Wishful Thinking: Shelby Mont.
Wishful Thinking: Shelby Mont.
Just three days before the fight Shelby Montana still had high hopes; or at least that was the face they were showing the public. - Estimated gate receipts, $600,000 - I don't think so.
Re: Wishful Thinking: Shelby Mont.
On other threads on BoxRec, I have written about the extremely bad plan of staging a world heavyweight bout in a very small town located in one of the most sparsely populated areas of Montana, which had a population of only about 500,000 and was in the throes of very bad economic situation (especially in the rural areas) that lasted for about twenty years until the beginning of World War II. I myself am a native of Great Falls, Montana and my dad's family had substantial livestock and ranching interests in the state for close to 100 years until the late 1980s.
- Chuck Johnston
- Chuck Johnston
Re: Wishful Thinking: Shelby Mont.
Take a look at very optimistic financial figures that were projected for the scheduled world heavyweight bout between Jack Dempsey and Tommy Gibbons if everything went as planned. Even if there was a miracle resulting in the bout having a gate of $600,000., Dempsey would get his guarantee of $310,000. and Gibbons would receive $145,000. based on getting 50% of the gate above $310,000. That would mean Dempsey and Gibbons would get a total of $455,000. or about 76% of the $600,000. gate. Since building the arena cost an estimated $85,000., there would only be about $60,000. left over for other expenses, taxes and a possible profit under the best of circumstances.
Yet there was a great deal of doubt that the bout was going to take place as scheduled because the promotional group had a great deal of trouble in getting enough money to pay Dempsey's guarantee in three installments of $100,000. each for all total of $300,000., all in advance. Under the circumstances, how many people were going to travel hundreds or thousands of miles to Shelby, Montana if there was a very good chance that the bout wasn't going to take place? Yet the financial success of the promotion was very dependent on a large number of people traveling such long distances to see the bout.
Yet there was a great deal of doubt that the bout was going to take place as scheduled because the promotional group had a great deal of trouble in getting enough money to pay Dempsey's guarantee in three installments of $100,000. each for all total of $300,000., all in advance. Under the circumstances, how many people were going to travel hundreds or thousands of miles to Shelby, Montana if there was a very good chance that the bout wasn't going to take place? Yet the financial success of the promotion was very dependent on a large number of people traveling such long distances to see the bout.
Last edited by Chuck1052 on 31 May 2017, 12:18, edited 1 time in total.
Re: Wishful Thinking: Shelby Mont.
No doubt Kearns, with his on again, off again announcements was the death knell of the fight - I am not certain, but I believe it was only two weeks before the fight when Kearns, looking to leverage the second hundred thousand from Shelby, announced yet again, that he was sending Dempsey back to New York - I believe that particular announcement actually caused several scheduled trains (smokers) to cancel.
But to add injury to injury (making up my own phrases now) Shelby got screwed again with the film of the fight. - Originally the film's proceeds where suppose to be icing on the cake, but when things went sour it became their back-up plan. - Shelby believed they would be able to skirt the interstate prohibition (the Sims Act) in the same manner Tex Rickard had a year earlier, with the Dempsey-Carpentier fight; Rickard had succeeded in getting several northern cities (Chicago in particular) to wink at the law, making himself and Dempsey some extra bucks with several distributions to theaters.
But, whether it was because Shelby didn't know how to navigate the Feds the way Rickard did, or maybe because the Feds were embarrassed when Rickard was able to get Chicago to ignore the law, this time out the Feds changed their tune and came down hard on the film, killing any real chance of distribution/profit - Shelby got screwed again.
I always thought Shelby (Dempsey-Gibbons) would have made a good HBO movie; it has such a cast of characters, and much tragedy.
I want to add this anecdote: back in '96 when our daughter was born we decided to name her Dempsey. (Our son is named Louis) - That day, just minutes later, another little girl was born in the adjacent room. Later, when the two families met and exchanged salutations, we exchanged names, we said "Dempsey Marie" and the other family politely made all the right noises, you know: "Oh, how original, isn't that cute, ETC" - so when they reciprocated and told us their little girl was named 'Shelby' I burst out laughing; everyone froze, and glared at me. I spent the rest of the night trying to explain I was laughing at the irony, not the damn kid's name, but couldn't find a fight fan anywhere to back me up.
But to add injury to injury (making up my own phrases now) Shelby got screwed again with the film of the fight. - Originally the film's proceeds where suppose to be icing on the cake, but when things went sour it became their back-up plan. - Shelby believed they would be able to skirt the interstate prohibition (the Sims Act) in the same manner Tex Rickard had a year earlier, with the Dempsey-Carpentier fight; Rickard had succeeded in getting several northern cities (Chicago in particular) to wink at the law, making himself and Dempsey some extra bucks with several distributions to theaters.
But, whether it was because Shelby didn't know how to navigate the Feds the way Rickard did, or maybe because the Feds were embarrassed when Rickard was able to get Chicago to ignore the law, this time out the Feds changed their tune and came down hard on the film, killing any real chance of distribution/profit - Shelby got screwed again.
I always thought Shelby (Dempsey-Gibbons) would have made a good HBO movie; it has such a cast of characters, and much tragedy.
I want to add this anecdote: back in '96 when our daughter was born we decided to name her Dempsey. (Our son is named Louis) - That day, just minutes later, another little girl was born in the adjacent room. Later, when the two families met and exchanged salutations, we exchanged names, we said "Dempsey Marie" and the other family politely made all the right noises, you know: "Oh, how original, isn't that cute, ETC" - so when they reciprocated and told us their little girl was named 'Shelby' I burst out laughing; everyone froze, and glared at me. I spent the rest of the night trying to explain I was laughing at the irony, not the damn kid's name, but couldn't find a fight fan anywhere to back me up.
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Re: Wishful Thinking: Shelby Mont.
They didn't know about Shelby? What is wrong with these people?! 
That is a good story.
As for the fight, obviously some huge mistakes were made. Expecting to get 40,000 peole in a town that small without any big cities near it was crazy. It amazing that they even got 20,000.
They probably guaranteed Demspey a bit too much and didn't charge as much as they should have for the tickets as well.
That is a good story.
As for the fight, obviously some huge mistakes were made. Expecting to get 40,000 peole in a town that small without any big cities near it was crazy. It amazing that they even got 20,000.
They probably guaranteed Demspey a bit too much and didn't charge as much as they should have for the tickets as well.
Re: Wishful Thinking: Shelby Mont.
Because of the federal law prohibiting the interstate transportation of fight films, the fight film rights for the world heavyweight title bout between Jack Dempsey and Tommy Gibbons probably were not that lucrative. Moreover, the financial success of boxing promotions of the 1920s was overwhelmingly dependent on the gate receipts, hence the importance of having major boxing promotions being staged in major cities.
It may have been possible that the promotion of Dempsey-Gibbons bout in Shelby could have been a financial success, but the odds were overwhelmingly against it. Beside being staged in an absolutely terrible venue and without enough money on hand to pay the three $100,000. installments of Dempsey's massive guarantee of $300,000. on time, the bout was being staged by an absolutely inept promotional group without any previous experience in staging major bouts.
It has been pointed out that the world heavyweight title bout between Jack Johnson and Jim Jeffries drew a record-breaking gate of about $270,000. and had very lucrative film rights while being staged in the very small city of Reno, Nevada. But the main promoter of that bout was none other than Tex Rickard, who certainly had previous experience in staging major bouts at the time. It also helped that the Johnson-Jeffries bout was the most anticipated one in boxing history up to that time. Staging the bout in Reno was a distinct "Plan B" for Rickard after the Governor of California suddenly banned the bout from taking place in San Francisco with a little less than three weeks before July 4, 1910, the scheduled date of the bout. Yet Rickard was able to build an arena and stage the bout in Reno despite the time constraints.
- Chuck Johnston
It may have been possible that the promotion of Dempsey-Gibbons bout in Shelby could have been a financial success, but the odds were overwhelmingly against it. Beside being staged in an absolutely terrible venue and without enough money on hand to pay the three $100,000. installments of Dempsey's massive guarantee of $300,000. on time, the bout was being staged by an absolutely inept promotional group without any previous experience in staging major bouts.
It has been pointed out that the world heavyweight title bout between Jack Johnson and Jim Jeffries drew a record-breaking gate of about $270,000. and had very lucrative film rights while being staged in the very small city of Reno, Nevada. But the main promoter of that bout was none other than Tex Rickard, who certainly had previous experience in staging major bouts at the time. It also helped that the Johnson-Jeffries bout was the most anticipated one in boxing history up to that time. Staging the bout in Reno was a distinct "Plan B" for Rickard after the Governor of California suddenly banned the bout from taking place in San Francisco with a little less than three weeks before July 4, 1910, the scheduled date of the bout. Yet Rickard was able to build an arena and stage the bout in Reno despite the time constraints.
- Chuck Johnston
Last edited by Chuck1052 on 30 May 2017, 14:47, edited 1 time in total.
Re: Wishful Thinking: Shelby Mont.
It probably didn't help Shelby either that Rickard was building a Dempsey defense in New York as early as January of '23 - (Which I guess develops into the Dempsey-Firpo fight in November); Rickard was able to sign Dempsey to the Firpo fight only two weeks after the Shelby fiasco.
Kearns kept using Rickard's possible NY fight as leverage against Shelby - although I suspect Kearns didn't actually want to go back with Rickard; I believe he had to see that there was a chance Rickard would squeeze him out; and why work a three-way-split anyway? - of course they all learned in Shelby, why they needed Rickard.
This is from January 1923 - it is interesting that Rickard is talking a June 30th defense
Kearns kept using Rickard's possible NY fight as leverage against Shelby - although I suspect Kearns didn't actually want to go back with Rickard; I believe he had to see that there was a chance Rickard would squeeze him out; and why work a three-way-split anyway? - of course they all learned in Shelby, why they needed Rickard.
This is from January 1923 - it is interesting that Rickard is talking a June 30th defense
Re: Wishful Thinking: Shelby Mont.
Because of personal legal issues about statutory rape allegations, Tex Rickard apparently could not devote enough time that was needed to stage another super bout for a couple of years after the one between Jack Dempsey and Georges Carpentier. Another consideration is that Rickard may have had some trouble finding a viable opponent for Dempsey in such a super bout if he or Dempsey crossed Harry Wills off the list.
- Chuck Johnston
- Chuck Johnston
Re: Wishful Thinking: Shelby Mont.
I always wonder what that New York 'morality charge' was about - ran into it in several readings but no one ever offered any details as to what actual charge was.
The above article has Rickard trying to build-up Dempsey-Willard II, I think (LOL) that confirms you theory, take Wills out of the picture and Rickard is out there trolling - you might even argue he had to leave the country (Firpo) to find a suitable/viable opponent.
Do you know if Rickard promoted the Willard-Firpo fight? - I am assuming he did.
The above article has Rickard trying to build-up Dempsey-Willard II, I think (LOL) that confirms you theory, take Wills out of the picture and Rickard is out there trolling - you might even argue he had to leave the country (Firpo) to find a suitable/viable opponent.
Do you know if Rickard promoted the Willard-Firpo fight? - I am assuming he did.
Re: Wishful Thinking: Shelby Mont.
The fight was actually on target to be a success until Kearns last minute shinnanigans. A ton of pre orders, bookings, and special train reservations were cancelled by patrons last minute due to Kearns threatening to withdraw.