral corner rule was in effect. Liston knew Ali was supposed to be in a neutral corner and thought Ali might be disqualified.. But eventually it didn't look like Walcott had control of the situation.. Liston didn't wait for a count because there was nothing but mass chaos in that ring.. In a Keystone Kops situation, you have to make the best of it.

My question to YOU is... Barry suspended the Tunney count for 5 seconds when Dempsey forgot the neutral corner rule. But Dempsey DID obey Barry's orders however long it took Jack to get his brain in gear... How long should Walcott have suspended the count over Liston???? Remember, Ali not only forgot the neutral corner rule -- he ignored Walcott's commands to go to a neutral corner. What would YOU do if YOU were Walcott???

[Kalan]

Dempsey goes to a neutral corner when ordered to do so 1:34 of video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-OeeCfbahwQ

[APerno]

You won't answer that question... You skate around the real issues with this fight and refuse to address them..

Ask the question directly, I am not sure what I am avoiding/skating around?

A question for you: If Liston didn't want to get up because Ali wouldn't move to a neutral corner why does he get up, Ali never moves to a neutral corner?

For what it's worth I also believe he got tagged with a right hand.

I just read Buzzbox's inner ear theory - Liston's return to the canvas has just that look about it; it works there - but then Liston is back on his feet literally seconds later, balanced and focused. - An inner ear cleared up that quickly? Maybe?

Anyway, I really don't know what it is I am avoiding.

I say Liston was looking for a soft spot to lay down, and Walcott (because of Ali) made a mess of it; if Ali hadn't caused chaos, Liston would have gone out Walcott-Marciano II style. Everyone, would have been dissatisfied, and would have said, 'yea right, lets move on.' - there would have been no big controversy, just as Walcott-Marciano II had no big controversy, just big disappointment. All this happened only because Liston never got his count. A count he would have taken. (So I think, eh! Just one more opinion.)

Liston got up because Ali was a safe distance from him and Liston wanted to kick Ali's ass to the moon...

I don't give a damn what BuzzBox's thoughts are... It's not about whether Liston COULD get up... it was a flash knockdown... Sonny COULD get up.. Was it ADVISABLE for him to get up if Ali could punch him getting up??? NO it wasn't!! Liston went down again only because Ali was unstable and he saw Ali RUNNING at him from behind.. Ali was out of control.. The neutral corner rule was in effect. Liston knew Ali was supposed to be in a neutral corner and thought Ali might be disqualified.. But eventually it didn't look like Walcott had control of the situation.. Liston didn't wait for a count because there was nothing but mass chaos in that ring.. In a Keystone Kops situation, you have to make the best of it.

My question to YOU is... Barry suspended the Tunney count for 5 seconds when Dempsey forgot the neutral corner rule. But Dempsey DID obey Barry's orders however long it took Jack to get his brain in gear... How long should Walcott have suspended the count over Liston???? Remember, Ali not only forgot the neutral corner rule -- he ignored Walcott's commands to go to a neutral corner. What would YOU do if YOU were Walcott???

He should have gotten a count or the fight should have gone on; Walcott should have ignored Nat Fleischer, he held no authority - Liston got screwed because he didn't get a count - there we agree - but didn't they create the guy sitting ring side, "counting for the knockdowns" because of what happened in '27 - so should Walcott have ignored him too? - it's a tough call - I would argue that there is as much justification to DQ Ali as there was in calling Liston KO

Walcott has Ali in no more control when Liston stands up than when Liston chose not to stand up - in fact, when Liston stands up, Ali is actually jumping up and down in front of him - so I can't agree with the argument that Liston went back down because he was concerned about Ali - that I can't see - but as always we will have to agree to disagree

In regards to Dempsey: next time you watch the 'long count' note that when the confused Dempsey finally figures out that Barry wants him to move, Dempsey tries to move deeper into the corner he is already in, and only when Barry gives him a second wave does he move across the ring - Dempsey is trying to cooperate but is legitimately confused, not just trying to cheat.

[Kalan]

He should have gotten a count or the fight should have gone on; Walcott should have ignored Nat Fleischer, he held no authority - Liston got screwed because he didn't get a count - there we agree - but didn't they create the guy sitting ring side, "counting for the knockdowns" because of what happened in '27 - so should Walcott have ignored him too? - it's a tough call - I would argue that there is as much justification to DQ Ali as there was in calling Liston KO

Walcott has Ali in no more control when Liston stands up than when Liston chose not to stand up - in fact, when Liston stands up, Ali is actually jumping up and down in front of him - so I can't agree with the argument that Liston went back down because he was concerned about Ali - that I can't see - but as always we will have to agree to disagree

In regards to Dempsey: next time you watch the 'long count' note that when the confused Dempsey finally figures out that Barry wants him to move, Dempsey tries to move deeper into the corner he is already in, and only when Barry gives him a second wave does he move across the ring - Dempsey is trying to cooperate but is legitimately confused, not just trying to cheat.

Jack Dempsey wasn’t familiar with the neutral corner rule. It was a brand new rule. He was instructed before the fight about the rule, (as were Ali and Liston). The Mauler had himself to blame for having his head up his ass. He knew he might have Tunney down. Tunney cleverly took advantage of every additional second Dempsey's blunder handed him. Ali was very familiar with the neutral corner rule. The rule was in effect for his whole career. Ali had no excuse for his actions.

Finally you’re agreeing with me that Liston got screwed and the fight should have continued. The official doing the knockdown count at ringside is versed in all the rules. He knows the neutral corner rule. The count is suspended if a boxer scoring a knockdown refuses to obey the referee. Additional rules state the time keeper doesn’t count the floored man out. Buster Douglas would have been counted out vs Mike Tyson. Most top referees practice their counts. They’re usually consistent. But whether the referee’s count is a nanosecond fast, or slow, or dead on the second—his count is the official count. The downed boxer might be groggy for a second or two.. He needs to hear the count clearly all the way because he knows the fight is at stake. Some referees even use their fingers as they yell the count clearly...to lessen any confusion the downed boxer has.

[APerno]

The count is suspended if a boxer scoring a knockdown refuses to obey the referee. Additional rules state the time keeper doesn’t count the floored man out.

I need to look these two up - I agree, they sound logical, and should be the rules; I have an old copy of the Nevada State rules, I want to look and see if they get that specific about the guy 'counting for the knockdowns.' (What the hell is that guy actually called, he's not always the time keeper, is he? - I am pretty sure I have been to fights where they are different guys.)

[Ambling Alp II]

He should have gotten a count or the fight should have gone on; Walcott should have ignored Nat Fleischer, he held no authority - Liston got screwed because he didn't get a count - there we agree - but didn't they create the guy sitting ring side, "counting for the knockdowns" because of what happened in '27 - so should Walcott have ignored him too? - it's a tough call - I would argue that there is as much justification to DQ Ali as there was in calling Liston KO

Walcott has Ali in no more control when Liston stands up than when Liston chose not to stand up - in fact, when Liston stands up, Ali is actually jumping up and down in front of him - so I can't agree with the argument that Liston went back down because he was concerned about Ali - that I can't see - but as always we will have to agree to disagree

In regards to Dempsey: next time you watch the 'long count' note that when the confused Dempsey finally figures out that Barry wants him to move, Dempsey tries to move deeper into the corner he is already in, and only when Barry gives him a second wave does he move across the ring - Dempsey is trying to cooperate but is legitimately confused, not just trying to cheat.

Jack Dempsey wasn’t familiar with the neutral corner rule. It was a brand new rule. He was instructed before the fight about the rule, (as were Ali and Liston). The Mauler had himself to blame for having his head up his ass. He knew he might have Tunney down. Tunney cleverly took advantage of every additional second Dempsey's blunder handed him. Ali was very familiar with the neutral corner rule. The rule was in effect for his whole career. Ali had no excuse for his actions.

editors note: The nuetral corner rule had been around for several years. It was not brand new. Demspey was familar with the rule. had fought previous fights under those rules.

[Kalan]

Dempsey hadn't scored a knockdown since the Firpo fight... Was the neutral corner rule in effect for that fight??? ... If it was, it didn't seem to be enforced very well... Generally when the "Long Count" is discussed the argument is made that Dempsey wasn't familiar with the "new rule."

Check Dempsey-Tunney at 1:36 of this video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-OeeCfbahwQ ... It states "Jack has forgotten the new rule."

Is the video misstating facts like others??? ... Dempsey was clearly confused by the rule in the Tunney rematch... What year was the rule put into effect???

[Ambling Alp II]

The rule was in effect for the Firpo fight. Sometimes Dempsey went to a nuetral corner and sometimes he didn't. The rule had been around for several years. The video was not correct in saying it was new.
Have never been able to pinpoint the exact year it was put in effect. It appears that different boxing commissions started it at different times. The rule was in effect in the Carpentier-Dempsey fight in 1921.

Going by pictures and vidoes, it appears that fighters were not allowed to stand directly over a fallen opponent several years before that; at least under the rules of some boxing commissions. You seldom see a fighter stand right over a fallen opponent like Demspey standing over Willard.

Also worth mentioning the rule was amended so that the referee would pick up the count from the timekeeper. Had that been the case in the Dempsey-Tunney fight, the count would have started at about 6, instead of 1.

Something else to keep in mind is that the rule is vague. It doesn't actually state what going the nuetral corner exactly means. It could mandate that a fighter touch the turnbuckle for example. It doesn't. It doesn't say you have to be a foot away, 5 feet away, or anything.

[Kalan]

Dempsey didn't disobey the referee's first order... Jack misunderstood the ref at first, but he obeyed right away when the referee pointed emphatically to the farthest neutral corner -- which Barry should have have made his order that clear immediately... But Dempsey is to blame for losing the 5 seconds because he should have known what a neutral corner was... He wanted to be as close as possible to Tunney so he could obliterate him.

The neutral corner rule was not amended so that you could disregard the rule and disobey the referee's orders... The count is still suspended if a boxer refuses the referee's order to go to a neutral corner.. You don't get to defy the neutral corner rule and run around the ring. The rule also states that you have to stay "in" the corner. 5 feet out of the corner isn't in the corner.. A foot or 2 out of the corner a referee will let that slide. You're still reasonably "in" the corner.

[APerno]

Also today, fighters, during the mandatory eight count, will often start edging out of the corner toward their hurt opponent; a good ref will turn around and make the fighter retreat a couple of steps back into the neutral corner before he will wave him in.

[APerno]

What I understand about the rule was that is had been around for some time but was inconsistently applied (that is obvious I realize) but that Tunney had made a big deal about it before the fight and all the principle characters made public noises promising to adhere to the rule - so when it finally happened in the second fight Barry was in no position to do anything but enforce the rule. - All this was driven by the fact that there were many who felt Dempsey's behavior in the Firpo fight was boorish; unprofessional - it added to Dempsey's unpopularity at the time and he felt pressured to promise to respect the rule.