Jess Willard vrs Jack Johnson/100th Anniversary

[APerno]

Well if you read his 1978 autobiography, you will read that he said he was invited to discuss it at such places
as "at the top of the Empire State Building and on "the Staten Island Ferry".
and then about a paragraph or two later in the book he talks about preparing to fight Tami Maureillo.
so I just put 2 and 2 together myself,you know what I mean ?

The top of the Empire State Building - that is wonderful; the stuff Hollywood is made of - why not just meet on 5th Ave outside the front door?

[APerno]

Well if you read his 1978 autobiography, you will read that he said he was invited to discuss it at such places
as "at the top of the Empire State Building and on "the Staten Island Ferry".
and then about a paragraph or two later in the book he talks about preparing to fight Tami Maureillo.
so I just put 2 and 2 together myself,you know what I mean ?

Here's an argument the Mauriello had some connections . . .

[APerno]

Hey Kalan - you'll love (hate) this - nothing new in the argument, so don't waste your time reading it, we said it all before, (plus more) - but, you will just love that it claims the temperature was "100+" - take a look - I feel certain whoever wrote this has no empirical proof as to what the real temperature was that day (considering how hard we have tried to find that info) but it is an urban legend; so when someone writes a Johnson-Willard piece, they just go ahead and include it, no one looks it up anymore; no one checks to see if it is true. I am sure that must drive you crazy.

Temperature: 100+ F/ 37.7+ C

He even has it in celsius; so watch out maybe he knows something we don't

http://www.fightsaga.com/tidbits/item/2 ... troversies

[APerno]

Kalan got another one - this one has a (supposed) Willard quote:

From Boxing News 24

"Upon hearing Johnson’s claim that he had taken a dive Willard responded that he wished Johnson had not waited until the 26th round, citing the 100 plus temperature in Havana."

The entire Internet is conspiring against you; I wonder how many alternative facts I can find; everyone loves to mention the temperature; I'll keep looking for you.

http://www.boxingnews24.com/2011/10/fam ... k-johnson/

[APerno]

Kalan here is a book written as late as 2006 still confirming the 100+ temperature - this one calls itself an encyclopedia.

https://books.google.com/books?id=n0P04 ... 15&f=false

[APerno]

Ok I am getting bored: Kalan one more - this one even has 'official' in its title - how can you still argue, reality no longer counts in this world, only what the Internet says is, is. That's why our president tweets at 2:00 AM

This one even has it at 105

From: Boxing Register: International Hall of Fame, Official Record Book

https://books.google.com/books?id=aA2LO ... 15&f=false

[APerno]

Kalan - I think I found proof that you are very likely correct - this page gives the weather for Havana back to 2010 - that gives us 240 April days to look at (2010 - 2017 inclusive) - in those 240 days I found only three 93 degree days, nothing higher. And only a handful of 90 and 91 degree days as well - the mean temperature seems to be in the mid 80s (many high 70s days) - hard to imagine the temperature going above 100 when in 240 days it only reached 93 three times.- The humidity can get high though.

https://www.timeanddate.com/weather/cub ... &year=2017

[Kalan]

On the subject of Willard... Jack Dempsey generally respected his opponents... He wrote very respectfully about Carpentier, Gibbons, Sharkey, Tunney, Brennan, Miske, Smith, Fulton, Meehan, John Lester Johnson, and even the inept Luis Angel Firpo, who was little more than a punching bag.

But Dempsey had very unkind things to say about Willard and Morris, even when they were alive. So did Doc Kearns. Dempsey and Kearns had a major falling out over finances, but they always respected each other. Kearns said guys like Willard and Morris were plastic phonies who exploited Boxing and didn't belong in the same ring with a real fighter. Dempsey called Willard a "big bum" who he hit as hard as he could because punching him was as easy as throwing a pine cone at the side of a barn. I'm not sure he was the worst, but of all Heavyweight Champions Willard was the least professional.

I am sorry to hear that Dempsey spoke that way about another fighter - are you sure your source is a good one - hubris never seemed to be one of Dempsey's faults.

Below is an article where Dempsey refuses to take a reporter's bait and trash talk, but that does not mean he hadn't other times. (I am not trying to be 'devious' - just sharing info, OK?)

'finances' that is an interesting way to say it, another way to say it is, Kearns was stealing from Dempsey; that's why Dempsey dumped him - also they say the new wife had a hand in Kearns' demise.

The death knell for Kearns didn't toll with Dempsey... Kearns remained active in Boxing for many decades and had a hand in managing Micky Walker, Joey Maxim, Archie Moore, and many others.. He was a sharp operator. Dempsey admitted he wouldn't have become Heavyweight Champion if it weren't for Kearns, who he called the greatest boxing expert ever. Dempsey was inactive for 3 years and won 1 of 3 fights following his break up with Kearns.

[APerno]

On the subject of Willard... Jack Dempsey generally respected his opponents... He wrote very respectfully about Carpentier, Gibbons, Sharkey, Tunney, Brennan, Miske, Smith, Fulton, Meehan, John Lester Johnson, and even the inept Luis Angel Firpo, who was little more than a punching bag.

But Dempsey had very unkind things to say about Willard and Morris, even when they were alive. So did Doc Kearns. Dempsey and Kearns had a major falling out over finances, but they always respected each other. Kearns said guys like Willard and Morris were plastic phonies who exploited Boxing and didn't belong in the same ring with a real fighter. Dempsey called Willard a "big bum" who he hit as hard as he could because punching him was as easy as throwing a pine cone at the side of a barn. I'm not sure he was the worst, but of all Heavyweight Champions Willard was the least professional.

I am sorry to hear that Dempsey spoke that way about another fighter - are you sure your source is a good one - hubris never seemed to be one of Dempsey's faults.

Below is an article where Dempsey refuses to take a reporter's bait and trash talk, but that does not mean he hadn't other times. (I am not trying to be 'devious' - just sharing info, OK?)

'finances' that is an interesting way to say it, another way to say it is, Kearns was stealing from Dempsey; that's why Dempsey dumped him - also they say the new wife had a hand in Kearns' demise.

The death knell for Kearns didn't toll with Dempsey... Kearns remained active in Boxing for many decades and had a hand in managing Micky Walker, Joey Maxim, Archie Moore, and many others.. He was a sharp operator. Dempsey admitted he wouldn't have become Heavyweight Champion if it weren't for Kearns, who he called the greatest boxing expert ever. Dempsey was inactive for 3 years and won 1 of 3 fights following his break up with Kearns.

My use of the word demise was meant solely for his relationship with Dempsey - I realize it did not end his career. - They did indeed reconciled after some time, (and the line about Kearns making him champion is in Dempsey the mini-series from the 1980s; I am trying to find a news article from that dinner, the one where Dempsey supposedly made that statement, it was some kind of sports writers dinner) but at the time (circa 1925-27) the issue was quite contentious. I have several newspaper reports that show a bitter - nasty legal battle as well as verbal sparring over Dempsey's wife (Estelle Taylor). There is one article that suggests Dempsey felt obliged to choose his wife over Kearns because neither would compromise; would tolerate the other's presence. - Thy were suing and counter suing each other for $500,000.

[Kalan]

Back to the subject at hand ... Willard was a big defenseless bum who Dempsey battered with almost every swing until he was a wrecked hulk of fat and flesh.

[APerno]

You certainly don't think much of Willard; so how about a Willard-Carnera bout?

[Kalan]

Carnera wins easily... I can't see Willard surviving against the Sharkey who won the decision in the first of his 2 Carnera fights.. Sharkey also had Jack Dempsey almost knocked out for 6 rounds. He gave Jack a brutal beating -- until Dempsey landed a series of low blows in the 7th and Sharkey grabbed his groin screaming at the apparently blind referee.. That was a big mistake on Sharkey's part.. He should have gone down clutching his groin -- but he left his chin wide open.

[APerno]

Carnera wins easily... I can't see Willard surviving against the Sharkey who won the decision in the first of his 2 Carnera fights.. Sharkey also had Jack Dempsey almost knocked out for 6 rounds. He gave Jack a brutal beating -- until Dempsey landed a series of low blows in the 7th and Sharkey grabbed his groin screaming at the apparently blind referee.. That was a big mistake on Sharkey's part.. He should have gone down clutching his groin -- but he left his chin wide open.

I think Sharkey was at his best in '26 / '27 - he had Dempsey until he looked away; he handled (a faded) Wills six months earlier - but I think the Sharkey Carnera met was a different (faded) Sharkey - I like (1915) Willard against Carnera, nether could box, hell neither could fight, but Willard took a better punch and could hit with some power, Carnera could do neither; Willard in 12.

I take it that we do agree they are the bottom of the heap?

[Kalan]

No we don't agree... Carnera was a poor boxer but he was a legitimate Heavyweight Champion who trained very hard and regularly before and after he won the Heavyweight Championship.. He tried very diligently to improve his game and his defense.. Willard had little interest in Boxing.

I put Willard on the bottom with Michael Bentt, Leon Spinks, Marvin Hart, Tommy Burns, and Tommy Morrison... As horrific as Carnera was he'd beat all those guys.. I love the way every time Carnera beats anybody they're way past their prime.. But Willard who never beat a championship caliber fighter in his life except for the fraudulent Johnson fight could somehow beat Carnera.. Carnera was a real professional boxer with over 100 fights.

Willard was like 3 X as easy to hit as Carnera.. You couldn't just load and throw at Carnera.. You had to get him into position, meanwhile you might take a few jabs, hooks, uppercuts, and rights.. Carnera was a busy boxer who kept his hands moving.. He had 102 professional fights scoring 88 wins.. including Jack Sharkey, Tommy Loughran, Ernie Schaaf, George Godfrey, King Levinsky (twice), Paulino Uzcudun, Bearcat Wright, KO Christner, Art Lasky and other noted boxers of the 30's.. In contrast Willard had a rather plastic career and wasn't as interested in Boxing as exploiting the sport for money.

[APerno]

[Kalan]

I think Sharkey was at his best in '26 / '27 - he had Dempsey until he looked away; he handled (a faded) Wills six months earlier - but I think the Sharkey Carnera met was a different (faded) Sharkey - I like (1915) Willard against Carnera, nether could box, hell neither could fight, but Willard took a better punch and could hit with some power, Carnera could do neither

Carnera was a better boxer and puncher. From observing their fights he obviously had better defensive and technical skills. He had a higher winning ratio, higher KO ratio 69% to 59%, and a lower KO'd by ratio 5% to 11%. He fought better fighters. He fought more often and was always very fit. Willard's conditioning was often questionable. Sharkey was 29 when he first met Carnera. Hard to say he was faded because he was still driving for the World Title.

Carnera beat 2 World Champions in Jack Sharkey and Tommy Loughran. Willard was dominated like an amateur versus men of that caliber. He even lost to Light Heavyweights Tom McMahon (175) and Gunboat Smith (180).. Neither was the caliber boxer Loughran was.

[APerno]

I think Sharkey was at his best in '26 / '27 - he had Dempsey until he looked away; he handled (a faded) Wills six months earlier - but I think the Sharkey Carnera met was a different (faded) Sharkey - I like (1915) Willard against Carnera, nether could box, hell neither could fight, but Willard took a better punch and could hit with some power, Carnera could do neither

Carnera was a better boxer and puncher. From observing their fights he obviously had better defensive and technical skills. He had a higher winning ratio, higher KO ratio 69% to 59%, and a lower KO'd by ratio 5% to 11%. He fought better fighters. He fought more often and was always very fit. Willard's conditioning was often questionable. Sharkey was 29 when he first met Carnera. Hard to say he was faded because he was still driving for the World Title.

Carnera beat 2 World Champions in Jack Sharkey and Tommy Loughran. Willard was dominated like an amateur versus men of that caliber. He even lost to Light Heavyweights Tom McMahon (175) and Gunboat Smith (180).. Neither was the caliber boxer Loughran was.

Yes - that is why I posted the article above - it looks as though Braddock saw dangers/disadvantages in fighting Carnera; he didn't see it as an easy fight.

[Kalan]

It's strictly a matter of styles..

Braddock was Patterson sized.. And he was no dummy.. He wasn't a big, powerful swinger like Baer who could mow Carnera down.. Even Jack Sharkey could swing big.. Braddock was more like a Light Heavyweight. He had nothing on his shots for a man Carnera's size.. It's a like Duran fighting Hearns and Barkley.. Barkley was a very good match-up because he could box him.. Duran was too short, small shouldered, and lacking in arm length and swing for Hearns.

Braddock didn't have that Dempsey or Louis type frame with the waist, shoulders, and base. It's like Hank Aaron. He wasn't big, tall, or super strong, but he had a compact batting swing and the ball would keep going if he made good contact.. Patterson was a fabulous puncher for his size, but no Dempsey.. He didn't have the arms or the cut.. You knew Liston was going to smash Patterson worse than anybody else because he was right in front of you.

[Caractacus]

I think I had read somewhere where the average tempertature in Havana for the months of June was 81 degrees F.
I wonder though,Jess Willard was still alive when Howard Sackler published the book THE GREAT WHITE HOPE in 1967.
and Willard was interviewed a few times in the 1960's when he was in his 80's.
Since it was also hot in Toledo Ohio in 1919 ,maybe he may have gotten the conditions of the 2 fights a bit confused over the intervening years
and that may be a source that it may have been over a 100 degrees in Havana ,as he recalled over 50 years later?

[Caractacus]

-A Blast from the Past-

Hear the voice of Jess Willard in 1967 (at age 85 years).
beginning at about 2:00 of this clip talking about the Heat that day in Havana Cuba

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-xKXXGRJR0E

and you can also hear Jess Willard speak about Jack Johnson at about 8:00 of this clip.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fuzzswy0yLg

[Kalan]

Tons of racism that went into the All-Time Tournament.. No computer or expert determined the winner or the match-ups just a few racist white men.. Before the tournament began I predicted that 2 white guys, Marciano and Dempsey would meet in the final and Rocky would win... I knew how those guys think.

As you heard, they asked Marciano who would win the Louis-Willard fight and Rocky said "Louis takes this in 3 or 4 rounds" ... I guess that didn't have any input into the computer.. During the fantasy broadcast the announcer compares Louis's 15-round effort vs Willard unfavorably to Dempsey's 3-round destruction of Willard.. And naturally they had Dempsey also beating Louis, another unlikely result..

Before the fantasy Johnson-Baer fight, they asked Louis who would win.. He said something to the effect of, "My trainer Jack Blackburn was extremely high on Jack Johnson, so I have to go with Johnson" ... I guess that didn't have any input into the computer either.. Louis had 14 months of professional experience when he boxed Baer's ears off, knocked him down 3 times, and made him quit in 4 rounds.. That wasn't input into the computer either.. Having Baer beat Johnson was the worst abomination of that phony enterprise.

[APerno]

Tons of racism that went into the All-Time Tournament.. No computer or expert determined the winner or the match-ups just a few racist white men.. Before the tournament began I predicted that 2 white guys, Marciano and Dempsey would meet in the final and Rocky would win... I knew how those guys think.

As you heard, they asked Marciano who would win the Louis-Willard fight and Rocky said "Louis takes this in 3 or 4 rounds" ... I guess that didn't have any input into the computer.. During the fantasy broadcast the announcer compares Louis's 15-round effort vs Willard unfavorably to Dempsey's 3-round destruction of Willard.. And naturally they had Dempsey also beating Louis, another unlikely result..

Before the fantasy Johnson-Baer fight, they asked Louis who would win.. He said something to the effect of, "My trainer Jack Blackburn was extremely high on Jack Johnson, so I have to go with Johnson" ... I guess that didn't have any input into the computer either.. Louis had 14 months of professional experience when he boxed Baer's ears off, knocked him down 3 times, and made him quit in 4 rounds.. That wasn't input into the computer either.. Having Baer beat Johnson was the worst abomination of that phony enterprise.

Which computer tournament are you referring to? - The I saw (listen to on the radio) had Ali an Marciano in the final bout - they filmed four endings to the fight (they only recreated the final fight) - the final presentation had Marciano defeating Ali (I think by KO) - which tournament are you referring to?

[APerno]

Tons of racism that went into the All-Time Tournament.. No computer or expert determined the winner or the match-ups just a few racist white men.. Before the tournament began I predicted that 2 white guys, Marciano and Dempsey would meet in the final and Rocky would win... I knew how those guys think.

As you heard, they asked Marciano who would win the Louis-Willard fight and Rocky said "Louis takes this in 3 or 4 rounds" ... I guess that didn't have any input into the computer.. During the fantasy broadcast the announcer compares Louis's 15-round effort vs Willard unfavorably to Dempsey's 3-round destruction of Willard.. And naturally they had Dempsey also beating Louis, another unlikely result..

Before the fantasy Johnson-Baer fight, they asked Louis who would win.. He said something to the effect of, "My trainer Jack Blackburn was extremely high on Jack Johnson, so I have to go with Johnson" ... I guess that didn't have any input into the computer either.. Louis had 14 months of professional experience when he boxed Baer's ears off, knocked him down 3 times, and made him quit in 4 rounds.. That wasn't input into the computer either.. Having Baer beat Johnson was the worst abomination of that phony enterprise.

Interesting I just found a reference to your statement - you are once again correct - it was Marciano-Dempsey in the finals, that is until Ali sued (lol) then they made a deal and recreated the "final" I was referring to


All-Time Tournament

On January 20, 1970, The Superfight – Ali vs. Marciano was shown on time in 1500 theatres across North America and Europe.

Murry Woroner, a Miami boxing promoter, conducted a radio series of fantasy fights between Champs of years past. A then state-of-the-art computer was fed statistics about each of the fighters. A revolutionary new software program allowed the computer to predict what would have happened had the fighters met at the peak of their careers.

Announcers read the punch-by-punch commentary. Marciano won the tournament, beating Jack Dempsey. Ali, who lost early in the series, felt slighted and sued Woroner for defamation of character.

The lawsuit was settled when Woroner agreed to have the computer decide a match between Ali and the “All-Time Computer Champ” Marciano. Worner then convinced the two champions to simulate on film what the computer predicted.

Full article: http://www.theboxingmagazine.com/all-ti ... naments-2/

[APerno]

Tons of racism that went into the All-Time Tournament.. No computer or expert determined the winner or the match-ups just a few racist white men.. Before the tournament began I predicted that 2 white guys, Marciano and Dempsey would meet in the final and Rocky would win... I knew how those guys think.

As you heard, they asked Marciano who would win the Louis-Willard fight and Rocky said "Louis takes this in 3 or 4 rounds" ... I guess that didn't have any input into the computer.. During the fantasy broadcast the announcer compares Louis's 15-round effort vs Willard unfavorably to Dempsey's 3-round destruction of Willard.. And naturally they had Dempsey also beating Louis, another unlikely result..

Before the fantasy Johnson-Baer fight, they asked Louis who would win.. He said something to the effect of, "My trainer Jack Blackburn was extremely high on Jack Johnson, so I have to go with Johnson" ... I guess that didn't have any input into the computer either.. Louis had 14 months of professional experience when he boxed Baer's ears off, knocked him down 3 times, and made him quit in 4 rounds.. That wasn't input into the computer either.. Having Baer beat Johnson was the worst abomination of that phony enterprise.

At the time (me being a 15 year old kid) we were unaware of the suit/controversy; we all assumed that Ali and Marciano were the last two fighters standing - very few had even heard of the tournament until they announced the staged Ali-Marciano fight - I had listen to several of the fights on the radio but didn't hear all the fights nor the final - the only one I can remember clearly (I think) was Ali outpointing Max Schmeling - do you know if there is a tournament bracket we an look at?

[Kalan]

Murry Woroner, a Miami boxing promoter, conducted a radio series of fantasy fights between Champs of years past. A then state-of-the-art computer was fed statistics about each of the fighters. A revolutionary new software program allowed the computer to predict what would have happened had the fighters met at the peak of their careers

If you believe that promotional garbage about the state-of-the-art computer and software, I have a toll bridge and some swamp land in Florida to sell you...

If a computer could figure out the winner of a fight (or ANY sporting contest for that matter) it would be the end of sports betting... Humans do much better in that realm than computers... First of all, it's impossible to figure out winners from pure statistics... Secondly, any inputs to any so-called computers were tweaked and tweaked until they came up with the exact match-ups, dramatic fights, endings and results the promoters wanted.. It was created and fashioned for a white audience and black folks laughed at the results. Dempsey beats Louis??? Dempsey was a wide open swinger with no jab who couldn't stop Gibbons, so why not? .... Baer beats Johnson??? Bear never beat a great boxer and Louis jabbed him to death and finished him in 4 rounds, so why not?

The match-ups and results were highly predictable.. Exactly what you'd expect from a bunch of foggy old white guys.. "How do we knock off Louis??? Dempsey!!! Seems plausible.... How do we get rid of Johnson??? How about Bear? He's big and strong enough to outpoint Johnson I’d say. Seems plausible.... Okay who beats Clay??? How about Jim Jeffries? Done!!! ... Hmm...Tunney didn't make for any exciting fights. How do we knock him off??? How about Rocky??? He beat Charles so why not Tunney??? Brilliant!!!"

That’s not exactly what was said, but they took the 16 guys they wanted... matched them however they wanted... and came up with the winners they wanted.