Putting The Boot In

[Ned Stark]

It happened in the fight before the main event did it not? Groves was getting battered.

You guys must be hardcore brook fans or something, its common place for fighter to carry on with injuries and common place for fighters to turn a fight they were behind on.

What do you guys actually want to happen in boxing if a fighter is behind? should they just take knees from now on and bow themselves out of world title fights?

We arent talking about a fight where a fighter needs to save himself for another day or a low paid small hall fight, we are talking about Kel Brook fighting to keep his world title and in the end he bottled it. Quite frankly it explained why kel brook has had such a lack lustre career, it was because he doesnt want it enough.

Would any of these fighters have taken a knee in the same situation?:
Froch
DeGale
Groves
Frampton
Burns
Quigg
Crolla
Haye
Joshua
Whyte
Chisora
Fury
Eubank Jr
Coyle
Khan
Hatton
Benn
Eubank snr

I could just carry on naming fighters who wouldnt have bottled it - its rare for a real fighter to take knee to pretend it isnt is just stupid. If Brook was winning that fight he wouldnt have taken a knee regardless of his eye and thats a fact. He took a knee because he was loosing and didnt want it enough to go out on his shield. Just like he didnt want to get in shape enough through the vast amount of his career and why he avoided the big fights and chased khan through most of his career. He fought GGG with the mindset that they would "give it a go" but if he lost it didnt matter because he still didnt lose the welterweight title, and he only fought Spence because he had to.

He quit thats fine he wanted to save himself for another day but i have no interest in watching him again as a ppv fighter.

You don't have a clue.

Oh really so why don't you name some fighters who have pulled themselves out of a fight?

Here's a list for you:

Michael Watson
Paul Ingle
Nick Blackwell
Gerald Mclellan
And many more

Bet they wish they took a knee. I feel bad for using those guys to make a point but the fact that some blokes watching got their money's worth and saw a person got out on his shield will be little consolation for what they've suffered.

Did you not see George Groves post fight interview. Lad just won a world title and his heads in bits from the Gutknecht fight

[Finn]

You don't have a clue.

Oh really so why don't you name some fighters who have pulled themselves out of a fight?

Here's a list for you:

Michael Watson
Paul Ingle
Nick Blackwell
Gerald Mclellan
And many more

Bet they wish they took a knee. I feel bad for using those guys to make a point but the fact that some blokes watching got their money's worth and saw a person got out on his shield will be little consolation for what they've suffered.

Did you not see George Groves post fight interview. Lad just won a world title and his heads in bits from the Gutknecht fight

What a load of non sense you've named fighters who have had career ending brain damage not ones who have carried on with injuries. So what point are you trying to make? Being punched in the head can cause brain damage? What has that list of people got to do with a fighter carrying on with an injury?

[Counter-puncher]

Good god

[liamlion]

Boxing is a very dangerous sport which attracts very brave particpants. The convention is that if a fight is stopped within the distance it is by the corner or the referree for the fighter's protection. It is rare that a fighter quits mid-fight based on a conscious decision that he doesnt wish to continue as he doesnt wish to risk potential injury. Particulalry so, given that the risk of injury is implied from the outset. The sight of a fighter deciding to quit rather than go out on his shield contradicts the norms of the sport. It an understandable decision from Brook but in a sport where so many fighters give there complete and utter-all, right until the end, Brook's decision to end the fight is going to attract criticism. Boxing isnt a logical sport and a warrior mentality is held in the highest of regard. Hence why a fighter who risks his health and is losing and yet battles on is championed almost like the victor of the contest, ala David Haye following his fight with Bellew.

[samwbr]

Oh really so why don't you name some fighters who have pulled themselves out of a fight?

Here's a list for you:

Michael Watson
Paul Ingle
Nick Blackwell
Gerald Mclellan
And many more

Bet they wish they took a knee. I feel bad for using those guys to make a point but the fact that some blokes watching got their money's worth and saw a person got out on his shield will be little consolation for what they've suffered.

Did you not see George Groves post fight interview. Lad just won a world title and his heads in bits from the Gutknecht fight

What a load of non sense you've named fighters who have had career ending brain damage not ones who have carried on with injuries. So what point are you trying to make? Being punched in the head can cause brain damage? What has that list of people got to do with a fighter carrying on with an injury?

Brook could have lost an eye quite easily. It's easy to toss the quitter jibe about but it's not justified.
Would it have satisfied your urges to see him blind in one eye?

[Bennyblanco]

People in glass houses shouldn't throw stones. Aswell as bellew I see Gervonta davis had a dig aswell.

Maybe bellew has forgot about how he ran from stevenson for 6 rounds. You'd of thought as boxers themselves they should be able to see it from brooks point of view.

Could he of carried on? probably. Should he be getting slated? definitely not

[dirk2686]

I genuinely think the worst thing in boxing is this farcical attitude some have towards fighters who decide enough is enough and stop the fight themselves. None of us know the level of pain Brook may have been experiencing. None of us know what state his mind is in knowing that a similar sort of injury he has suffered previously appears to have resurfaced, and that injury could have cost him his sight. I don't care how much people prattle on about the title they hold meaning everything to them; nobody would be prepared to go blind for it.

[liamlion]

I genuinely think the worst thing in boxing is this farcical attitude some have towards fighters who decide enough is enough and stop the fight themselves. None of us know the level of pain Brook may have been experiencing. None of us know what state his mind is in knowing that a similar sort of injury he has suffered previously appears to have resurfaced, and that injury could have cost him his sight. I don't care how much people prattle on about the title they hold meaning everything to them; nobody would be prepared to go blind for it.

This narrative that he chose to stop otherwise he was risking going blind doesnt really make sense tho. Team Brook say the injury was caused in the 7th round... But yet Brook fought on. The risk of blindness was as great in round 7 as it was in round 11. The reason Brook stopped when he did was because he had had the fight punched out of him. Spence's body punching took it out of a tired and weary Brook. Brook simply didnt have the stomach to continue fighting on.

[CaptainSpacerod]

There are some proper nutters posting on this thread who actually seem aggrieved that, to protect his eyesight, a brave fighter having given his all for ten rounds cut short their entertainment by four and a half minutes.

[liamlion]

There are some proper nutters posting on this thread who actually seem aggrieved that, to protect his eyesight, a brave fighter having given his all for ten rounds cut short their entertainment by four and a half minutes.

Very informative comments from you... You personalise a debate by calling people with a different opinion to yours "proper nutters". Excellent, truly.

By the way, those people you refer to as "nutters" include current and past world boxing champions.

[Boxerbeetle]

There are some proper nutters posting on this thread who actually seem aggrieved that, to protect his eyesight, a brave fighter having given his all for ten rounds cut short their entertainment by four and a half minutes.

Very informative comments from you... You personalise a debate by calling people with a different opinion to yours "proper nutters". Excellent, truly.

By the way, those people you refer to as "nutters" include current and past world boxing champions.

Agreed. 'Thick idiots' would have been a much more appropriate description.

[CaptainSpacerod]

There are some proper nutters posting on this thread who actually seem aggrieved that, to protect his eyesight, a brave fighter having given his all for ten rounds cut short their entertainment by four and a half minutes.

Very informative comments from you... You personalise a debate by calling people with a different opinion to yours "proper nutters". Excellent, truly.

By the way, those people you refer to as "nutters" include current and past world boxing champions.

Don't give a fvck who they are. Boxers aren't gladiators in the Colosseum fighting to the death, it's a sport.

If they wanna see a guy potentially lose his eyesight just to keep them entertained for a few more minutes then yep I'd class them as nutters.

I'm no Brook fanboy but only he knew the pain and the fear of the potential consequences that he felt on Saturday night so whether you've had one amateur bout or you're Marvin fvcking Hagler you've got no right to try and impose your arbitrary definitions of bravery on him.

[Tomasino]

I've seen faces caved in, legs, hands and feet smashed, stabbing and slashings. I don't want to see these injuries in boxing. When I first watched MMA I was shocked that you could tap out. Had never heard of such a thing. I watched it for years mostly on my own cos most of my boxing pals thought it was shite. Through time I got my head round tapping out. The boxing fans I know still go on about tapping as the if it means you are a coward..."how could he tap out from that!" "He gave up the pussy" etc etc.

It's a load of bollocks. Kell basically tapped out and good on him for it. He was a beaten man, with a potentially life changing injury. He did what anyone who had an ounce of self worth would do. I was cringing by the end, you could see he was in pain and also the body shots were getting to him, meaning he couldn't protect his eye 100%. He lives not only to fight another day but hopefully keep his sight and enjoy the rest of his life in good health.

[rhino222]

I'm all for honest punditry but I thought Bellew and Khan really overstepped the mark in their assessment of how the fight ended tonight. In fairness to him, Khan's not the sharpest tool in the shed and he was merely parroting what Bellew had to say but it was a bit below the belt.

But Bellew ffs. He catches an unknown African with a lucky shot and beats a crippled, 5 years past his best Haye and suddenly he's Larry Merchant or Bert Sugar ? To say Kell had the fight beaten out of him was plain wrong, the lad couldn't see and no matter how much of a warrior you are (and he proved again tonight that he is a warrior) you don't wanna risk losing your eyesight ffs.

A proper anchorman like Dempsey or Buncey would've pulled him up straightaway. Johnny tried to put things right but the scouse gobshite with the tacit approval of Woolhouse and Khan giving him confidence just wouldn't shutup.

Somebody should point out to Bellew on air that he sh1t his pants in the press conference with Stevenson and sh1t himself in the ring also.

My take on it,

achilles heels, shoulders, cuts etc all heal and dont affect your life. Eyesight issues can result in blindness - fact

kell took a knee whilst under no pressure at all, it was not a quitters gesture as bellew hinted at (the same bellew who turned his back on adonis stevenson?).

kell needs surgery. have some compassion lads. Perhaps kell has a genetic anomaly that has blessed him with weak eye sockets. all in all kell will have surgery, heal well. still have the hunger in him for one last hurrah v khan in a stadium about next june. It will probably be both of their last fights.

just my take on it.

[dirk2686]

I genuinely think the worst thing in boxing is this farcical attitude some have towards fighters who decide enough is enough and stop the fight themselves. None of us know the level of pain Brook may have been experiencing. None of us know what state his mind is in knowing that a similar sort of injury he has suffered previously appears to have resurfaced, and that injury could have cost him his sight. I don't care how much people prattle on about the title they hold meaning everything to them; nobody would be prepared to go blind for it.

This narrative that he chose to stop otherwise he was risking going blind doesnt really make sense tho. Team Brook say the injury was caused in the 7th round... But yet Brook fought on. The risk of blindness was as great in round 7 as it was in round 11. The reason Brook stopped when he did was because he had had the fight punched out of him. Spence's body punching took it out of a tired and weary Brook. Brook simply didnt have the stomach to continue fighting on.

Did you know injuries can get worse? Crazy I know, but it's true!

[Switch hitter]

Carl Froch? Rocky Marciano? Hasim Rahman?

Exactly. Out of the thousands of fights each year, there's a relative handful in history where it's actually happened.

It happened in the fight before the main event did it not? Groves was getting battered.

You guys must be hardcore brook fans or something, its common place for fighter to carry on with injuries and common place for fighters to turn a fight they were behind on.

What do you guys actually want to happen in boxing if a fighter is behind? should they just take knees from now on and bow themselves out of world title fights?

We arent talking about a fight where a fighter needs to save himself for another day or a low paid small hall fight, we are talking about Kel Brook fighting to keep his world title and in the end he bottled it. Quite frankly it explained why kel brook has had such a lack lustre career, it was because he doesnt want it enough.

Would any of these fighters have taken a knee in the same situation?:
Froch
DeGale
Groves
Frampton
Burns
Quigg
Crolla
Haye
Joshua
Whyte
Chisora
Fury
Eubank Jr
Coyle
Khan
Hatton
Benn
Eubank snr

I could just carry on naming fighters who wouldnt have bottled it - its rare for a real fighter to take knee to pretend it isnt is just stupid. If Brook was winning that fight he wouldnt have taken a knee regardless of his eye and thats a fact. He took a knee because he was loosing and didnt want it enough to go out on his shield. Just like he didnt want to get in shape enough through the vast amount of his career and why he avoided the big fights and chased khan through most of his career. He fought GGG with the mindset that they would "give it a go" but if he lost it didnt matter because he still didnt lose the welterweight title, and he only fought Spence because he had to.

He quit thats fine he wanted to save himself for another day but i have no interest in watching him again as a ppv fighter.

To be fair the great warrior Nigel Benn quit in his last 2 fights..... what does that say about him??

[MightyWarrior]

pathetic anyone questioning the bravery of Kell Brook, he's just taken on two of the best P4P fighters in boxing, back to back, and suffered broken bones in each eye in both fights.
If you don't think that's brave, just check out Adonis Stevenson defending his "title" this weekend.

[Tanzio]

I do not question any boxer's decision to quit a fight, unless it is proven that the act was related to gambling.

I do not think that Brook's decision was based solely on the eye. As others have mentioned, Spence's relentless work to the body also wore Brook out. Kell determined that there was no hope for a turnaround because he had nothing left to give for the last 1.5 rounds but his health.

I completely respect his decision.

However, I also disagree with those who claim that Brook was as strong as he has ever been in there. In my opinion he was not as strong as he was in the 3G fight. Physically, he appeared to have a less defined physique on fight night. He appeared to me to have more water weight.

I state this not as an excuse for Brook or to belittle Spence's victory. I simply offer it as a factor leading to the final outcome of the fight.

[Finn]

pathetic anyone questioning the bravery of Kell Brook, he's just taken on two of the best P4P fighters in boxing, back to back, and suffered broken bones in each eye in both fights.
If you don't think that's brave, just check out Adonis Stevenson defending his "title" this weekend.

No he hasnt he's fought one top P4P fighter in a farce of a match up, and one prospect. It took him 33 fights to challenge for the title even though he had been mandatory for 3 years, he then defended the title against 1 credible opponent and lost it. Sorry thats not a champion - a champion is someone like Spence Jr who beats everyone on the way up - Algeri, Bundu, gets a title shot in someone elses back yard in his 22nd fight, comes from behind to win the fight and challenges the the other world title holders.

Kel Brook has been lazy or gutless through his whole career - you can try and compare him to adonis stevenson but you might want to remember that hes only had 29 fights and in those fights he's beaten Dawson, Cloud, Bellew and Bika and won his world title in his 22nd fight and they still label him "adonis chickenson" so we all consider him a ducker what can we say about a guy who took 33 fights before he stepped up then 3 absolute jokes of a defence before jumping out of the division to lose then return to quit against a prospect. The only thing you can say is he is a quality fighter but hasnt got the minerals to be a great - he hasnt got the heart for it plain and simple and he has never been hungry.

[samwbr]

pathetic anyone questioning the bravery of Kell Brook, he's just taken on two of the best P4P fighters in boxing, back to back, and suffered broken bones in each eye in both fights.
If you don't think that's brave, just check out Adonis Stevenson defending his "title" this weekend.

No he hasnt he's fought one top P4P fighter in a farce of a match up, and one prospect. It took him 33 fights to challenge for the title even though he had been mandatory for 3 years, he then defended the title against 1 credible opponent and lost it. Sorry thats not a champion - a champion is someone like Spence Jr who beats everyone on the way up - Algeri, Bundu, gets a title shot in someone elses back yard in his 22nd fight, comes from behind to win the fight and challenges the the other world title holders.

Kel Brook has been lazy or gutless through his whole career - you can try and compare him to adonis stevenson but you might want to remember that hes only had 29 fights and in those fights he's beaten Dawson, Cloud, Bellew and Bika and won his world title in his 22nd fight and they still label him "adonis chickenson" so we all consider him a ducker what can we say about a guy who took 33 fights before he stepped up then 3 absolute jokes of a defence before jumping out of the division to lose then return to quit against a prospect. The only thing you can say is he is a quality fighter but hasnt got the minerals to be a great - he hasnt got the heart for it plain and simple.

Brook went to Porters backyard and won the belt at a time when people were calling Porter a mini Mike Tyson

[Finn]

pathetic anyone questioning the bravery of Kell Brook, he's just taken on two of the best P4P fighters in boxing, back to back, and suffered broken bones in each eye in both fights.
If you don't think that's brave, just check out Adonis Stevenson defending his "title" this weekend.

No he hasnt he's fought one top P4P fighter in a farce of a match up, and one prospect. It took him 33 fights to challenge for the title even though he had been mandatory for 3 years, he then defended the title against 1 credible opponent and lost it. Sorry thats not a champion - a champion is someone like Spence Jr who beats everyone on the way up - Algeri, Bundu, gets a title shot in someone elses back yard in his 22nd fight, comes from behind to win the fight and challenges the the other world title holders.

Kel Brook has been lazy or gutless through his whole career - you can try and compare him to adonis stevenson but you might want to remember that hes only had 29 fights and in those fights he's beaten Dawson, Cloud, Bellew and Bika and won his world title in his 22nd fight and they still label him "adonis chickenson" so we all consider him a ducker what can we say about a guy who took 33 fights before he stepped up then 3 absolute jokes of a defence before jumping out of the division to lose then return to quit against a prospect. The only thing you can say is he is a quality fighter but hasnt got the minerals to be a great - he hasnt got the heart for it plain and simple.

Brook went to Porters backyard and won the belt at a time when people were calling Porter a mini Mike Tyson

They call every black boxer in America a mini mike Tyson, he has about 50% ko ratio how's that any comparison to tyson.

But that is by the by I'm not trying to discredit brooks achievement I was thrilled when he won that title against a very good opponent, i thought the show was finally on the road for Brook a bit like when calzaghes career finally got going.

But then look what happened? Frankie gavin, dan, and bizier.

Credit for stepping up to GGG even if it was after Khan had set the standard. But his team pulled him out as soon as he was getting hurt, which was correct, but to me it looked like they had gone there with the gameplan of give it a bit of a go but if you start getting hurt we'll get you out straight away. So that's not a particularly audacious strategy or mindset for an assault on the middleweight king.

This is the problem is the idea of quiting in any fight should not be entering a fighters head. Because once you even think of it in the back of your mind you will end up quitting.

And anyone who has done any fighting will tell you exactly the same thing, it's a weakness.

[Jackson328]

I genuinely think the worst thing in boxing is this farcical attitude some have towards fighters who decide enough is enough and stop the fight themselves. None of us know the level of pain Brook may have been experiencing. None of us know what state his mind is in knowing that a similar sort of injury he has suffered previously appears to have resurfaced, and that injury could have cost him his sight. I don't care how much people prattle on about the title they hold meaning everything to them; nobody would be prepared to go blind for it.

This narrative that he chose to stop otherwise he was risking going blind doesnt really make sense tho. Team Brook say the injury was caused in the 7th round... But yet Brook fought on. The risk of blindness was as great in round 7 as it was in round 11. The reason Brook stopped when he did was because he had had the fight punched out of him. Spence's body punching took it out of a tired and weary Brook. Brook simply didnt have the stomach to continue fighting on.

You can't possibly know that. The risk was surely getting higher the longer he continued getting punched in the face! Factor in the stress he was under and fatigue after a long hard fight entered the latter stages and the increase in the chances of making a mistake because Spence could smell blood and was moving in for the finish. I find it incredible that anyone can think a boxer should fight on with a fractured eye socket, I really do. Brook had suffered the very same injury to his other eye 6 months ago in his last fight so he may have had a good idea what the injury was this time, things like that can play on your mind when you've had surgery.

Surely if he'd had enough and was looking to quit he would have done it after the knockdown in round 10, we've seen plenty of people 'fail to beat the count'. I would hate young boxers reading this board to think that they should feel obliged to keep fighting with a serious injury and risk being blinded or worse just to satisfy the blood lust of some fans. If its acceptable for an MMA fighter to tap out then why can't a boxer take a knee and say no more? Joe Frazier quit on his stool in the 3rd fight with Ali but I don't recall too much criticism, he was totally exhausted. Ok maybe it was Futch who called it but Joe wasn't complaining, he couldn't move! Some accused Joshua of taking himself to the canvas against Wlad rather than take more shots. Self preservation has many forms.

[MightyWarrior]

pathetic anyone questioning the bravery of Kell Brook, he's just taken on two of the best P4P fighters in boxing, back to back, and suffered broken bones in each eye in both fights.
If you don't think that's brave, just check out Adonis Stevenson defending his "title" this weekend.

No he hasnt he's fought one top P4P fighter in a farce of a match up, and one prospect. It took him 33 fights to challenge for the title even though he had been mandatory for 3 years, he then defended the title against 1 credible opponent and lost it. Sorry thats not a champion - a champion is someone like Spence Jr who beats everyone on the way up - Algeri, Bundu, gets a title shot in someone elses back yard in his 22nd fight, comes from behind to win the fight and challenges the the other world title holders.

Kel Brook has been lazy or gutless through his whole career - you can try and compare him to adonis stevenson but you might want to remember that hes only had 29 fights and in those fights he's beaten Dawson, Cloud, Bellew and Bika and won his world title in his 22nd fight and they still label him "adonis chickenson" so we all consider him a ducker what can we say about a guy who took 33 fights before he stepped up then 3 absolute jokes of a defence before jumping out of the division to lose then return to quit against a prospect. The only thing you can say is he is a quality fighter but hasnt got the minerals to be a great - he hasnt got the heart for it plain and simple and he has never been hungry.

Wrong, on the basis of Saturdays fight Spence is clearly one of the best fighters in the sport. Chin, heart, guts, skill, speed, punch, he's got it all.

[CaptainSpacerod]

even if it was after Khan had set the standard.

Ok so it's clear where your warped viewpoint emanates from. You're a Khan fan "putting the boot in"

Shocking

[Finn]

even if it was after Khan had set the standard.

Ok so it's clear where your warped viewpoint emanates from. You're a Khan fan "putting the boot in"

Shocking

thats not the case at all, why cant i be a fan of both? Or are you saying the khan v canelo fight didnt prompt Brook to fight GGG?