Jess Willard vrs Jack Johnson/100th Anniversary

[APerno]

Murry Woroner, a Miami boxing promoter, conducted a radio series of fantasy fights between Champs of years past. A then state-of-the-art computer was fed statistics about each of the fighters. A revolutionary new software program allowed the computer to predict what would have happened had the fighters met at the peak of their careers

If you believe that promotional garbage about the state-of-the-art computer and software, I have a toll bridge and some swamp land in Florida to sell you...

If a computer could figure out the winner of a fight (or ANY sporting contest for that matter) it would be the end of sports betting... Humans do much better in that realm than computers... First of all, it's impossible to figure out winners from pure statistics... Secondly, any inputs to any so-called computers were tweaked and tweaked until they came up with the exact match-ups, dramatic fights, endings and results the promoters wanted.. It was created and fashioned for a white audience and black folks laughed at the results. Dempsey beats Louis??? Dempsey was a wide open swinger with no jab who couldn't stop Gibbons, so why not? .... Baer beats Johnson??? Bear never beat a great boxer and Louis jabbed him to death and finished him in 4 rounds, so why not?

The match-ups and results were highly predictable.. Exactly what you'd expect from a bunch of foggy old white guys.. "How do we knock off Louis??? Dempsey!!! Seems plausible.... How do we get rid of Johnson??? How about Bear? He's big and strong enough to outpoint Johnson I’d say. Seems plausible.... Okay who beats Clay??? How about Jim Jeffries? Done!!! ... Hmm...Tunney didn't make for any exciting fights. How do we knock him off??? How about Rocky??? He beat Charles so why not Tunney??? Brilliant!!!"

That’s not exactly what was said, but they took the 16 guys they wanted... matched them however they wanted... and came up with the winners they wanted.

Kalan come on I didn't write I was posting and article about the switch from Dempsey yo Ali - how did you conclude I was defending the computer - come stop that!

[APerno]

Murry Woroner, a Miami boxing promoter, conducted a radio series of fantasy fights between Champs of years past. A then state-of-the-art computer was fed statistics about each of the fighters. A revolutionary new software program allowed the computer to predict what would have happened had the fighters met at the peak of their careers

If you believe that promotional garbage about the state-of-the-art computer and software, I have a toll bridge and some swamp land in Florida to sell you...

If a computer could figure out the winner of a fight (or ANY sporting contest for that matter) it would be the end of sports betting... Humans do much better in that realm than computers... First of all, it's impossible to figure out winners from pure statistics... Secondly, any inputs to any so-called computers were tweaked and tweaked until they came up with the exact match-ups, dramatic fights, endings and results the promoters wanted.. It was created and fashioned for a white audience and black folks laughed at the results. Dempsey beats Louis??? Dempsey was a wide open swinger with no jab who couldn't stop Gibbons, so why not? .... Baer beats Johnson??? Bear never beat a great boxer and Louis jabbed him to death and finished him in 4 rounds, so why not?

The match-ups and results were highly predictable.. Exactly what you'd expect from a bunch of foggy old white guys.. "How do we knock off Louis??? Dempsey!!! Seems plausible.... How do we get rid of Johnson??? How about Bear? He's big and strong enough to outpoint Johnson I’d say. Seems plausible.... Okay who beats Clay??? How about Jim Jeffries? Done!!! ... Hmm...Tunney didn't make for any exciting fights. How do we knock him off??? How about Rocky??? He beat Charles so why not Tunney??? Brilliant!!!"

That’s not exactly what was said, but they took the 16 guys they wanted... matched them however they wanted... and came up with the winners they wanted.

Do you have the full matchup ? I would love to see the bracket results - if you look at the full article I posted they speak of a second tournament in 2010 - do you know anything about It?

[APerno]

Murry Woroner, a Miami boxing promoter, conducted a radio series of fantasy fights between Champs of years past. A then state-of-the-art computer was fed statistics about each of the fighters. A revolutionary new software program allowed the computer to predict what would have happened had the fighters met at the peak of their careers

If you believe that promotional garbage about the state-of-the-art computer and software, I have a toll bridge and some swamp land in Florida to sell you...

If a computer could figure out the winner of a fight (or ANY sporting contest for that matter) it would be the end of sports betting... Humans do much better in that realm than computers... First of all, it's impossible to figure out winners from pure statistics... Secondly, any inputs to any so-called computers were tweaked and tweaked until they came up with the exact match-ups, dramatic fights, endings and results the promoters wanted.. It was created and fashioned for a white audience and black folks laughed at the results. Dempsey beats Louis??? Dempsey was a wide open swinger with no jab who couldn't stop Gibbons, so why not? .... Baer beats Johnson??? Bear never beat a great boxer and Louis jabbed him to death and finished him in 4 rounds, so why not?

The match-ups and results were highly predictable.. Exactly what you'd expect from a bunch of foggy old white guys.. "How do we knock off Louis??? Dempsey!!! Seems plausible.... How do we get rid of Johnson??? How about Bear? He's big and strong enough to outpoint Johnson I’d say. Seems plausible.... Okay who beats Clay??? How about Jim Jeffries? Done!!! ... Hmm...Tunney didn't make for any exciting fights. How do we knock him off??? How about Rocky??? He beat Charles so why not Tunney??? Brilliant!!!"

That’s not exactly what was said, but they took the 16 guys they wanted... matched them however they wanted... and came up with the winners they wanted.

Kalan come on I didn't write that I was posting and article about the switch from Dempsey yo Ali - how did you conclude I was defending the computer - come on stop that!

[Kalan]

When you said, "A then state-of-the-art computer was fed statistics about each of the fighters. A revolutionary new software program allowed the computer to predict what would have happened had the fighters met at the peak of their careers."

if you were being sarcastic you have to approach that with a little more flair... It sounds like you half believed the promotional nonsense. After all, a lot of people did... People I knew were excited bout these stupid fantasy fights -- and got angry when I put it down and predicted the winners... If people weren't stupid nobody would make a dime off of crappy promotions like this.

[APerno]

When you said, "A then state-of-the-art computer was fed statistics about each of the fighters. A revolutionary new software program allowed the computer to predict what would have happened had the fighters met at the peak of their careers."

if you were being sarcastic you have to approach that with a little more flair... It sounds like you half believed the promotional nonsense. After all, a lot of people did... People I knew were excited bout these stupid fantasy fights -- and got angry when I put it down and predicted the winners... If people weren't stupid nobody would make a dime off of crappy promotions like this.

I didn't say it - it was the article about the tournament I was confirming your statement about the finals being Dempsey - Rocky

[APerno]

When you said, "A then state-of-the-art computer was fed statistics about each of the fighters. A revolutionary new software program allowed the computer to predict what would have happened had the fighters met at the peak of their careers."

if you were being sarcastic you have to approach that with a little more flair... It sounds like you half believed the promotional nonsense. After all, a lot of people did... People I knew were excited bout these stupid fantasy fights -- and got angry when I put it down and predicted the winners... If people weren't stupid nobody would make a dime off of crappy promotions like this.

So let's write our own tournament criteria !

[Kalan]

Okay APerno let's do it your way .... Deep Blue Super Computer picks the 16 best Heavyweights from the 21st Century back to the 19th Century... It comes up with: Joshua, Wlad and Vitali Klitschko, Lewis, Ibeabuchi, Holyfield, Tyson, Foreman, Holmes, Ali, Liston, Louis, Dempsey, Tunney, Johnson, and Jeffries.

1st round... Joshua vs Tunney... Vitali vs Jeffries... Wladimir vs Dempsey... Lewis vs Liston... Ibeabuchi vs Louis... Holyfield vs Tyson... Ali vs Foreman... Holmes vs Johnson

Deep Blue Super Computer computes....Joshua... Vitali... Wladimir... Lewis... Ibeabuchi... Holyfield... Ali... and Holmes...

2nd round... Joshua vs Holyfield... Wladimir vs Ali... Vitali vs Holmes... Ibeabuchi vs Lewis

Deep Blue Super Computer computes....Joshua... Wladimir... Vitali... and Ibeabuchi...

3rd round... Joshua vs Wladimir... Vitali vs Ibeabuchi

Deep Blue Super Computer computes... Joshua... Vitali... who are matched with each other Joshua vs Klitschko

ATGreatest Heavyweight Champion emerges via 12-round decision: Anthony Joshua ...

Who is then matched and emerges victorious by KO against the previous ATGreatest "computer champ" Rocky Marciano

[Caractacus]

-A Blast from the Past-

Hear the voice of Jess Willard in 1967 (at age 85 years).
beginning at about 2:00 of this clip talking about the Heat that day in Havana Cuba

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-xKXXGRJR0E

and you can also hear Jess Willard speak about Jack Johnson at about 8:00 of this clip.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fuzzswy0yLg

I don't know about you but I think Big Jess sounded really coherent as well as articulent for someone his age(85) remembering back 50 years and more

[Caractacus]

and Here is a Bonus for you all-more of the rare radio interview of Jess Willard done at his home in 1967.

At about 3:30 of this clip, Jess Willard gave his opinion of Jim J. Jeffries.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C6O5KXl9Ru0

and about 4:50 of this clip,Willard talks about John L. Sullivan

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f8uDAuxVPtc

and at about 9:00 talks about the fighters of the John L. Sullivan era.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rYS20pmJSC8

[Kalan]

I don't know about you but I think Big Jess sounded really coherent as well as articulent for someone his age(85) remembering back 50 years and more

Are you kidding??? Willard sounded weak and next to death.. And he lied HIS ASS OFF about the temperature in Havana as usual.. Willard dropped dead the following year at 86.. It was obvious his straight right never landed against Johnson, so Willard continued to claim it was an uppercut that won for him. "I only had 2 punches and I never changed. The left and if they got close the right uppercut." ... Pretty simple dude.

An they continue to lie about Willard's height and weight... He was 6'5" and he never weighed above the 230's until an advanced age for a boxer.

[Caractacus]

I wonder if the referee Jack Welsh was ever interviewed or even asked about this fight over the years that was put into print anyway ?
Jack Welsh also referreed the Jack Johnson vrs Stanley Ketchel fight which was controversial too as far as the "knock-down".

[Caractacus]

actually Jack Welsh was interviewed about the fight at some point.because I just came across a quote from him in a recent article.
I dont have the source for the original quote now,but I just read
where he had said

"in the thirteenth and fourteenth ,I was almost sure Johnson would knock Willard out,
but Willard showed that his jaw and body were too tough.
Johnson put up a wonderful fight to the twentieth round,but age stepped in then and defeated him "

[Caractacus]

I just came across this article published in The Philadelphia Tribue of April.10.1915
that gives some interesting quotes by Jess Willard,Jack Johnson and ref Jack Welsh about the fight
( but no mention as to how Hot it actually was in the ring )

http://glc.yale.edu/willard-won-title-johnson-money

[Kalan]

I wonder if the referee Jack Welsh was ever interviewed or even asked about this fight over the years that was put into print anyway ? Jack Welsh also refereed the Jack Johnson vrs Stanley Ketchel fight which was controversial too as far as the "knock-down".

The knockout of Ketchel wasn't controversial -- he was hit with a shattering blow that everyone could see and hear and he fell dead unconscious. I can't see how any boxing commission approves of a man Ketchel's size fighting fighting the best Heavyweight on the planet.. That's not simply risky.. It's nuts!!

From what I heard the Johnson-Ketchel fight was supposed to be a no-decision affair.. The boxers make a non-binding verbal agreement not to punch very hard and go the distance.. Basically a sparring match.. No official decision is rendered so those fights can't harm your record, but it gave boxers a payday without risking a loss.. The newspapers noted a ND affair, but gave their opinions about who boxed the better of the 2 combatants.

Johnson was toying with Ketchel. Punching him up, lifting him easily off the canvas like a toy, and generally talking, taunting, smiling, and laughing his ass off.. Ketchel had a sinister agenda.. Deep in his soul he figured he had enough power to KO a Heavyweight if he caught him perfectly with his Sunday shot because he flattened so many opponents, some bigger than him.. He bidded his time.. When Johnson seemed unwary for a second Ketchel loaded his killer right hander and drove it with all his might to Johnson's chin.. The punch hit Johnson really good, but not like a Heavyweight's punch.

Some writers thought Johnson faked the knockdown to give him an excuse to KO Ketchel.. They underestimated just how hard Ketchel could hit.. He was a tremendous puncher for a Middleweight.. Ketchel thought Johnson was hurt.. Johnson was pissed off to beat Hell.. When Johnson's butt hit the canvas he knew exactly what Ketchel was up to.. He was romping stomping mad and fit to be caged.. Ketchel thought he was seconds from being the hero of the world.. He rushed Johnson with all his strength and swung a mighty blow.. He ran into a Kermit Washington special and fell like he was shot.. As Stanley fell a livid Johnson threw 2 follow up punches that ripped the air and sailed over Ketchel's dropping head. The newspapers reported that several of Ketchel's teeth and some flesh from his gums were attached to Johnson's glove. As Welsh counted Ketchel out, Johnson brushed the teeth and extraneous material off his glove.

[pound per pound]

Having Baer beat Johnson was the worst abomination of that phony enterprise.

Yes, and no. A computer judges the data. Johnson lost to Choynski, Hart, and others, and had trouble with fighters who would be viewed large middleweights such as Jack O'Brien.

Johnson's best win is probably Tommy Burns, who would be lunch in a modern sense. The win in 15 rounds via decision over Langford looks very impressive, but if you notice Langford himself was estimated to be at 156 pounds, 20-21 years of age.

Max Baer is a class above them. Baer had great reach took a fine punch, and had an absolute hammer.

Johnson is too smart to trade or try to wrestle with a bigger / stronger man.

[Kalan]

Having Baer beat Johnson was the worst abomination of that phony enterprise.

Yes, and no. A computer judges the data. Johnson lost to Choynski, Hart, and others, and had trouble with fighters who would be viewed large middleweights such as Jack O'Brien.

Johnson's best win is probably Tommy Burns, who would be lunch in a modern sense. The win in 15 rounds via decision over Langford looks very impressive, but if you notice Langford himself was estimated to be at 156 pounds, 20-21 years of age.

Max Baer is a class above them. Baer had great reach took a fine punch, and had an absolute hammer.

Johnson is too smart to trade or try to wrestle with a bigger / stronger man.

LOL.. Johnson was much stronger than Baer, who Joe Louis man handled.

Johnson's best win was not Burns.. Jack London wrote that Johnson vs Burns was between a colossus and a toy.., "Fight? There was no fight. Burns never landed a blow, never fazed the black man. He tried every moment throughout the fight except when he was groggy. It was hopeless, preposterous ... a dewdrop in Sheol had more chance than Burns ... Johnson Was Too Big, Too Able, Too Clever, Too Superb, Impregnable ... There was never so one sided a world's championship fight in the history of the ring." .. So it was a freakin' mismatch... Johnson had many great wins over bigger n better opponents.

In his prime Johnson beat many noted Heavyweghts: Al Kaufman, Frank Moran, Jim Flynn, Sam McVey, Pat Lester, Sandy Furguson, Joe Jeanette, Ed Martin, and Frank Childes, to say nothing of dominating Jim Jeffries, who was a rock hard 227 and spent many months preparing for the fight with the help of Joe Choynski, Jim Corbett and many others. It was Jeffries only defeat.

By newspaper accounts Johnson, at age 37, out punched Willard 10-1 for 20 rounds.. More rounds than any fight Baer was ever scheduled for in his life.. Newspaper accounts openly questioned the Willard KO punch. They said almost certainly no KO punch landed. No one at ringside saw it or heard it land. Johnson was stopped in his 4th and 11th fights but never in his prime. His other stoppage losses came after age 48.

Baer was knocked out 3 times in his prime by good boxers. He was totally out-boxed and easily knocked out by Joe Louis, who at 198 wasn't as big, powerful, clever or masterful as Johnson... Baer was also knocked out by 202-pound Lou Nova twice at ages 29 and 31... Baer never beat a good boxer who weighed more than 190.. Braddock, Loughran, Louis, Risko, Uzcudun, and Nova beat him.. None of them could box as well as Johnson.

Computers take into consideration the fact that Johnson had only 10 fights when he lost to Choynski -- who had 67 fights.. Johnson beat Hart by all accounts.. Hart's face was battered to a pulp and Johnson was unmarked.. It was a racist referee's decision of which there were many during that period.

[BitPlayer]

Johnson's best win was not Burns

Yes it was

In his prime Johnson beat many noted Heavyweghts: Al Kaufman, Frank Moran, Jim Flynn, Sam McVey, Pat Lester, Sandy Furguson, Joe Jeanette, Ed Martin, and Frank Childes

None of those are more impressive than Burns

Kaufman got KOed by L.Heavyweight O'Brein albeit while young
Moran lost to a lot of not top level fighters.
Flynn lost to Tommy Burns amoungst others
McVey was 18 then 19 when they fought.
Pat Lester was not good, though Johnson was ancient when he beat him
Ferguson lost to Marvin Hart, and a lot of not the best fighters
Jeanette had a load of losses to not the best fighters, and hadn't really done anything when Johnson was fighting him
Ed Martin Some embarassing losses and not really any notable wins
Childes Same really

to say nothing of dominating Jim Jeffries, who was a rock hard 227 and spent many months preparing for the fight with the help of Joe Choynski, Jim Corbett and many others. It was Jeffries only defeat.

You should say nothing of that. It isn't impressive. Jeffries had to lose 100lbs, hadn't fought in 6 years, and only agreed to it becuase of the absurd amount of money on offer, though he thought at points that it was going to be a fixed fight. He was a mess

[Caractacus]

I wonder if the referee Jack Welsh was ever interviewed or even asked about this fight over the years that was put into print anyway ? Jack Welsh also refereed the Jack Johnson vrs Stanley Ketchel fight which was controversial too as far as the "knock-down".

The knockout of Ketchel wasn't controversial -- he was hit with a shattering blow that everyone could see and hear and he fell dead unconscious. I can't see how any boxing commission approves of a man Ketchel's size fighting fighting the best Heavyweight on the planet.. That's not simply risky.. It's nuts!!

From what I heard the Johnson-Ketchel fight was supposed to be a no-decision affair.. The boxers make a non-binding verbal agreement not to punch very hard and go the distance.. Basically a sparring match.. No official decision is rendered so those fights can't harm your record, but it gave boxers a payday without risking a loss.. The newspapers noted a ND affair, but gave their opinions about who boxed the better of the 2 combatants.

Johnson was toying with Ketchel. Punching him up, lifting him easily off the canvas like a toy, and generally talking, taunting, smiling, and laughing his ass off.. Ketchel had a sinister agenda.. Deep in his soul he figured he had enough power to KO a Heavyweight if he caught him perfectly with his Sunday shot because he flattened so many opponents, some bigger than him.. He bidded his time.. When Johnson seemed unwary for a second Ketchel loaded his killer right hander and drove it with all his might to Johnson's chin.. The punch hit Johnson really good, but not like a Heavyweight's punch.

Some writers thought Johnson faked the knockdown to give him an excuse to KO Ketchel.. They underestimated just how hard Ketchel could hit.. He was a tremendous puncher for a Middleweight.. Ketchel thought Johnson was hurt.. Johnson was pissed off to beat Hell.. When Johnson's butt hit the canvas he knew exactly what Ketchel was up to.. He was romping stomping mad and fit to be caged.. Ketchel thought he was seconds from being the hero of the world.. He rushed Johnson with all his strength and swung a mighty blow.. He ran into a Kermit Washington special and fell like he was shot.. As Stanley fell a livid Johnson threw 2 follow up punches that ripped the air and sailed over Ketchel's dropping head. The newspapers reported that several of Ketchel's teeth and some flesh from his gums were attached to Johnson's glove. As Welsh counted Ketchel out, Johnson brushed the teeth and extraneous material off his glove.

You seem to forget that in his own autobiography IN THE RING AND OUT (published in 1927)
Jack Johnson admits that he feigned the knock-down as he had pre-planned it waiting for the right punch to go down.

[Kalan]

Yes... Johnson said EXACTLY that in his autobiography - and it may be the true story... It works better than "A Middleweight knocked me on my ass."

But why was Johnson so damned angry at being hit with a swing like that by a Middleweight??? Why did he try to rip Ketchel's head off immediately??? In a no decision fight they're not supposed to be throwing bombs at each other... They throw really soft stuff for 12 rounds ... and then BOOM!!!

Johnson sold different versions of this story to various Boxing publications over the years.. My post was a different version Johnson related that I read in “Boxing” magazine – one of the many pulp boxing publications like Boxing Illustrated. It was a reprint of a story Johnson published some 30 years previously. It came complete with a long background story with such tidbits as Johnson’s vehicle passing Ketchel’s car on the way to the arena on the day of the fight – at a ridiculous rate of speed, while Ketchel made a funny face at him.

After their laughter died down Johnson’s trainer Bob Armstrong cautioned him with a serious tone in his voice, “We agreed to a ND bout because you’re 2 of the most famous boxers in the world and it's good money. We still have to be extremely wary of Mr. Ketchell. He may have a sinister agenda and try to double cross us... Although Ketchell is only a Middleweight, he can hit harder with a right hand than any other man alive. He may try to put you out when you least suspect it late in the match -- so don’t have too much fun. Be alert for this little powerhouse at all times.”

[Caractacus]

it is now April 15th 2021.
Quick, now How many years have passed ?

[bwu]

Since the fight? I believe 106.

If you’re asking how many years have passed generally, I think the universe started about 13.8 billion years ago.

[Caractacus]

anyone here ever figure out who Kalan was ?
He seemed to have a vast knowledge on the subject of Boxing (IMOP)
over last year I came to a conclusion who he may be.

[Caractacus]

[Ambling Alp II]

anyone here ever figure out who Kalan was ?
He seemed to have a vast knowledge on the subject of Boxing (IMOP)
over last year I came to a conclusion who he may be.

Kalan was a complete fraud. He used to routinely quote a fighters win/loss record as proof of a how good a guy was. People would challenge him on a particular guy, and he would say that the guys win/loss record was what showed a how good a fighter was. Anyone who knows anything about the sport knows how deceiving win/loss records can be.

We have a lot of people on the Forum over the years who are more knowledgeable. Including yourself.

[SenorPipino]

anyone here ever figure out who Kalan was ?
He seemed to have a vast knowledge on the subject of Boxing (IMOP)
over last year I came to a conclusion who he may be.

I'm pretty certain that Kalan has reinvented himself on 'Quora' as someone just as obnoxious named Bob Garrett. He claims to have been a USA certified boxing coach and an all around boxing expert.

Garrett also hates Ali, loves Joshua, quotes Wilt Chamberlain and gives himself away by revealing that he was once introduced as the world's 'hardest hitting heavyweight.' Something that Kalan used to also brag (fantasize?) about.

Not surprisingly the pompous Garrett/Kalan is despised and ridiculed by most everyone on the forum. Some things never change.