U.K. and U.S. Journeymen: Let's talk about 'em

[gilgamesh]

So I'm reading a book by a guy named Mark Turley.

Called Journeyman: The Other Side of the Boxing Business

In it he discusses guys like Johnny Greaves, Kristian Laight...you know. The guys with the truly awful records where they have WAY more losses than wins. I've always looked at guys with records like that and long suspected they probably don't often give a sincere effort, and the part of the book where he talks with Greaves pretty much confirms this as he mentions a few times he's had promoters tell him "Give him the 'ol move about" or whatever, not exactly fixing the fight necessarily but heavily implying that he should just go in there and survive.

More disturbing though is I found out upon reading this book that a bunch of young guys trying to get a start in the U.K. fight scene basically have to promote their own fights initially to ensure ticket sales and also basically be responsible for paying the opponent's wage, this is such a difficult process that a lot of guys who start out with intent to be serious fighters often wind up just going the "opponent" route because they can just get a paycheck every week or two and not have to worry about all the stress of ticket sales and so forth.

Pretty ass backward system, at least at the beginner level of the pro game there.

I know there are U.S. Journeymen as well, but it seems to me that matchmaking is more genuine over here and though guys are certainly matched carefully, and matched against guys they're expected to beat, I don't know that there's as many Professional "Opponents" for hire over here as there are over there.

[Stuarty]

Ive got that book here at home and read the first few chapters. I've started something else just now but will no doubt go back to it at some point.

These guys are an essential part of the sport. A few of them are far better than their record suggests as well.

[gilgamesh]

Ive got that book here at home and read the first few chapters. I've started something else just now but will no doubt go back to it at some point.

These guys are an essential part of the sport. A few of them are far better than their record suggests as well.

Yeah a lot of them have decent amateur careers prior to their pro careers.

[REEVE]

Journeymen keep the sport running the home boys (ticket sellers) need a step on the ladder in there pro career a win keeps their fans happy and them selling tickets for their next fight - a loss can be damaging for the lad selling the tickets, the journeymen need money to live so fighting regular can give u a helping hand in life - it's allowing me to save a deposit for a house to buy with my girlfriend

[KiwiRider]

Sounds like a good book, I'll see if I can get hold of a copy.
I sometimes enjoy those tough journeymen. You know - the ones with the iron jaws who stick in there and give these overhyped up and comers a real lesson.
When I first saw Khurtsidze I thought he was a journey man. He looked like one until he KO Langford and someone on this forum told me to go check out his other fights.
We tend to think of them as expendable stepping stones but of course they are people with bill to pay and families to provide for but what a way to do it.
Much respect and I often cheer them on

[dookus]

It's a good read and shines a harsh light on both the economics of boxing at the sharp end of the business and the skillset that good journeymen have to develop in order to make a living. I have spoken to one prospect (who was signed for a time to a prominent promoter here) who thoroughly hated the ticket-selling aspect of the game - a great deal of stress on top of the demands of training and holding down a job (as all but a small minority of fighters have to do).

Not sure why there aren't more similar fighters in the US (main one I can think of is Reggie Strickland). Are local commissions more apt to withhold purses for lack of effort to win in the US? Do we simply have more prospects in the UK and, therefore, more demand for journeymen? Or do we just, perhaps for cultural reasons, tolerate what is seems to be (objectively, rather than from the subjective view of the fighters themselves) an ethically questionable practice?

[gilgamesh]

It's a good read and shines a harsh light on both the economics of boxing at the sharp end of the business and the skillset that good journeymen have to develop in order to make a living.

Not sure why there aren't more similar fighters in the US (main one I can think of is Reggie Strickland). Are local commissions more apt to withhold purses for lack of effort to win? Do we simply have more prospects and, therefore, more demand for journeymen? Or do we just, perhaps for cultural reasons, tolerate what is seems to be (objectively, rather than from the subjective view of the fighters themselves) an ethically questionable practice?

There are a lot of fighters in the U.S. who would definitely be considered Journeyman, but they usually have more respectable Win-Loss records. Not sure if the Athletic commissions are more stricts on guys with multiple losses or what. I know even Reggie Strickland who is the most infamous U.S. Journeymen had to fight on a few occasions under the alias Reggie Bose. I assume because a commission was gonna suspend him.

[BitPlayer]

They often get robbed too.

They generally fight under terrible conditions. Sleeping in cars is common, and I've even heard of one having to walk across a muddy field from their changing room to the ring.

[BitPlayer]

Not sure why there aren't more similar fighters in the US (main one I can think of is Reggie Strickland). Are local commissions more apt to withhold purses for lack of effort to win in the US? Do we simply have more prospects in the UK and, therefore, more demand for journeymen? Or do we just, perhaps for cultural reasons, tolerate what is seems to be (objectively, rather than from the subjective view of the fighters themselves) an ethically questionable practice?

i've heard it's harder for jounreymen there to get licenses.

[littlepug]

Some lads just fall out of love with the game and lose their ambition but fight on just for the extra cash, when I was boxing most of the lads in my stable hated boxing as it had become a routine pain in the ass for them just like a regular job, any trace of glamour soon disappears when you enter the pro game without a big time promoter and you end up as the away guy all over the place, and if you've got other ways of making a living without getting smacked in the head you should probably walk away from the game because if your not "looked after" your on a hiding to nothing, got nothing but respect for the "working" boxers.

[Stuarty]

Some lads just fall out of love with the game and lose their ambition but fight on just for the extra cash, when I was boxing most of the lads in my stable hated boxing as it had become a routine pain in the ass for them just like a regular job, any trace of glamour soon disappears when you enter the pro game without a big time promoter and you end up as the away guy all over the place, and if you've got other ways of making a living without getting smacked in the head you should probably walk away from the game because if your not "looked after" your on a hiding to nothing, got nothing but respect for the "working" boxers.

[Stuffs]

It's one of the best I've read.

I'd also recommend getting to a few small hall shows if the book has shocked you and you've only judged on records alone.

[KiwiRider]

Thanks for the tip about the book
My library has it and I've ordered a copy to be sent to my local

[mickey1975]

I've been around it with my mate especially, and a couple of others. They can really fight. Some great amateur guys end up going that route. I've only known one guy "make it" in 30 years of boxing! Even very seasoned pros struggle. I said in another thread, it's a ticket selling contest now. I know FOR A FACT, people are being paid a few quid more just to move about, and I don't care if anyone disagrees.

[littlepug]

I've been around it with my mate especially, and a couple of others. They can really fight. Some great amateur guys end up going that route. I've only known one guy "make it" in 30 years of boxing! Even very seasoned pros struggle. I said in another thread, it's a ticket selling contest now. I know FOR A FACT, people are being paid a few quid more just to move about, and I don't care if anyone disagrees.

can believe it mickey, it can be a grubby little world can boxing with all kinds of shenanigans going on behind the scenes, all that said though I still love it ha ha

[gilgamesh]

It's one of the best I've read.

I'd also recommend getting to a few small hall shows if the book has shocked you and you've only judged on records alone.

I don't doubt that several of the fighters in the book are better equipped to defend themselves than their records suggests. Like a guy like Kristian Laight for instance. There's no way in hell you could have as many fights as he has and been stopped so few times unless you had very sharp and clever defensive skills. At least as far as defensive skills there's probably things that even top pros could learn from these guys because you gotta know probably very few other fighters have had to absorb as many hard blows and survive as many scary moments as them.

[Horse]

Why does Britain have so few international journeymen like Michael Sprott?

Is there not enough money in it?

[BitPlayer]

Why does Britain have so few international journeymen like Michael Sprott?

Is there not enough money in it?

Maybe becuase there planty of oppertunities in the UK, no need to be international.

[Mimmy]

Buck Smith was a joureyman, so Kirkland Laing thought.

http://boxrec.com/boxer/6117

203 fights, but im sure there was talk of him being a ringer or other blokes pretending to be him.

[gilgamesh]

Buck Smith was a joureyman, so Kirkland Laing thought.

http://boxrec.com/boxer/6117

203 fights, but im sure there was talk of him being a ringer or other blokes pretending to be him.

Buck Smith's record kinda reminds me of Marty Jakubowski, both have very impressive records as far as the numbers go, but most of their wins aren't over any particularly big names. They just fought all the time apparently.

[Mimmy]

Buck Smith was a joureyman, so Kirkland Laing thought.

http://boxrec.com/boxer/6117

203 fights, but im sure there was talk of him being a ringer or other blokes pretending to be him.

Buck Smith's record kinda reminds me of Marty Jakubowski, both have very impressive records as far as the numbers go, but most of their wins aren't over any particularly big names. They just fought all the time apparently.

Smith had 24 no contests, now thats a lot of fights to have no contests, 2 were against Harold Brazier 1 went the full 15 rounds and the other was over 6 but went 6 and was a n/c. Many of those debutants he fought were proberly not real fights and were never proved.

[littlepug]

Buck Smith was a joureyman, so Kirkland Laing thought.

http://boxrec.com/boxer/6117

203 fights, but im sure there was talk of him being a ringer or other blokes pretending to be him.

Buck Smith's record kinda reminds me of Marty Jakubowski, both have very impressive records as far as the numbers go, but most of their wins aren't over any particularly big names. They just fought all the time apparently.

Smith had 24 no contests, now thats a lot of fights to have no contests, 2 were against Harold Brazier 1 went the full 15 rounds and the other was over 6 but went 6 and was a n/c. Many of those debutants he fought were proberly not real fights and were never proved.

Yeah did a lot of work in the Midwest which is usually low ranking stuff, the win over Laing was a cracker though

[gilgamesh]

Buck Smith was a joureyman, so Kirkland Laing thought.

http://boxrec.com/boxer/6117

203 fights, but im sure there was talk of him being a ringer or other blokes pretending to be him.

Buck Smith's record kinda reminds me of Marty Jakubowski, both have very impressive records as far as the numbers go, but most of their wins aren't over any particularly big names. They just fought all the time apparently.

Smith had 24 no contests, now thats a lot of fights to have no contests, 2 were against Harold Brazier 1 went the full 15 rounds and the other was over 6 but went 6 and was a n/c. Many of those debutants he fought were proberly not real fights and were never proved.

I assume the reports of the results have to come from somewhere.

[Mimmy]

Buck Smith's record kinda reminds me of Marty Jakubowski, both have very impressive records as far as the numbers go, but most of their wins aren't over any particularly big names. They just fought all the time apparently.

Smith had 24 no contests, now thats a lot of fights to have no contests, 2 were against Harold Brazier 1 went the full 15 rounds and the other was over 6 but went 6 and was a n/c. Many of those debutants he fought were proberly not real fights and were never proved.

I assume the reports of the results have to come from somewhere.

of course but many people can be fictitious and can be added to a card and given to record sites. It does happen to inflate a record, its not something new. Possibly these days its a little harder to do bu tin tiny towns in South america with no tv coverage i bet there has been entirely made up bills at some time or another.

[gilgamesh]

Smith had 24 no contests, now thats a lot of fights to have no contests, 2 were against Harold Brazier 1 went the full 15 rounds and the other was over 6 but went 6 and was a n/c. Many of those debutants he fought were proberly not real fights and were never proved.

I assume the reports of the results have to come from somewhere.

of course but many people can be fictitious and can be added to a card and given to record sites. It does happen to inflate a record, its not something new. Possibly these days its a little harder to do bu tin tiny towns in South america with no tv coverage i bet there has been entirely made up bills at some time or another.

Hell some of the guys in Eastern Europe have wins where they literally just beat a guy up in a gym with no audience, and it's counted as a Professional Win.