I am sick of hearing it

KO Artist · Post by **KO Artist** » 25 Mar 2006, 13:01

The term great fighter.

Gary Shaw says Wright is the greatesr defensive fighter of the past 10 years

The Wright says him and Taylor coming togethr is a meeting of 2 great fighters.

Neither of them are great defensive or otherwise

They rae in an era that is desperate for greatness so it is bestowed on anyone

I cant think of one single fighter who could be termed great today.

Post by **The Law** » 25 Mar 2006, 13:06

I agree with Shaw that Winky is one of the greatest defensive fighters in the last 10 years. Watch his defence in all his recent fights, he has improved immensely. His long arms help him protect his head and body at the same time

I would go as far as saying he is among the greatest defensive fighters of all time. That doesn't make him a boxing great/legend but it merely means his defence is great

mattyp151 · Post by **mattyp151** » 25 Mar 2006, 13:12

KO Artist wrote:The term great fighter.

Gary Shaw says Wright is the greatesr defensive fighter of the past 10 years

The Wright says him and Taylor coming togethr is a meeting of 2 great fighters.

Neither of them are great defensive or otherwise

They rae in an era that is desperate for greatness so it is bestowed on anyone

I cant think of one single fighter who could be termed great today.

Winky is a great defensive fighter, but he looked horrendous against Soliman. Taylor is still looking for a big time win on a big time stage, seeing as he eked out two over Hopkins.

However, to say these aren't two of the best out there today is a bit crazy.

If these two aren't two of the greatest fighters in the game today...gimme some names of people who are.

jamesmcdonnell · Post by **jamesmcdonnell** » 25 Mar 2006, 13:19

Winky is overrated in my opinion, who the fornicate has a he beaten? Mosley who was a blown up lightweight, Trinidad, who was back after a long retirement and who fought a shit fight?

Wright is a very good fighter, but great he is not.

pasty_spud · Post by **pasty_spud** » 25 Mar 2006, 13:26

but aren't ALL american champions "great"

i mean look at jeff lacy

jamesmcdonnell · Post by **jamesmcdonnell** » 25 Mar 2006, 13:33

that's different, Lacy is a combination of Tyson and Holyfield.

mattyp151 · Post by **mattyp151** » 25 Mar 2006, 13:38

pasty_spud wrote:but aren't ALL american champions "great"

i mean look at jeff lacy

and watch what happens here...

Who has Calzaghe fought that makes him such a great champ?

Cannibal · Post by **Cannibal** » 25 Mar 2006, 14:07

Mattyp151 wrote:
pasty_spud wrote:but aren't ALL american champions "great"

i mean look at jeff lacy
and watch what happens here...

Who has Calzaghe fought that makes him such a great champ?

Eubank, a prime Reid, Byron Mitchell and Jeff Lacy are the best on his record I think. Better record than anyone at Super Middle anyway.

stujones · Post by **stujones** » 25 Mar 2006, 15:25

Way too early to call Taylor a great...

But Wright is (IMO), certainly defensively. Those long arms cover his nearly his whole body and he is brilliant at parrying.

He might not be a Floyd Mayweather - but old school guard, I cannot think of much better. Its even better than Steve Robinson's who was renowned for his guard.

Phenomenal-Nutrition · Post by **Phenomenal-Nutrition** » 25 Mar 2006, 17:31

Wright isn't great defensively, he doesn't slip or move out the way he just covers up and blocks, a good offense would humble his defense. FFS even Soliman humbled his defense, watch what Taylor will do to him

And neither are great

Greats of our era imo RJJ, PBF, Hamed, Barrera, Morales, Lennox, Holy, Tyson, ODLH, Trinidad, Hopkins, Toney - Calazage could join them

Autobarn · Post by **Autobarn** » 25 Mar 2006, 17:38

I remember when mid career Mike McCallum whipped one of the B class guys he had to fight when no one else would fight him. Might have been Firmin Chirinos. After landing around 70 punches a round & winning easily, he says, "Ohh, he's a great...champion".

stujones · Post by **stujones** » 25 Mar 2006, 17:38

Don't think Hamed belongs in that company.

Kostya / Pacquiao / Mosley probably deserve the call great above Hamed.

Mark Too Sharp Johnson, Resondo Alvarez and Ricardo Lopez especially are greats.

Autobarn · Post by **Autobarn** » 25 Mar 2006, 17:52

I think Calzaghe can certainly add a couple more top fighters to his ledger and be called a great.

I wouldn't say Wright just yet. If he wins the middleweight title off Taylor and beats some top middles like Sturm, Abraham & Miranda he probably qualifies.

I know I'll get stick for this, but I just don't think DLH was great. He was disappointing in too many big fights. Nor was Mosley. I don't particularly like Michael Carbajal's induction, either, or Zaragoza's (was he ever even considered #1 at s/bantam? No)

As for the recent greats/HOF worthies (say, past ten years onward), I'd say Hopkins, Toney, Lewis, R Lopez, Tim Austin, Tszyu, Barrera, Morales, Pacquiao, Mayweather, Jones, Hill, maybe Juan Carlos Gomez & if he gets a couple more big wins, JL Castillo

Men who I think can carve out HOF careers - Hatton, Adamek, Kessler

KO Artist · Post by **KO Artist** » 25 Mar 2006, 18:29

Mattyp151 wrote:
KO Artist wrote:The term great fighter.

Gary Shaw says Wright is the greatesr defensive fighter of the past 10 years

The Wright says him and Taylor coming togethr is a meeting of 2 great fighters.

Neither of them are great defensive or otherwise

They rae in an era that is desperate for greatness so it is bestowed on anyone

I cant think of one single fighter who could be termed great today.
Winky is a great defensive fighter, but he looked horrendous against Soliman. Taylor is still looking for a big time win on a big time stage, seeing as he eked out two over Hopkins.

However, to say these aren't two of the best out there today is a bit crazy.

If these two aren't two of the greatest fighters in the game today...gimme some names of people who are.

They might be the best at 160lbs but it dont mean they are great. Wright is well overrated IMO

stujones · Post by **stujones** » 25 Mar 2006, 18:50

Not sure how you can discount DLH and Moseley and then include Tim Austin and especially Juan Carlos Gomez.

Tim Austin's was an incredible fighter to watch, but lacked the opponents - when one of pedigree came along - he got KO'd. DLH might have "dissapointed" in the Super Fights, but he won a fair share of them. Austin never.

Austin never even partially unified the title, and never took on a fellow champion around his weight class. He could have had Morales, Barrera, Tapia, Ayalia, Johnson - but no - the best fighter he faced was Adan Vargas.

DLH might have dissapointed in Super Fighters, but was hardly embarresed - he beat Vargas (Light Middleweight champion), Quartey (reigning Light Welterweight champion), Whittikar (Light welterweight champion), Chavez (number #1 Lightweight at the time and champion). He absolutely smashed Rafael Reulas (in the Lightweight unification) and Genero Hernandez (reigning world champion when they faced).

He lost controvesially to Trinidad and Mosley (in rematch) and even match one was very very close - lot of ringside people had it level going into the last round.

Okay he lost desively to Hopkins and some might say to Sturm - but that was way above his station. I thought he did well vs Hopkins actually - how many people have been leading on the score cards vs BHop at the halfway stage of a contest.

If he beats Mayorga, after the absence then that could be a career best victory.

What more do you want out of a great fighter? And what has Tim Austin, and Juan Carlos Gomez done to warrant being considered "greater".

As for Mosley - I can see what your saying, he was unfortunately a Welterweight champion when the biggest names (DLH, Whittikar, Trinidad, Quartey) moved up. Ultimately, there was only Vernon left - and we all know what happend there.

In his defense though, he was absolutely fantastic in his relatively short prime and was considered the #1 fighter in three weight devisions... and did demolish some good competition (particularly as a Lightweight).

Agree with the fighters you mentioned - although its a definate no to Gomez and a probable no to Austin for me (excellent though he was).

I might get some stick for this, but if Gatti beats Baldomir then perhaps he might be worth a mention. He'll be a three weight world champion and has some decent fighters on his resume. He would have beaten the #1 Welterweight champion and was himself considered the #1 Super Featherweight after the Gabe Reulas win.

I think Medina is pretty close also, winning the IBF title would be the icing (especially if he beats Barrera, although I doubt he will do that).

Castillo is probably just one or two wins away - will depend on the opponent, if he fights and beats say a Hatton then he is in.

KO Artist · Post by **KO Artist** » 25 Mar 2006, 19:09

stujones wrote:Not sure how you can discount DLH and Moseley and then include Tim Austin and especially Juan Carlos Gomez.

Tim Austin's was an incredible fighter to watch, but lacked the opponents - when one of pedigree came along - he got KO'd. DLH might have "dissapointed" in the Super Fights, but he won a fair share of them. Austin never.

Austin never even partially unified the title, and never took on a fellow champion around his weight class. He could have had Morales, Barrera, Tapia, Ayalia, Johnson - but no - the best fighter he faced was Adan Vargas.

DLH might have dissapointed in Super Fighters, but was hardly embarresed - he beat Vargas (Light Middleweight champion), Quartey (reigning Light Welterweight champion), Whittikar (Light welterweight champion), Chavez (number #1 Lightweight at the time and champion). He absolutely smashed Rafael Reulas (in the Lightweight unification) and Genero Hernandez (reigning world champion when they faced).

He lost controvesially to Trinidad and Mosley (in rematch) and even match one was very very close - lot of ringside people had it level going into the last round.

Okay he lost desively to Hopkins and some might say to Sturm - but that was way above his station. I thought he did well vs Hopkins actually - how many people have been leading on the score cards vs BHop at the halfway stage of a contest.

If he beats Mayorga, after the absence then that could be a career best victory.

What more do you want out of a great fighter? And what has Tim Austin, and Juan Carlos Gomez done to warrant being considered "greater".

As for Mosley - I can see what your saying, he was unfortunately a Welterweight champion when the biggest names (DLH, Whittikar, Trinidad, Quartey) moved up. Ultimately, there was only Vernon left - and we all know what happend there.

In his defense though, he was absolutely fantastic in his relatively short prime and was considered the #1 fighter in three weight devisions... and did demolish some good competition (particularly as a Lightweight).

Agree with the fighters you mentioned - although its a definate no to Gomez and a probable no to Austin for me (excellent though he was).

I might get some stick for this, but if Gatti beats Baldomir then perhaps he might be worth a mention. He'll be a three weight world champion and has some decent fighters on his resume. He would have beaten the #1 Welterweight champion and was himself considered the #1 Super Featherweight after the Gabe Reulas win.

I think Medina is pretty close also, winning the IBF title would be the icing (especially if he beats Barrera, although I doubt he will do that).

Castillo is probably just one or two wins away - will depend on the opponent, if he fights and beats say a Hatton then he is in.

DLH beating Mayorga is nothing great. Mayorga is very poor.

You seem to be confusing Hype and publicity with greatness

Someone like Tony Sibson or John Mugabi would have beat the shit out of Mayorga at 154 or 158, but your not raving about them

We should dig a bit deeper.

IMO The only great fighters (not top 10 p4p) active today are

I'm assuming Zoo is retired.

Barrera
Toney
Morales
Jones
Hopkins
Kelley
Hill
Manny
Calzaghe
Floyd

and apart from Manny, Joe and Floyd they are all past their best

tonyevs · Post by **tonyevs** » 25 Mar 2006, 19:46

Phenomenal-Nutrition wrote: Greats of our era imo RJJ, PBF, Hamed, Barrera, Morales, Lennox, Holy, Tyson, ODLH, Trinidad, Hopkins, Toney - Calazage could join them

Only these deserve to be called great, and maybe Morales

stujones · Post by **stujones** » 25 Mar 2006, 19:50

Please explain how you can include - Hill, Calzaghe and Kelley and not DLH.

Mayorga might be "shit" but Tony Sibson never unified the world title, infact never won a world title.

Okay, I'll even give you that one - as DLH's greatness is secured long before this fight anyway.

But please explain what is so shit about beating Whittikar, Quartey, Chavez, Reulas, Hernandez, Gatti, Vargas, Molina, Leija etc.

Please tell me who Hill, Calzaghe and Kelley have beaten of that calibre.

Kelley's win over Vargas was a bit special granted, but Vargas never achieved the heights after did he and never did enough to achieve greatness.

Although I do admit, I was tempted to mention Kelley, but not at the expense at DLH FFS.

The Hill debate was mentioned before, I was pro labelling him a great - but greater than DLH..... No chance, Hill has Henry Maske as a great win and really that is it.

Joe Calzaghe? No not yet - not even close yet. Sven Ottke is probably considered greater. Who has Joe beaten again? Jeff Lacy? Is he much better than Mayorga? A weight drained Eubank? Brewer, Reid, Woodhall - good fighter - but hardly in the class of Whittikar, Quartey etc.

Yes, you can argue that Whittikar and Chavez were shot - but Whittikar was still considered top 3 P4P at the time and Chavez was #1 Lightweight when they met - Eubank had already been beaten before fight Calzaghe, has had Woodhall, Reid, Brewer, Mitchell etc.

Post by **The Law** » 25 Mar 2006, 21:14

tonyevs wrote:
Phenomenal-Nutrition wrote: Greats of our era imo RJJ, PBF, Hamed, Barrera, Morales, Lennox, Holy, Tyson, ODLH, Trinidad, Hopkins, Toney - Calazage could join them
Only these deserve to be called great, and maybe Morales

Lennox definitely deserves to be in that mix.

Old bones Ian · Post by **Old bones Ian** » 26 Mar 2006, 01:16

'Great' is a term thrown about far to much.

I don't really know what qualifys a person to be called great, is it 1 fight that they win against the odds, or a long title reign, maybe just being involved in some tremendous fights win or lose qualifys you.

Jabba The Nut · Post by **Jabba The Nut** » 26 Mar 2006, 03:13

Willie Pep
Sugar Ray Robinson
Salvador Sanchez
Wilfredo Gomez
Rocky Marciano
Archie Moore
Muhammed Ali
Alexis Arguello

These are GREAT fighters!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Forget todays crap! Calzaghe..............dont make me laugh

Autobarn · Post by **Autobarn** » 26 Mar 2006, 03:28

stujones wrote:Not sure how you can discount DLH and Moseley and then include Tim Austin and especially Juan Carlos Gomez.

Tim Austin's was an incredible fighter to watch, but lacked the opponents - when one of pedigree came along - he got KO'd. DLH might have "dissapointed" in the Super Fights, but he won a fair share of them. Austin never.

Austin never even partially unified the title, and never took on a fellow champion around his weight class. He could have had Morales, Barrera, Tapia, Ayalia, Johnson - but no - the best fighter he faced was Adan Vargas.

DLH might have dissapointed in Super Fighters, but was hardly embarresed - he beat Vargas (Light Middleweight champion), Quartey (reigning Light Welterweight champion), Whittikar (Light welterweight champion), Chavez (number #1 Lightweight at the time and champion). He absolutely smashed Rafael Reulas (in the Lightweight unification) and Genero Hernandez (reigning world champion when they faced).

He lost controvesially to Trinidad and Mosley (in rematch) and even match one was very very close - lot of ringside people had it level going into the last round.

Okay he lost desively to Hopkins and some might say to Sturm - but that was way above his station. I thought he did well vs Hopkins actually - how many people have been leading on the score cards vs BHop at the halfway stage of a contest.

If he beats Mayorga, after the absence then that could be a career best victory.

What more do you want out of a great fighter? And what has Tim Austin, and Juan Carlos Gomez done to warrant being considered "greater".

As for Mosley - I can see what your saying, he was unfortunately a Welterweight champion when the biggest names (DLH, Whittikar, Trinidad, Quartey) moved up. Ultimately, there was only Vernon left - and we all know what happend there.

In his defense though, he was absolutely fantastic in his relatively short prime and was considered the #1 fighter in three weight devisions... and did demolish some good competition (particularly as a Lightweight).

Agree with the fighters you mentioned - although its a definate no to Gomez and a probable no to Austin for me (excellent though he was).

I might get some stick for this, but if Gatti beats Baldomir then perhaps he might be worth a mention. He'll be a three weight world champion and has some decent fighters on his resume. He would have beaten the #1 Welterweight champion and was himself considered the #1 Super Featherweight after the Gabe Reulas win.

I think Medina is pretty close also, winning the IBF title would be the icing (especially if he beats Barrera, although I doubt he will do that).

Castillo is probably just one or two wins away - will depend on the opponent, if he fights and beats say a Hatton then he is in.

i threw in austin and gomez cos i was bored and cos they're underrated.

i do think gomez was a better cruiser than holyfield, who gets too much credit for beating a round alcoholic light heavyweight and some of the least inspiring titlists of all time. of course, JCG's heavyweight record is a horrible stain. but i haven't seen a cruiser who had the total package like Gomez did - speed, power, skill, smoothness. it's no surprise Toney didn't take the fight when he was a leading WBC contender, as Toney could no way cope with that speed and reach. Also, I think JCG would've spanked Johnny Nelson, Fabrice Tiozzo, and Jirov.

why does no one ever have a good look at Hill's record? especially his mid career one, in which he beat European standouts Tiozzo and Maske on their home soil, handled future cruiser champ Adolpho Washington, whipped former middle champ Frank Tate (twice), not to mention his longevity and earlier big name wins over hard cases Leslie Stewart, James Kinchen, Bobby Czyz.

they shouldn't let medina anywhere near the hall. gatti would be a blasphemy. they weren't great nor were they outstanding.

de la hoya could never have touched super feather and lightweight were it not for piling on all that weight after the weigh in, to buy a huge advantage. Its a disgusting advantage to get over much smaller guys. My other gripe about him is, although he took lots of big fights, he seldom took a fight unless he'd seen the other guy lose, draw or look ordinary (Whitaker, Quartey, Mosley), he thought Hopkins was too old to hurt him, and there's more. When he really had the chance to prove he was great, like the last few rds of the Mosley I fight, he just didn't seem to want it enough. Against Tito, he should've been thrown out for those last few rds. All that good boxing lef thim with no energy and he ran like a slag with her arse on fire

KO Artist · Post by **KO Artist** » 26 Mar 2006, 07:08

stujones wrote:Please explain how you can include - Hill, Calzaghe and Kelley and not DLH.

Mayorga might be "shit" but Tony Sibson never unified the world title, infact never won a world title.

Okay, I'll even give you that one - as DLH's greatness is secured long before this fight anyway.

But please explain what is so shit about beating Whittikar, Quartey, Chavez, Reulas, Hernandez, Gatti, Vargas, Molina, Leija etc.

Please tell me who Hill, Calzaghe and Kelley have beaten of that calibre.

Kelley's win over Vargas was a bit special granted, but Vargas never achieved the heights after did he and never did enough to achieve greatness.

Although I do admit, I was tempted to mention Kelley, but not at the expense at DLH FFS.

The Hill debate was mentioned before, I was pro labelling him a great - but greater than DLH..... No chance, Hill has Henry Maske as a great win and really that is it.

Joe Calzaghe? No not yet - not even close yet. Sven Ottke is probably considered greater. Who has Joe beaten again? Jeff Lacy? Is he much better than Mayorga? A weight drained Eubank? Brewer, Reid, Woodhall - good fighter - but hardly in the class of Whittikar, Quartey etc.

Yes, you can argue that Whittikar and Chavez were shot - but Whittikar was still considered top 3 P4P at the time and Chavez was #1 Lightweight when they met - Eubank had already been beaten before fight Calzaghe, has had Woodhall, Reid, Brewer, Mitchell etc.

The fact that Mayorga has won some alphabet soup title means noting at all.

If you scrutinize DLH record he was OK beating Old men and midgets. As soon as he fought someone as big as him he struggled. OK he beat Vargas. But Vargas is nothing to write home about.

DLH is overrated. He's very good, but overrated nonetheless.

amc · Post by **amc** » 26 Mar 2006, 07:35

I read someone describing Tarver as a great fighter the other day, and how he will get into the Hall of fame. He is not a great fighter, but sadly he will probably end up in the hall of fame.

These days all it takes is one or two high profile wins to be labeled "great".

mattyp151 · Post by **mattyp151** » 26 Mar 2006, 08:43

lawllb wrote:
tonyevs wrote:
Phenomenal-Nutrition wrote: Greats of our era imo RJJ, PBF, Hamed, Barrera, Morales, Lennox, Holy, Tyson, ODLH, Trinidad, Hopkins, Toney - Calazage could join them
Only these deserve to be called great, and maybe Morales
Lennox definitely deserves to be in that mix.

RJJ was talented, but he was protected more than anyone on that list save Hamed. Calzaghe has no chance to join them unless he cleans his division out. Took him 8 years to finally unify, and people are proclaiming him one of the best boxers of all time...

I am sick of hearing it

I am sick of hearing it

Re: I am sick of hearing it

Re: I am sick of hearing it