Boxin triva/Did u know??Ketchel's kd of Jack Johnson was BS?

[Ambling Alp II]

I checked a few record books and they all have Ketchel at 5'9. Johnson usually gets listed at between 6'0 and 6 '1. He always seemed a little taller to me.

Other points to ponder:
The knockdown in the second round. Johnson seemed to be all business. Hard to be believe he was carrying Ketchel if he had him in trouble.
Also, Johnson backed way off when the referee was counting. You couldn't even see him in the picture. This was way supposedly before the nuetral corner rule. I always wondered if there was often sort of a vague rule even back then about not standing right over your opponent when he was down. If not a rule, maybe sort of a sense of fair play.

The point when Johnson seemed to hurt Ketchel and Ketchel ls seemed to be sinking and it looks like Johnson grabs him to be keep Ketchel from falling down. I watched it again and it was about in the middle of the 10th round. Does that seem to other people what was happening?

[Caractacus]

How many rounds of this fight still known to exist ?
Johnson looks a full head taller then Ketchel,so I think Ketchel was really only 5 ft 7" tall.
and can you imagine the jar from even a jab from a solid muscle fighter 50 pounds heavier ?
my guess the reason Johnson went to a neutral corner was based on instinct because he was a defensive fighter.
also Johnson really didnt get aggressive until Ketchal clocked him with a right cross in the second round before Johnson clocked him back.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Aj38GcAM8zI

[Caractacus]

as far as when these fight films were still shown in theaters back in the 1910's.
The films were usually accompianied by a professional narrator like a ring annoucer
who if didnt do the actual annoucing was present at the match to give the details to the movie audience.

[Caractacus]

According to same writer,Ketchels best punch of the fight was instead a terrific left to Johnson's jaw in the seventh round,
which caused a lump to form on his jaw almost immediately.
also another good punch by Ketchel had been a left to the body also in the seventh round.

Maybe if there was an actual "double-cross" by Ketchel in the fight he decided to do it in the 7th round to try and knock Jack Johnson out ?

[Caractacus]

For comparative purposes ,here is Stanley Ketchel fighting someone his own size (Billy Papke 5 ft 9")
in the very same ring where he would fight Jack Johnson three months later .
(Mission street arena Colma California)


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oAOHjLJGqis

[APerno]

For comparative purposes ,here is Stanley Ketchel fighting someone his own size (Billy Papke 5 ft 9")
in the very same ring where he would fight Jack Johnson three months later .
(Mission street arena Colma California)


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oAOHjLJGqis

What a sloppy mess that was - I am impressed that they had the energy/stamina to be that strong after 20 rounds - but still, way too much holding. - As always thanks for the post; good video

[APerno]

For comparative purposes ,here is Stanley Ketchel fighting someone his own size (Billy Papke 5 ft 9")
in the very same ring where he would fight Jack Johnson three months later .
(Mission street arena Colma California)


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oAOHjLJGqis

Oh! What do Corbett, McGovern and Papke have in common - 'bare cheeks' - glad that shite went away.

[Caractacus]

Yeah and it makes Pake's "Farmer's tan" more noticable too.

Papke looks to be taller then Ketchell there by a couple of inches.
BTW Does that look like Jack Johnson in Ketchel's corner at the beginning of the 20th round ?

[Caractacus]

according to some people who saw the Johnson-Ketchel fight on the"big screen" in early 1910.
The so called knock down was about as convincing as Ali vrs Liston in 1965
There appears to be frames missing from the print here,but according to viewers then who saw it on an almost pristine print still
the punch looked to have landed behind Johnson's ear on the mastoid.

[Caractacus]

I couldn't help notice that one dude seen sitting in the crowd at the Johnson-Ketchel fight looks just like Coalhouse Walker !
Remember this film from 1981 ? well,they cant make make movies like this anymore.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dTt7RL0PLbA

[Caractacus]

Jimmy Cagney's last film BTW.

[Caractacus]

I think this is more visual proof here that not even Stanley Ketchel didn't even actually believe that he had truely knocked down Jack Johnson.
Where then is the emotional re-action after having been beatin up and bloodied on for 12 rounds at 10:56 of this clip ?
The only thing he appears to do is briefly look over to his corner while adjusting his trunks.
(listen to the voice-over narration here"
Ketchel is excited !" such overly dramatic BS.
He looks like he has an expression that it may have just been a slippage to me when he looked over to his corner
and was definately not prepared for Jack Johnson to get up that way and do what he had done.
( btw there is a jump-cut at about 11:03 of this clip and looks to be a few missing frames from the film .)
probably of the actual knock-out blow landing

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Aj38GcAM8zI

[Caractacus]

I checked a few record books and they all have Ketchel at 5'9. Johnson usually gets listed at between 6'0 and 6 '1. He always seemed a little taller to me.

I had read somewhere where Stanley Ketchel was actually 5 ft 7" and three-fourths inches tall.

[Kalan]

If MSNBC reported that there was a fly on the wall, I would not believe them.

Then I suppose you believe Donald Trump and the crap that's reported on Fox News...

Especially after Trump excuses statements he made that he DOESN'T want you to believe as "locker room talk" that is "not true." I've heard fukk stories, locker room talk, stories about bar fights and street fights that did or didn't happen, and general right wing, racist, and ideological pontificating all my life.. I make it a point not to hang around intellectual low lifes any more than I have to, but unfortunately there's a lot of them in the Boxing world and now we have a president who's full of crap.

People need to be better BS detectors. If something makes sense and has the ring of truth, believe it. If something makes little sense, sounds like an excuse, sounds insincere, puts the story teller in a more favorable light, and isn’t congruent with facts that can be easily gathered, that’s something you don’t swallow.

[Kalan]

I think this is more visual proof here that not even Stanley Ketchel didn't even actually believe that he had truely knocked down Jack Johnson.
Where then is the emotional re-action after having been beatin up and bloodied on for 12 rounds at 10:56 of this clip ?
The only thing he appears to do is briefly look over to his corner while adjusting his trunks.
(listen to the voice-over narration here"
Ketchel is excited !" such overly dramatic BS.
He looks like he has an expression that it may have just been a slippage to me when he looked over to his corner
and was definately not prepared for Jack Johnson to get up that way and do what he had done.
( btw there is a jump-cut at about 11:03 of this clip and looks to be a few missing frames from the film .)
probably of the actual knock-out blow landing

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Aj38GcAM8zI

This has a good angle of Ketchel's knockdown punch... It's a big loaded right like the Willard shot -- and that's usually the punch you see in movies and stage fights between actors where sound effects are dubbed in.. Johnson looks the punch all the way in but it seems to actually connect a little bit.. A faked punch usually connects mainly off the inside of the shoulder and on the clavicle area. Johnson rolls to his left to get up -- but as Ketchel turns around he rolls to his right.. He's getting a very fast count.. This film gives a very poor view of the KO punch.. I've seen several angles.. The best film is the one where Johnson is on the right side of the screen and Ketchel attacks him from the left side of the screen and is met with a murderous right uppercut as Ketchel is in full swing. It's a picture perfect KO. You can't see it here.

[APerno]

Oh God - Ketchel KD of Johnson - I feel like I am watching another phantom punch - Johnson looks to be going down before the punch lands - is it the film; my eyes, or fake?

Johnson KO of Ketchel - was it a left upper cut - the follow-up right doesn't look to land?

[Caractacus]

I had previously accertained in this thread,that perhaps the missing film frames(s) showed an elbow to the puss before the final punch.

[Caractacus]

BTW AlPerno, Dan Streible talks about this fight in his book FIGHT PICTURES.
The knock-down was deemed 'fakey" by many in the cinema audience( on the big silver screen too) even way back in 1909.

[APerno]

Here is a round-by-round if anyone is interested.

[Kalan]

Here is a round-by-round if anyone is interested.

That round by round is worthless... Johnson DID NOT leap 10 feet across the ring like a wild animal at Ketchel to land the KO punch... Ketchel came in for the kill swinging big... Johnson set himself and drove a smashing right uppercut counter to Ketchel's jaw... a la Kermit Washington, Johnson turned the punch over and drove it.. and quickly flung 2 follow shots at the rapidly dropping head of Ketchel... as he missed one more final swing he tripped over Ketchel's prostrate form and fell to the floor.. Johnson was not happy with Ketchel when he got floored.. When he knocked Ketchel out he wasn't happy yet.. He continued swinging at the little tyke with all his strength.. I have seen fighters swing at guys on the floor. But never explode like that.

Johnson was not dazed during the count like this stupid reporter writes... The crowd was dazed... No one cheered... Mighty Casey had struck out again so there was no joy in Mudville -- since the result they were hoping for didn't happen... Notice the referee doesn't give Johnson the respect of walking over to him and raising his hand... He points at him and turns away.

[Caractacus]

are you serious ?
the referee who gave Jack Johnson "no respect" was his friend from San Francisco Jack Welsh.
who also refereed Johnson's fight with Jess Willard.
the two use to hang out together.
Notice as soon as jack Welsh points to Johnson as the winner,instanly a flash mob jumps into the ring to congradulate Jack Johnson
and also to attend Stanley Ketchel.
Maybe he showed Johnson the respect in the ring just after the film ended there when the crowd in the ring thinned some.
he could have maybe even have hugged Jack Johnson afterwards for all we know.

[Caractacus]

Here is a round-by-round if anyone is interested.

That round by round is worthless... Johnson DID NOT leap 10 feet across the ring like a wild animal at Ketchel to land the KO punch... Ketchel came in for the kill swinging big... Johnson set himself and drove a smashing right uppercut counter to Ketchel's jaw... a la Kermit Washington, Johnson turned the punch over and drove it.. and quickly flung 2 follow shots at the rapidly dropping head of Ketchel... as he missed one more final swing he tripped over Ketchel's prostrate form and fell to the floor.. Johnson was not happy with Ketchel when he got floored.. When he knocked Ketchel out he wasn't happy yet.. He continued swinging at the little tyke with all his strength.. I have seen fighters swing at guys on the floor. But never explode like that.

Johnson was not dazed during the count like this stupid reporter writes... The crowd was dazed... No one cheered... Mighty Casey had struck out again so there was no joy in Mudville -- since the result they were hoping for didn't happen... Notice the referee doesn't give Johnson the respect of walking over to him and raising his hand... He points at him and turns away.

The intersting thing about the round-by-round ringside discription how it may have may differed from the filmed footage.
The reporter could not have watched again what happened until the film was developed and shown in the cinemas and burlesque houses,
which would have been at least a week later.
the reporter no doubt wrote what he believed he saw for the newspaper copy.

[Caractacus]

I had a link to an old newspaper article where Jack Johnson gave his account of the sparring session with Gunboat Smith,
were The "Gooner" wobbled Johnson and he almost went down.
it was reported in the press from what I remember.
but for some reason Im unable to find it now

[Kalan]

JJ is not alone. Like just several days ago I was looking up early Tom Sharkey fights in HI newspapers. And I recalled him telling the story of his life that was printed in one newspaper, and how he knocked one George Washington through the window and out. Turned out Sharkey was knocked out himself, according to primary source. Or Jack Dempsey with his story of being stopped by Jim Flynn. Etc

Dempsey was never legitimately knocked out in his life. There were suspicions before the fight that Dempsey had consorted with gamblers because heavy bets were being placed on Flynn by people who don't generally bet... Known gamblers don't place bets. They hire people to place bets for them. These people can be spotted by their demeanor, which is usually very polite and businesslike, but slightly distracted and nervous.

Sometimes they'll ask a suspicious bettor. "Hmmm... That's a heavy bet Mister...do you place a lot bets?" ... "Oh, not generally. I just have a hunch on this one so I'm going with it." ... "I see...do you know Mr. Flynn by any chance?" ... "Oh no, ha ha ha...I just follow him in the newspapers. He's a good boy." ... "Un huh, and a big underdog. Here's your ticket...I'm sure I'll see you later." ... "Ha ha.. I'm hoping so too, ha ha ha."

After they see several bettors like that -- they have a good idea something untoward is going down -- and maybe get some money on Flynn.

[Sidney Carton]

If MSNBC reported that there was a fly on the wall, I would not believe them.

Then I suppose you believe Donald Trump and the crap that's reported on Fox News...

Especially after Trump excuses statements he made that he DOESN'T want you to believe as "locker room talk" that is "not true." I've heard fukk stories, locker room talk, stories about bar fights and street fights that did or didn't happen, and general right wing, racist, and ideological pontificating all my life.. I make it a point not to hang around intellectual low lifes any more than I have to, but unfortunately there's a lot of them in the Boxing world and now we have a president who's full of crap.

I thought this purported to be a boxing site, not a political opinion site.