Alexander Povetkin vs Andriy Rudenko Finalized For July 1

[candyslim]

No, 0% chance. As for the wbc, not having that fight cost them money. wilder was in London with a ticket to Moscow. This is one of the worst conspiracy theories ever concocted. Beyond stupid.

Even if that's right about the ticket it would a small prise to pay if it meant people would accept that as evidence that it was all kosher. It may be incorrect but I don't accept it's beyond stupid and you didn't answer my questions - We don't always agree Saad but I'm always interested in your take on stuff. With this though you just seem to dismiss the idea out of hand.

[candyslim]

No, 0% chance. As for the wbc, not having that fight cost them money. wilder was in London with a ticket to Moscow. This is one of the worst conspiracy theories ever concocted. Beyond stupid.

Even if that's right about the ticket it would a small price to pay if it meant people would accept that as evidence that it was all kosher. It may be incorrect but I don't accept it's beyond stupid and you didn't answer my questions - We don't always agree Saad but I'm always interested in your take on stuff. With this though you just seem to dismiss the idea out of hand.

[SaadOffTheDeck]

No, 0% chance. As for the wbc, not having that fight cost them money. wilder was in London with a ticket to Moscow. This is one of the worst conspiracy theories ever concocted. Beyond stupid.

Even if that's right about the ticket it would a small prise to pay if it meant people would accept that as evidence that it was all kosher. It may be incorrect but I don't accept it's beyond stupid and you didn't answer my questions - We don't always agree Saad but I'm always interested in your take on stuff. With this though you just seem to dismiss the idea out of hand.

Tens of thousands of dollars is a small price to pay to appease nerds on the internet? Sorry, which questions didn't I directly address? And yes I'm completely dismissive of a guys innocence after developing knock out power in his late 30's after his first loss and failing 2 drug tests. Like I said, 0% and beyond stupid.

[SaadOffTheDeck]

I'm not convinced that Alexander Poviktim is as pure as the driven snow but wouldn't you even concede the possibility that his controversial failed drug test might have been politically motivated?

Would you not agree that certain officials might have found the cancellation of the fight to be serendipitous not to say very desirable?

Do you consider the WBC to be a fine upstanding body of men who would never countenance corruption in any form?

Do you consider Vada/Wada to be equally incorruptible and certain to defy the WBC in the event of the almost incomprehensible and ridiculous notion that they would ever exert pressure in order to influence the test result?

Do you believe that the WBC are entirely indifferent as to who holds their heavyweight title, and would not want to have any influence over whoever holds it beyond nominating his mandatory challenger from time to time?

Do you believe the WBC would be just as happy if the Russians were able to exert more influence by virtue of the fact the champion resides and defends the belt in Moscow? Would they the WBC be able to operate as freely and succesfully in relation to fights in Russia as they have done for many many years in respect of fights in the dear old US of A? You don't think they would want to steer events away from this conclusion if they could?

I don't know if this was on the level or not, but it smells rather like fish to me. Deontay often complains that he was bitterly disappointed and would never have flown to Moscow if he was not expecting to fight. He didn't actually get there though did he?

I'm not usually much for conspiracy theories but this is hardly up there with holocaust denial is it?

I usually post on my phone so I condense it.

!) No, it cost those officials a ton of money.

2) Of course not, but their corruption is in the pursuit of money and Povetkin is worth much more to them than Wilder is.

3) The WBC requires all of it's fighters to use their testing. That's a massive contract. I doubt they would screw them over to lose it.

Tghere you go. I guess just a NO wasn't very concise. lol

[SaadOffTheDeck]

And God forbid that block head influences you. Also a zero percent chance of an African American family from the south vacationing in London at that chilly time of the year.

[Kalan]

We KNOW that the WBC REEKS with corruption...

They created a "World Title" and had a "World Championship Belt" designed and made for about 10,000 dollars for the Canelo-Chavez Fight... Than they asked Canelo and Chavez to pay several hundred thousand dollars each in sanctioning fee money... They both said "NO THANKS" Then the WBC reduced that amount -- they just wanted to make sure the fight had "proper sanctioning"... Canelo-Chavez both said "NO THANKS" ... Smart people know when they're being played and Canelo and Chavez didn't play.

The WBC and VADA knew that Povetkin passed all his PED tests for the Wilder fight... They deliberately misrepresented a passed test as a failed test... by saying "you can't test clear and than have 70 nanograms of Meldonium in your next test... But WADA told them "Yes you can.. Just like you can have more yellow in your urine in one sample than another urine sample that is more clear colored... because of the different levels of hydration you may have in your body... Both tests pass.. You're just more hydrated in one test than another."

What VADA and the WBC really wanted to do was keep that Heavyweight Title in America... And keep their exorbitant sanctioning fees and PED testing fees coming in... and keep the major Boxing venues in the USA for American promoters like DiBella.

[candyslim]

I think it is very much in the WBC's interest to keep their heavyweight title in America. It has to be well worth spending money to make sure that happens and a few tens of thousands extra to create the illusion of everything having been done properly, not just for the sake of placating a few nerds on in the internet, but in order to uphold the reputation ... cough ... cough ... and integrity ... choke ... of the organiztion. No problem with Wilder doing his bit flying to London for a short break. He doesn't want to risk his title against a formidable opponent on his home turf, even if he thinks he does. He'll do as he's told anyway, he knows who butters his bread.

I'm intrigued Saad, why you would say "Povetkin is worth much more to them than Wilder is" ? How does that work, exactly?

You agree the World Boxing Council are not above using their powers to get what they want. You agreed that Vada/Wada are in no position to defy any instruction from the WBC whether it contravenes their code of practice or not. Is it really such a leap to envisage a scenario in which the WBC have exerted pressure on the drug agency to make certain their boy Wilder stays their boy?

They may decide to throw him to the wolves when he can replaced by someone who abides in a WBC-friendly environment such as USA/UK, who doesn't require quite as much protection from threats within the division, and best of all, who will contribute far greater revenue to WBC coffers. Oh look here comes that nice Mr Joshua.

One thing I do agree with Saad about and that's Poviktim's mysterious and substantial physical improvement during the course of his career. It's hard to avoid the conclusion that the explanation is more than simply hard work and healthy living .

[bigman1968]

I think it is very much in the WBC's interest to keep their heavyweight title in America. It has to be well worth spending money to make sure that happens and a few tens of thousands extra to create the illusion of everything having been done properly, not just for the sake of placating a few nerds on in the internet, but in order to uphold the reputation ... cough ... cough ... and integrity ... choke ... of the organiztion. No problem with Wilder doing his bit flying to London for a short break. He doesn't want to risk his title against a formidable opponent on his home turf, even if he thinks he does. He'll do as he's told anyway, he knows who butters his bread.

I'm intrigued Saad, why you would say "Povetkin is worth much more to them than Wilder is" ? How does that work, exactly?

You agree the World Boxing Council are not above using their powers to get what they want. You agreed that Vada/Wada are in no position to defy any instruction from the WBC whether it contravenes their code of practice or not. Is it really such a leap to envisage a scenario in which the WBC have exerted pressure on the drug agency to make certain their boy Wilder stays their boy?

They may decide to throw him to the wolves when he can replaced by someone who abides in a WBC-friendly environment such as USA/UK, who doesn't require quite as much protection from threats within the division, and best of all, who will contribute far greater revenue to WBC coffers. Oh look here comes that nice Mr Joshua.

One thing I do agree with Saad about and that's Poviktim's mysterious and substantial physical improvement during the course of his career. It's hard to avoid the conclusion that the explanation is more than simply hard work and healthy living .

So why they maid Povetkin #1 in their rating??? they could just not do it
Why to go to complicated affairs and conspiracies...just ignore him, like all other ABC's.
But WBC, practically, forced Wilder to go to Russia for hard fight...without online translation in US (no publicity or promotion for his future fights).

[Ruthless-RKO]

I think it is very much in the WBC's interest to keep their heavyweight title in America.

They would have earned a lot in sanctioning fees had the Wilder-Povetkin fight happened..

Vitali held the title for a while, he made big purses.

Is it something about Povetkin they don't like? They shouldn't have made him mando.

[SaadOffTheDeck]

I think it is very much in the WBC's interest to keep their heavyweight title in America. It has to be well worth spending money to make sure that happens and a few tens of thousands extra to create the illusion of everything having been done properly, not just for the sake of placating a few nerds on in the internet, but in order to uphold the reputation ... cough ... cough ... and integrity ... choke ... of the organiztion. No problem with Wilder doing his bit flying to London for a short break. He doesn't want to risk his title against a formidable opponent on his home turf, even if he thinks he does. He'll do as he's told anyway, he knows who butters his bread.

I'm intrigued Saad, why you would say "Povetkin is worth much more to them than Wilder is" ? How does that work, exactly?

You agree the World Boxing Council are not above using their powers to get what they want. You agreed that Vada/Wada are in no position to defy any instruction from the WBC whether it contravenes their code of practice or not. Is it really such a leap to envisage a scenario in which the WBC have exerted pressure on the drug agency to make certain their boy Wilder stays their boy?

They may decide to throw him to the wolves when he can replaced by someone who abides in a WBC-friendly environment such as USA/UK, who doesn't require quite as much protection from threats within the division, and best of all, who will contribute far greater revenue to WBC coffers. Oh look here comes that nice Mr Joshua.

One thing I do agree with Saad about and that's Poviktim's mysterious and substantial physical improvement during the course of his career. It's hard to avoid the conclusion that the explanation is more than simply hard work and healthy living .

Sanctioning fees are a percentage of the purses. Wilder/Povetkin was by far the biggest purse of wilders career. At least 3 times more than his highest. There is much more money in Povetkin fights, that's factual. I'm not going to keep answering the same questions. Yes, it's impossible for me to give even the smallest possible chance that the wbc rigged drug tests to cost themselves a fortune and wilder/Al spent tens of thousands to carry on the rouge and coat themselves millions. There is no gain on either side. It's beyond stupid.

[SaadOffTheDeck]

It intrigues me why you think so adamantly that a Mexican organization would be so partial to Americans over money.

[SaadOffTheDeck]

To clarify I'm not calling you stupid. You come off as someone willing to look at both sides and not completely in tune with that part of the sport. The only reasoning behind this conspiracy is that wilder and al fear Povetkin-Takam much to make by miles their biggest purse and the wbc would rather make a million on 10 regular wilder fights than 1 wilder/Povetkin fight. Makes no cents.

[candyslim]

@bigman68 That is a very good question (why make Povetkin number one). It does seem an unlikely thing to do if there were a conspiracy to derail him. The only answer which makes sense while still supporting the conspiracy hypothesis, is maybe by making him number one, it promotes the idea of the WBC as an organization who rate fighters on merit rather than political expediency. I have to admit that does sound weak even if protecting their rep has to be something that would appeal to them.

@Saad (and Ruthless RKO) It's not so much the USA necessarily but they know from vast experience they (WBC) are free to operate without interference in the States, or more accurately, in relation to fights that take place in the States. There is also their very lucrative and let's not forget prestigious, anti-doping programme which is closely tied to the US. So It's firstly about influence and (avoiding) interference and flowing from that the underlying motivation of money.

You're right Saad there are aspects I may not be in tune with, for example I don't know if the WBC/WADA/VADA alliance causes any difficulties/friction in UK fights with the BBBC/UKAD. _I guess that's because boxing interests me a lot more than the politics associated with it. I imagine the WBC would not be too unhappy about their title-holder being based in the UK or Germany bearing in mind the history of the brothers Klitschko, but I wonder if they would be less enamoured with Moscow becoming more influential, and whether they might be concerned about their ability to operate with freedom from local interference there. In my experience, the Russian authorities are not people to let you just do your own thing or go about your business unsupervised.

Anyway I accept I have a lot more questions than answers, and I thank you guys for your input which is what I was looking for. It's much better to hear an explanation as to why you are thought to be talking shite, rather than just to be told you're talking shite.

I'm not totally convinced still but that point about making him mandatory does take some of the wind from the sails.

[SaadOffTheDeck]

The best question to ask yourself is has a 'conspiracy' ever taken place that nobody profits from? Not just something getting busted, nobody profits in the planning. Most of them lose a substantial amount of money. Why? Out of Mexican reverence to the USA? C'mon.

[SaadOffTheDeck]

Also, was the wbc deciding to invest millions in a drug testing program after this part of the cover up? Or were they pissed off their fight got cancelled?

[boxing_rocks]

If there was a foul play from WBC in this case, then in no way they acted like a Mexican organization, but they acted as a corrupt one. They clearly didn't have anything against Povetkin at the beginning, but there is a possibility that they got "influenced" later. There is definitely one person who wasn't interested in that fight -- Haymon. He wants to cash Wilder out for more than $4 mil, and Povetkin posed a risk to that plan. By the way, if he is somehow involved, he could have directly influenced VADA, not WBC.

P.S. Please note that I am not saying that any foul play happened, but one can't deny that there is a possibility.

[SaadOffTheDeck]

Haymon definitely wanted that fight.

[Tanzio]

If there was a foul play from WBC in this case, then in no way they acted like a Mexican organization, but they acted as a corrupt one. They clearly didn't have anything against Povetkin at the beginning, but there is a possibility that they got "influenced" later. There is definitely one person who wasn't interested in that fight -- Haymon. He wants to cash Wilder out for more than $4 mil, and Povetkin posed a risk to that plan. By the way, if he is somehow involved, he could have directly influenced VADA, not WBC.

P.S. Please note that I am not saying that any foul play happened, but one can't deny that there is a possibility.

There is a possibility that a solar flare will fry Earth in . . .

[boxing_rocks]

If there was a foul play from WBC in this case, then in no way they acted like a Mexican organization, but they acted as a corrupt one. They clearly didn't have anything against Povetkin at the beginning, but there is a possibility that they got "influenced" later. There is definitely one person who wasn't interested in that fight -- Haymon. He wants to cash Wilder out for more than $4 mil, and Povetkin posed a risk to that plan. By the way, if he is somehow involved, he could have directly influenced VADA, not WBC.

P.S. Please note that I am not saying that any foul play happened, but one can't deny that there is a possibility.

There is a possibility that a solar flare will fry Earth in . . .

There is much higher possibility that you are a fool.

[Tanzio]

If there was a foul play from WBC in this case, then in no way they acted like a Mexican organization, but they acted as a corrupt one. They clearly didn't have anything against Povetkin at the beginning, but there is a possibility that they got "influenced" later. There is definitely one person who wasn't interested in that fight -- Haymon. He wants to cash Wilder out for more than $4 mil, and Povetkin posed a risk to that plan. By the way, if he is somehow involved, he could have directly influenced VADA, not WBC.

P.S. Please note that I am not saying that any foul play happened, but one can't deny that there is a possibility.

There is a possibility that a solar flare will fry Earth in . . .

There is much higher possibility that you are a fool.

A fool is one who dismisses the obvious, then defends his irrationality by claiming there is a possibility that his ridiculous scenario could infinitesimally be true.

That fool would be you, box-of-rocks.

[boxing_rocks]

I agree. I was wrong. You being a fool is not a possibility, but certainty.

[Tanzio]

I agree. I was wrong. You being a fool is not a possibility, but certainty.

Keep attempting to worm your way out of your months long ridiculous position on the PEDvetkin issue. Run like a b!tch, box-of-rocks.

[boxing_rocks]

I agree. I was wrong. You being a fool is not a possibility, but certainty.

Keep attempting to worm your way out of your months long ridiculous position on the PEDvetkin issue. Run like a b!tch, box-of-rocks.

I don't have a position on the issue and am finding categorical positions from both sides naive to not say stupid. Yes, Povetkin is most likely using PEDs like almost all top athletes, but him being so unprofessional in that area TWICE definitely looks suspicious.

[candyslim]

The best question to ask yourself is has a 'conspiracy' ever taken place that nobody profits from? Not just something getting busted, nobody profits in the planning. Most of them lose a substantial amount of money. Why? Out of Mexican reverence to the USA? C'mon.

Like I said, it's nothing to do with Mexican reverence for the USA, it's about freedom to operate without interference and make money and they know from decades of experience, Uncle Sam is a very amenable host.

This cancellation would certainly have cost them the sanction fee, as well as various expenses but it's only one fight, one fee, and they would obviously take the long view as to what benefits them going forward. You tell me Povetkin is where the money is but as I said before, they may not be comfortable with the increase in power and influence that goes with hosting the heavyweight champion, being ceded to the Russians, who may be more inclined to "get involved" in the administration of defences that take place on their patch. That's just speculation on my part, I don't pretend to understand the machinations and the skullduggery.

All I do know is that the sanctioning bodies are in business to feather their nests, and if they can advance their cause, then they will use whatever methods available, whether entirety proper or otherwise, even if means losing money in the short term. This episode might well have played out exactly how they say it did, but that doesn't mean these bastards should ever be taken at their word.

[SaadOffTheDeck]

Wow