Clay-Liston Fixed Fights

[Kalan]

Also today, fighters, during the mandatory eight count, will often start edging out of the corner toward their hurt opponent; a good ref will turn around and make the fighter retreat a couple of steps back into the neutral corner before he will wave him in.

If that's true -- Walcott wasn't a good referee.

And Ali was an extremely defiant character when he was a young man. He loved to break rules and norms and loved to shock and amaze people with his exploits. If you don't do and say things that are over-the-top there's not too much newsworthy for anyone to write about -- and no publicity to be gained. He changed and mellowed as he got older and more mature, but Ali was a radical youth who thrived on being the center of attention.

In the video you posted above, Liston has his gloves off the canvas at 2:00 and Ali isn't anywhere near a neutral corner. He encroaches behind Walcott as the ref wipes Liston's gloves of til 2:03. Then Walcott starts turning to look at a screaming Nat Fleischer... Walcott seemingly has difficulty understanding what Fleischer is yelling about so at 2:08 he leaves the boxers on their own (without ordering "box") and walks over to better hear what Fleischer has to say... Fleischer tells him Liston was down for over 10 seconds and the timekeeper concurs saying "He was down for 12 seconds." Liston was actually down for 16 seconds without getting a count because Walcott was dealing with an impossibly incorrigible Ali.

When Walcott left to talk with Fleischer, Ali attacked Liston with a left-right at 2:11, the punches sailing over Liston's head... Ali throws another 1-2 at 2:12 and Liston evades them... Ali loads and misses a left hook at 2:13 and misses a left uppercut at 2:14.. Ali was not the picture of a cold and ruthless finisher. More an overexcited 6-round fighter winging and wasting punches.. Liston said his strategy was trying to trick Ali into throwing so he could set him up for a big shot. If the fight continued it would have been interesting. Liston had a chance. But Walcott grabbed Ali at 2:15 and proclaimed him the winner. At 2:17 Bundini Brown raced into the ring and lifted Ali high off the canvas, and Dundee the rest of Ali's corner and entourage poured into the ring to congratulate Ali as Liston looked on in bewilderment.

[APerno]

Finally you’re agreeing with me that Liston got screwed and the fight should have continued. The official doing the knockdown count at ringside is versed in all the rules. He knows the neutral corner rule. The count is suspended if a boxer scoring a knockdown refuses to obey the referee. Additional rules state the time keeper doesn’t count the floored man out. Buster Douglas would have been counted out vs Mike Tyson. Most top referees practice their counts. They’re usually consistent. But whether the referee’s count is a nanosecond fast, or slow, or dead on the second—his count is the official count. The downed boxer might be groggy for a second or two.. He needs to hear the count clearly all the way because he knows the fight is at stake. Some referees even use their fingers as they yell the count clearly...to lessen any confusion the downed boxer has.

Most of what you stated is here except the prohibition against the timekeeper being able to count a fighter out - there is no rule stated for a situation where the referee NEVER picks up the count - the rules make the assumption that the ref will eventually pick up the count. So it seems there is no answer that that particular situation.

What I find interesting is rule 467.745 [at bottom] it states that if a fighter stands up after a KD and then falls back down again the referee does not restart the count, but continues the count - OK, that's fine, but over the years I have heard commentators constantly claim that any fighter who regains his feet after a KD and then falls back down again is automatically disqualified (considered KO) - it turns out this is not true; not to be a rule. I wonder, over the years, how many refs have made this mistake - funny, but this is one Walcott got right that night.

Nevada Athletic Commission

CHAPTER 467 - UNARMED COMBAT

NAC 467.740  Procedure for counting; knockdown; knockout; technical draw. (NRS 467.030)
1.  When an unarmed combatant is knocked down, the referee shall order the opponent to retire to the farthest neutral corner of the ring, by pointing to the corner, and shall immediately begin the count over the unarmed combatant who is down. The referee shall audibly announce the passing of the seconds, accompanying the count with motions of his or her arm, with the downward motion indicating the end of each second.
2.  The timekeeper, by effective signaling, shall give the referee the correct 1-second interval for the count. The referee’s count is the official count. Once the referee picks up the count from the timekeeper, the timekeeper shall cease counting. No unarmed combatant who is knocked down may be allowed to resume competing until the referee has finished counting to eight. The unarmed combatant may take the count either on the floor or standing.
3.  If the opponent fails to stay in the farthest corner, the referee shall cease counting until the opponent has returned to his or her corner and shall then go on with the count from the point at which it was interrupted. If the unarmed combatant who is down arises before the count of 10, the referee may step between the unarmed combatants long enough to assure himself or herself that the unarmed combatant who has just arisen is in condition to continue. If so assured, the referee shall, without loss of time, order both unarmed combatants to go on with the contest or exhibition. During the intervention by the referee, the striking of a blow by either unarmed combatant may be ruled a foul.

NAC 467.745  Resumption of count in certain circumstances. (NRS 467.030)
1.  If a knockdown occurs before the normal termination of a period of unarmed combat and the unarmed combatant who is down stands up before the count of 10 is reached and then falls down immediately without being struck, the referee shall resume the count where it was left off.

[Kalan]

Most of what you stated is here except the prohibition against the timekeeper being able to count a fighter out - there is no rule stated for a situation where the referee NEVER picks up the count - the rules make the assumption that the ref will eventually pick up the count. So it seems there is no answer that that particular situation.

[APerno quoting the rules] "if a fighter stands up after a KD and then falls back down again the referee does not restart the count, but continues the count ... funny, but this is one Walcott got right that night.

The timekeeper, by effective signaling, shall give the referee the correct 1-second interval for the count. The referee’s count is the official count. Once the referee picks up the count from the timekeeper, the timekeeper shall cease counting.

If the opponent fails to stay in the farthest corner, the referee shall cease counting until the opponent has returned to his or her corner and shall then go on with the count from the point at which it was interrupted.

If a knockdown occurs before the normal termination of a period of unarmed combat and the unarmed combatant who is down stands up before the count of 10 is reached and then falls down immediately without being struck, the referee shall resume the count where it was left off.

Let's stop with the nonsense and deal in common sense... Liston didn't get up and go back down.. He fell back after rising to a knee, which many fighters do. He didn't do a Zab Judah -- he was only down once.

I've seen rules that state only the referee and not the timekeeper can count the boxer out... That makes sense because you don't want split authority on something that decisive... About the only instance where the referee WOULDN'T pick up the count withing 10 seconds would be if he were dealing with an incorrigible like Ali -- who refused to go to or stay in a neutral corner at all.

The above statement "The referees' count is the official count" works in this case. The official count never started. Liston got up without an official count. Therefore it logically proceeds that since he was not counted out officially, the fight continues.

Some rule books state that if a boxer refuses to go to a neutral corner the count is suspended AND also state if a boxer fails to stay in a neutral corner the count is suspended.. Both statements address the same same issue of the opponent not being "in" a neutral corner during a count.. Both statements work in this case.. Ali effectively "failed to stay in the farthest neutral corner" and when he did, which was all the time, the count ceased happening. If Ali returned to the farthest neutral corner---or even went there at all---the count would continue where it was interrupted.. In this particular case it was interrupted before it started.. Did an official count ever start??? ... No it did not.. So it would start with "ONE"

[Ambling Alp II]

Also today, fighters, during the mandatory eight count, will often start edging out of the corner toward their hurt opponent; a good ref will turn around and make the fighter retreat a couple of steps back into the neutral corner before he will wave him in.

It is vague, though, isn't? What technically is "in" the corner. I always thought they should make the fighter have a glove on the turnbuckle.

[Kalan]

Let's just say Ali WASN'T in the corner... The most LIBERAL interpretation of "being in" or "staying in" the farthest neutral corner wouldn't apply to what Ali was doing.. It's just that some referees don't like being "officious" and they tend to let boxers get away with murder.

Can you imagine being a referee and letting fights get away from you like that??? ... I've seen real donnybrooks like Fullmer-Giardello where weak referees let the boxers get away with bloody murder and all Hell breaks loose.. The ref loses complete control of the fight.. Walcott was a Heavyweight Champion but he was awe struck by Ali... After Walcott ordered Ali to go to a neutral corner a few times, and tried to push him to a neutral corner several times, he gave up and ignored Ali's antics... Ali sensed Walcott was very weak temperamentally and he acted accordingly... Complete and utter disrespect for a chump.. Give them an inch and they'll take a mile.

Heaven forbid Walcott stop the fight and take a point from the great Ali.. He might be criticized, and Ali wouldn't like him.. But it was more than the pathetic Walcott who ruined life for Liston at that time.. It was Nat Fleischer.. the time keeper.. and the boxing commissioners.. The fight was the most complete, utter, and broadly based screw up and screw job I've ever seen in my life.