Prime James J. Jeffries Vs. Jack Johnson

[BitPlayer]

Sam Mcvea - Had taken out Denver Ed Martin as a "teenager".

Who is Denver Ed Martin and why should I care?

Burns - Had beaten plenty of heavyweights and was the champion. As I recall Johnson didn't struggle with him.

So how come this doesn't apply to Jeffries beating FItz?
Fitz of course had beaten
Tom Sharkey
Peter Maher
Gus Ruhlin
James J. Corbett

Jeanette - Had beaten plenty of heavyweights and stopped Sam Langford.

Langford was tiny at the time, no bigger than a light middleweight. What heavyweights of note did Langford beat at that size? What fighters of note had he beaten around that times?

Frank Moran was a top contender. Losses to Gunboat Smith, Luther McCarty, and Jess Willard aren't anything wrong. Those guys were top contenders and a champ. Absolutely nothing wrong with beating Frank Moran.

If that's how low you're setting the bar, I guess we can add the following "top" wins for Jeffries
Gus Ruhlin
Joe Kennedy
Jack Munroe

James J Jeffries - Not a win that means much other than how Jeffries was unable to cut off the ring.

He was years out of practice 35 and out of shape, of course he looked awful.

Langford - Atg who had previously beat Gans. Goes on to become one of the greatest heavyweights of all time.

What had he done against heavyweights while weighing as little as a light middleweight?

You're looking at what they did at that time only and not at what they went on to do in their entire career and shortly after fights with Johnson.

Well show me some example of *shortly* after. Not years after, often with 20lbs of weight gain and reaching physcial maturity. *Shortly* after.

[Ezzard]

I believe best for best Johnson wins a much more entertaining bout. But I respect the opinions of people who think Jeff could have taken it.

[Mr.DW]

Sam Mcvea - Had taken out Denver Ed Martin as a "teenager".

Who is Denver Ed Martin and why should I care?

Burns - Had beaten plenty of heavyweights and was the champion. As I recall Johnson didn't struggle with him.

So how come this doesn't apply to Jeffries beating FItz?
Fitz of course had beaten
Tom Sharkey
Peter Maher
Gus Ruhlin
James J. Corbett

Jeanette - Had beaten plenty of heavyweights and stopped Sam Langford.

Langford was tiny at the time, no bigger than a light middleweight. What heavyweights of note did Langford beat at that size? What fighters of note had he beaten around that times?

Frank Moran was a top contender. Losses to Gunboat Smith, Luther McCarty, and Jess Willard aren't anything wrong. Those guys were top contenders and a champ. Absolutely nothing wrong with beating Frank Moran.

If that's how low you're setting the bar, I guess we can add the following "top" wins for Jeffries
Gus Ruhlin
Joe Kennedy
Jack Munroe

James J Jeffries - Not a win that means much other than how Jeffries was unable to cut off the ring.

He was years out of practice 35 and out of shape, of course he looked awful.

Langford - Atg who had previously beat Gans. Goes on to become one of the greatest heavyweights of all time.

What had he done against heavyweights while weighing as little as a light middleweight?

You're looking at what they did at that time only and not at what they went on to do in their entire career and shortly after fights with Johnson.

Well show me some example of *shortly* after. Not years after, often with 20lbs of weight gain and reaching physcial maturity. *Shortly* after.

The difference is Jeffries struggled to death with the best he faced (who were almost 40) whereas Johnson utterly dominated the guys he fought.

[BitPlayer]

The difference is Jeffries struggled to death with the best he faced (who were almost 40) whereas Johnson utterly dominated the guys he fought.

That only applies to FItz, who was one of those fighters that aged well. Two years before he had wins over Ed Dunkhorst, Gus Ruhlin, and Tom Sharkey (all by early KO), and he'd go onto win the Light Heavyweight title over a year later.

Of course while age matter a lot when it's Jeffries. It's irrelevant when Johnson is beating a teenager.

Just like how the weight of the opponent only matters when it's Jeffries.

[Mr.DW]

The difference is Jeffries struggled to death with the best he faced (who were almost 40) whereas Johnson utterly dominated the guys he fought.

That only applies to FItz, who was one of those fighters that aged well. Two years before he had wins over Ed Dunkhorst, Gus Ruhlin, and Tom Sharkey (all by early KO), and he'd go onto win the Light Heavyweight title over a year later.

Of course while age matter a lot when it's Jeffries. It's irrelevant when Johnson is beating a teenager.

Just like how the weight of the opponent only matters when it's Jeffries.

It also applies to Corbett who was dominating Jeffries. Matter of fact contemporary accounts thought a younger Corbett would have knocked Jeffries out.

Why would age matter when it comes to Jeffries but not to when fighting a teenager? You have strange logic.

Why does weight of the opponent only matter when its Jeffries? You have strange logic.

[BitPlayer]

The difference is Jeffries struggled to death with the best he faced (who were almost 40) whereas Johnson utterly dominated the guys he fought.

That only applies to FItz, who was one of those fighters that aged well. Two years before he had wins over Ed Dunkhorst, Gus Ruhlin, and Tom Sharkey (all by early KO), and he'd go onto win the Light Heavyweight title over a year later.

Of course while age matter a lot when it's Jeffries. It's irrelevant when Johnson is beating a teenager.

Just like how the weight of the opponent only matters when it's Jeffries.

It also applies to Corbett who was dominating Jeffries. Matter of fact contemporary accounts thought a younger Corbett would have knocked Jeffries out.

Why would age matter when it comes to Jeffries but not to when fighting a teenager? You have strange logic.

Why does weight of the opponent only matter when its Jeffries? You have strange logic.

Welcome to Mr.DW land where 33 is nearly 40 and sarcasm doesn't exist.

[Mr.DW]

That only applies to FItz, who was one of those fighters that aged well. Two years before he had wins over Ed Dunkhorst, Gus Ruhlin, and Tom Sharkey (all by early KO), and he'd go onto win the Light Heavyweight title over a year later.

Of course while age matter a lot when it's Jeffries. It's irrelevant when Johnson is beating a teenager.

Just like how the weight of the opponent only matters when it's Jeffries.

It also applies to Corbett who was dominating Jeffries. Matter of fact contemporary accounts thought a younger Corbett would have knocked Jeffries out.

Why would age matter when it comes to Jeffries but not to when fighting a teenager? You have strange logic.

Why does weight of the opponent only matter when its Jeffries? You have strange logic.

Welcome to Mr.DW land where 33 is nearly 40 and sarcasm doesn't exist.

Fitz was 39 years old when Jeffries had his problems with him.

Sarcasm isn't conveyed through text unless noted.

[cfang]

Johnson beats Jeffries every time. He was a cut above and really the next generation along as a boxer.

[pound per pound]

A good what if, as the 1910 fight means zero for the outcome

Johnson's career was very uneven. He obviously had great ability, but yet he was KO'd by Choynski and Klondike, and lost to medium level contenders such as Griffin and Hart.

Uneven as a champion as well while avoiding the best out there.

By contrast, Jeffries was quickly moved in his career and needs no such excuses for losing. Jeff has top power, stamina, and chin, with solid boxing skills.

I'd lean with Jeffries via KO/TKO in the mid rounds, which for a 20-25 round match means round 12-13.

[pound per pound]

The difference is Jeffries struggled to death with the best he faced (who were almost 40) whereas Johnson utterly dominated the guys he fought.

That only applies to FItz, who was one of those fighters that aged well. Two years before he had wins over Ed Dunkhorst, Gus Ruhlin, and Tom Sharkey (all by early KO), and he'd go onto win the Light Heavyweight title over a year later.

Of course while age matter a lot when it's Jeffries. It's irrelevant when Johnson is beating a teenager.

Just like how the weight of the opponent only matters when it's Jeffries.

It also applies to Corbett who was dominating Jeffries. Matter of fact contemporary accounts thought a younger Corbett would have knocked Jeffries out.

Why would age matter when it comes to Jeffries but not to when fighting a teenager? You have strange logic.

Why does weight of the opponent only matter when its Jeffries? You have strange logic.

Who says that, Corbett? I suggest you buy in the Ring with Jim Jeffries. The author is rather good, and use prior to the KO it was about even on the cards if one were to use primary press sources at the fight.

Corbett was in shape for the first match and did well, however he did not have the power to hurt Jeffries.

[APerno]

That only applies to FItz, who was one of those fighters that aged well. Two years before he had wins over Ed Dunkhorst, Gus Ruhlin, and Tom Sharkey (all by early KO), and he'd go onto win the Light Heavyweight title over a year later.

Of course while age matter a lot when it's Jeffries. It's irrelevant when Johnson is beating a teenager.

Just like how the weight of the opponent only matters when it's Jeffries.

It also applies to Corbett who was dominating Jeffries. Matter of fact contemporary accounts thought a younger Corbett would have knocked Jeffries out.

Why would age matter when it comes to Jeffries but not to when fighting a teenager? You have strange logic.

Why does weight of the opponent only matter when its Jeffries? You have strange logic.

Who says that, Corbett? I suggest you buy in the Ring with Jim Jeffries. The author is rather good, and use prior to the KO it was about even on the cards if one were to use primary press sources at the fight.

Corbett was in shape for the first match and did well, however he did not have the power to hurt Jeffries.

For what it is worth: Over the years I have read what Mister DW stated - observers claimed Corbett (first fight) made Jefferies, from time to time, look like an amateur - that is until Jeff caught up to him - most had Corbett way ahead in the fight. (Although I never quite understood those statements; I am not sure that a decision win was even on the table.)

Does anyone know if the Corbett-Jeffries fight was 'to the finish' (45 rounds to a NC) or would there have been a decision?

Easy Trivia: When was the first time the HW title changed hands via a decision? (No fair looking it up, ya got to think it out.)

[Mr.DW]

That only applies to FItz, who was one of those fighters that aged well. Two years before he had wins over Ed Dunkhorst, Gus Ruhlin, and Tom Sharkey (all by early KO), and he'd go onto win the Light Heavyweight title over a year later.

Of course while age matter a lot when it's Jeffries. It's irrelevant when Johnson is beating a teenager.

Just like how the weight of the opponent only matters when it's Jeffries.

It also applies to Corbett who was dominating Jeffries. Matter of fact contemporary accounts thought a younger Corbett would have knocked Jeffries out.

Why would age matter when it comes to Jeffries but not to when fighting a teenager? You have strange logic.

Why does weight of the opponent only matter when its Jeffries? You have strange logic.

Who says that, Corbett? I suggest you buy in the Ring with Jim Jeffries. The author is rather good, and use prior to the KO it was about even on the cards if one were to use primary press sources at the fight.

Corbett was in shape for the first match and did well, however he did not have the power to hurt Jeffries.

I'm not going to spend money on buying books that are most likely biased and probably entertaining. Of the boxing books I have read online only one was worth buying a physical copy and that was Dempsey's autobiography which the shipping and handling cost more than the actual book.


The Atlanta Constitution reported the following:
Corbett emerged from a year's retirement from the ring rejuvenated and fresh. He was as fast and clever as back in the days when people marveled at his skill. His footwork was wonderful and his defense perfect. He outboxed his man at both long and short range, and if he had the strength necessary he would have gained an early victory. A hundred times he ducked the punch that knocked him out. At times he made the massive Jim look like a beginner in the art of offense and defense with his hands. It was a clean knockout that came so quickly that it dazed the thousands of keen spectators, and left them in doubt as to just how the winning blow was delivered. It was avowed that it was a left hand jolt to the jaw but Jeffries himself and Referee Charley White, who stood at his side, say it was a right hand swing.

The Durango Democrat reported the following:
The finishing blow came suddenly and was a startling surprise. Corbett had been making a wonderful battle. His defense was absolutely perfect, and while he was lacking in strength, he had more than held his own and stood an excellent chance of winning the fight had it gone the limit. He had not been badly punished and had managed to mark his man severely. The winning punch was a short left to the jaw. Corbett dropped like weight and was clear out. Jeffries showed his ability to take punishment at any distance and hard. He was clearly outboxed and at times was made to look like a novice. The crowd, which numbered fully eight thousand, was with Corbett and his defeat fell upon a silent crowd. There were cheers for him when he revived and left the ring, and he was generally given more consideration than the victor. Corbett is still a factor in pugilistic fame. He has regained much of his old time form. The battle was clean and it is doubtful if there was a single infraction of the rules.
Newspaper Articles[edit]

The Daily True American, NY Times, and The Reading Eagle all provide accounts of the fight and none of them have it as close in the slightest.
https://news.google.com/newspapers?id=t ... rite&hl=en
http://query.nytimes.com/mem/archive-fr ... 946197D6CF
https://news.google.com/newspapers?nid= ... 8133&hl=en

Corbett said himself that he would have wont he title if he just went the distance.
http://chroniclingamerica.loc.gov/lccn/ ... -1/seq-10/

So with all of these newspaper accounts its going to be very hard for you to come up with a plausible counterargument that proves your claim that the fight was close. The only thing I can see that would nullify all of this evidence is if you came up with a complex conspiracy between all of the writers for each newspaper all across the country to discredit Jeffries.

[Mr.DW]

It also applies to Corbett who was dominating Jeffries. Matter of fact contemporary accounts thought a younger Corbett would have knocked Jeffries out.

Why would age matter when it comes to Jeffries but not to when fighting a teenager? You have strange logic.

Why does weight of the opponent only matter when its Jeffries? You have strange logic.

Who says that, Corbett? I suggest you buy in the Ring with Jim Jeffries. The author is rather good, and use prior to the KO it was about even on the cards if one were to use primary press sources at the fight.

Corbett was in shape for the first match and did well, however he did not have the power to hurt Jeffries.

For what it is worth: Over the years I have read what Mister DW stated - observers claimed Corbett (first fight) made Jefferies, from time to time, look like an amateur - that is until Jeff caught up to him - most had Corbett way ahead in the fight. (Although I never quite understood those statements; I am not sure that a decision win was even on the table.)

Does anyone know if the Corbett-Jeffries fight was 'to the finish' (45 rounds to a NC) or would there have been a decision?

Easy Trivia: When was the first time the HW title changed hands via a decision? (No fair looking it up, ya got to think it out.)

According to Corbett it would have gone to a decision.

Easy Trivia: Was it Dempsey-Tunney 1?

[BroughtonRulesRefuge]

- Off hand, extensive previous research makes me conclude this topic much like the Foreman vs Holmes thread where Holmes the same age as Foreman and nowhere near his accomplishment where their careers overlapped.

Jeff has hugely better results against common opposition to Johnson who wasn't relevant when Jeff was active. Only on these forums could the logic impaired ever think Holmes and Johnson superior prime to prime when they were but the sucking sounds of the replacements of Giants Jeff and George.

Might make a better case suing your parents for negligence in not providing you with a proper intellect to understand the relevant database at your disposal.

[Mr.DW]

Jeff has hugely better results against common opposition to Johnson who wasn't relevant when Jeff was active.

Jack Monroe - Jeffries did better
Fitzsimmons - Johnson did better
Joe Kennedy - Both knocked him out. Only a fool would think that just because it took Johnson 4 rds instead of 2 that he was inferior to Jeffries. Especially when Jeffries has a come forward, pressure, big punching style and Johnson has an outside counter punching style.

Hank Griffin - Johnson was a novice at this point and Jeffries was a world champ. Not comparable.
Mexican Pete Everett - Again, Johnson was a novice at this point. Everett had a win over Tom Sharkey on his resume.
Joe Choynski - Johnson may have been tricked here. Fights ending in knockout were illegal so Johnson may have been under the impression that it was an exhibition. Apparently Choynski had done that kind of thing before to Bob Fitzsimmons among many opponents. Jeffries drew with Choynski.

It is obvious that Jeffries excelled quickly. My argument isn't whether Jeffries was a great fighter, its whether or not he beats Johnson. Its blatantly obvious that Jeffries was the best of his own era.

[BitPlayer]

Jeff has hugely better results against common opposition to Johnson who wasn't relevant when Jeff was active.

Jack Monroe - Jeffries did better
Fitzsimmons - Johnson did better
Joe Kennedy - Both knocked him out. Only a fool would think that just because it took Johnson 4 rds instead of 2 that he was inferior to Jeffries. Especially when Jeffries has a come forward, pressure, big punching style and Johnson has an outside counter punching style.

Hank Griffin - Johnson was a novice at this point and Jeffries was a world champ. Not comparable.
Mexican Pete Everett - Again, Johnson was a novice at this point. Everett had a win over Tom Sharkey on his resume.
Joe Choynski - Johnson may have been tricked here. Fights ending in knockout were illegal so Johnson may have been under the impression that it was an exhibition. Apparently Choynski had done that kind of thing before to Bob Fitzsimmons among many opponents. Jeffries drew with Choynski.

It is obvious that Jeffries excelled quickly. My argument isn't whether Jeffries was a great fighter, its whether or not he beats Johnson. Its blatantly obvious that Jeffries was the best of his own era.

You needed to mention those details but not that when Johnson fought Fitz, Fitz was 44 and had torn ligiments in his right elbow.

Fair and balanced analysis.

[Kalan]

Johnson would dominate... He probably would have beaten any Heavyweight up through the 1960's.

A peak Holmes would have beaten JJ...and Lewis beats him... The Klitschko's would take him... Ortiz beats him... Joshua is the only guy who stops him.

Well, he had some difficulty with Willard.

He had no difficulty with Willard -- by all reports he made him look like a amateurish novice out-punching him 10-1 through 20 rounds. From ringside reports, nobody at ringside believed the KO shot -- which looked like a fake all the way.. In fact, for the last 5 rounds spectators were hooting and hollering for the boxers to do something and yelling "FAKE" -- so that ending was as real as a 3 dollar bill. Johnson even told his wife to leave the arena at the end of the 25th.

[Mr.DW]

Jeff has hugely better results against common opposition to Johnson who wasn't relevant when Jeff was active.

Jack Monroe - Jeffries did better
Fitzsimmons - Johnson did better
Joe Kennedy - Both knocked him out. Only a fool would think that just because it took Johnson 4 rds instead of 2 that he was inferior to Jeffries. Especially when Jeffries has a come forward, pressure, big punching style and Johnson has an outside counter punching style.

Hank Griffin - Johnson was a novice at this point and Jeffries was a world champ. Not comparable.
Mexican Pete Everett - Again, Johnson was a novice at this point. Everett had a win over Tom Sharkey on his resume.
Joe Choynski - Johnson may have been tricked here. Fights ending in knockout were illegal so Johnson may have been under the impression that it was an exhibition. Apparently Choynski had done that kind of thing before to Bob Fitzsimmons among many opponents. Jeffries drew with Choynski.

It is obvious that Jeffries excelled quickly. My argument isn't whether Jeffries was a great fighter, its whether or not he beats Johnson. Its blatantly obvious that Jeffries was the best of his own era.

You needed to mention those details but not that when Johnson fought Fitz, Fitz was 44 and had torn ligiments in his right elbow.

Fair and balanced analysis.

100% true.

[BitPlayer]

Jeff has hugely better results against common opposition to Johnson who wasn't relevant when Jeff was active.

Jack Monroe - Jeffries did better
Fitzsimmons - Johnson did better
Joe Kennedy - Both knocked him out. Only a fool would think that just because it took Johnson 4 rds instead of 2 that he was inferior to Jeffries. Especially when Jeffries has a come forward, pressure, big punching style and Johnson has an outside counter punching style.

Hank Griffin - Johnson was a novice at this point and Jeffries was a world champ. Not comparable.
Mexican Pete Everett - Again, Johnson was a novice at this point. Everett had a win over Tom Sharkey on his resume.
Joe Choynski - Johnson may have been tricked here. Fights ending in knockout were illegal so Johnson may have been under the impression that it was an exhibition. Apparently Choynski had done that kind of thing before to Bob Fitzsimmons among many opponents. Jeffries drew with Choynski.

It is obvious that Jeffries excelled quickly. My argument isn't whether Jeffries was a great fighter, its whether or not he beats Johnson. Its blatantly obvious that Jeffries was the best of his own era.

Having a look through it, Jeffries fought Hank Griffin twice, the first of which Jeffries was only 2-0 and won by a 14th round KO. Though Jeffries was significantly larger at the times f these fights.
Joe Kennedy, from the sounds of it was fairly out of shape in both fights and did little, so not much to take from that.
For Mexiacan Jeffries wasn't massively experienced, but quite a but more thn Johnson and would've been notably heavier.
For Choynski, neither were very experienced when they fought him, but Jeffries did have a good deal more weight on his side. But there is the issue you mentioned of some possible trickery.

[APerno]

Johnson would dominate... He probably would have beaten any Heavyweight up through the 1960's.

A peak Holmes would have beaten JJ...and Lewis beats him... The Klitschko's would take him... Ortiz beats him... Joshua is the only guy who stops him.

Well, he had some difficulty with Willard.

He had no difficulty with Willard -- by all reports he made him look like a amateurish novice out-punching him 10-1 through 20 rounds. From ringside reports, nobody at ringside believed the KO shot -- which looked like a fake all the way.. In fact, for the last 5 rounds spectators were hooting and hollering for the boxers to do something and yelling "FAKE" -- so that ending was as real as a 3 dollar bill. Johnson even told his wife to leave the arena at the end of the 25th.

Kalan, I was just screwing with you - I read ALL your earlier posts regarding Johnson-Willard, I know your argument - I just couldn't resist taking a cheap shot - sorry

[APerno]

Who says that, Corbett? I suggest you buy in the Ring with Jim Jeffries. The author is rather good, and use prior to the KO it was about even on the cards if one were to use primary press sources at the fight.

Corbett was in shape for the first match and did well, however he did not have the power to hurt Jeffries.

For what it is worth: Over the years I have read what Mister DW stated - observers claimed Corbett (first fight) made Jefferies, from time to time, look like an amateur - that is until Jeff caught up to him - most had Corbett way ahead in the fight. (Although I never quite understood those statements; I am not sure that a decision win was even on the table.)

Does anyone know if the Corbett-Jeffries fight was 'to the finish' (45 rounds to a NC) or would there have been a decision?

Easy Trivia: When was the first time the HW title changed hands via a decision? (No fair looking it up, ya got to think it out.)

According to Corbett it would have gone to a decision.

Easy Trivia: Was it Dempsey-Tunney 1?

Thank you for the Corbett answer - BoxRec has it listed as a 25 rounder - that put Corbett only six minutes from the regaining the title.

Yes to Tunney-Dempsey I – here’s one a touch more difficult (if you don’t look it up): Who was the only HW challenger to lose two decisions in HW championship fights, before Dempsey dropped two decisions to Tunney? Hint: unlike Dempsey, he lost to two different champions. (I hope I am right about this one, no worry though, I’m sure the Board will correct me if I am not)

The Durango Democrat - that must have been one of the articles I read; funny I remember reading this line but had no clue where I read it: “ He was clearly outboxed and at times was made to look like a novice.”

[BitPlayer]

For what it is worth: Over the years I have read what Mister DW stated - observers claimed Corbett (first fight) made Jefferies, from time to time, look like an amateur - that is until Jeff caught up to him - most had Corbett way ahead in the fight. (Although I never quite understood those statements; I am not sure that a decision win was even on the table.)

Does anyone know if the Corbett-Jeffries fight was 'to the finish' (45 rounds to a NC) or would there have been a decision?

Easy Trivia: When was the first time the HW title changed hands via a decision? (No fair looking it up, ya got to think it out.)

According to Corbett it would have gone to a decision.

Easy Trivia: Was it Dempsey-Tunney 1?

Thank you for the Corbett answer - BoxRec has it listed as a 25 rounder - that put Corbett only six minutes from the regaining the title.

Yes to Tunney-Dempsey I – here’s one a touch more difficult (if you don’t look it up): Who was the only HW challenger to lose two decisions in HW championship fights, before Dempsey dropped two decisions to Tunney? Hint: unlike Dempsey, he lost to two different champions. (I hope I am right about this one, no worry though, I’m sure the Board will correct me if I am not)

The Durango Democrat - that must have been one of the articles I read; funny I remember reading this line but had no clue where I read it: “ He was clearly outboxed and at times was made to look like a novice.”

Actually it was Marvin Hart Vs Tommy Burns

[Mr.DW]

According to Corbett it would have gone to a decision.

Easy Trivia: Was it Dempsey-Tunney 1?

Thank you for the Corbett answer - BoxRec has it listed as a 25 rounder - that put Corbett only six minutes from the regaining the title.

Yes to Tunney-Dempsey I – here’s one a touch more difficult (if you don’t look it up): Who was the only HW challenger to lose two decisions in HW championship fights, before Dempsey dropped two decisions to Tunney? Hint: unlike Dempsey, he lost to two different champions. (I hope I am right about this one, no worry though, I’m sure the Board will correct me if I am not)

The Durango Democrat - that must have been one of the articles I read; funny I remember reading this line but had no clue where I read it: “ He was clearly outboxed and at times was made to look like a novice.”

Actually it was Marvin Hart Vs Tommy Burns

Yeah you're right. That was my first guess but I wasn't 100% sure it was right.

[APerno]

According to Corbett it would have gone to a decision.

Easy Trivia: Was it Dempsey-Tunney 1?

Thank you for the Corbett answer - BoxRec has it listed as a 25 rounder - that put Corbett only six minutes from the regaining the title.

Yes to Tunney-Dempsey I – here’s one a touch more difficult (if you don’t look it up): Who was the only HW challenger to lose two decisions in HW championship fights, before Dempsey dropped two decisions to Tunney? Hint: unlike Dempsey, he lost to two different champions. (I hope I am right about this one, no worry though, I’m sure the Board will correct me if I am not)

The Durango Democrat - that must have been one of the articles I read; funny I remember reading this line but had no clue where I read it: “ He was clearly outboxed and at times was made to look like a novice.”

Actually it was Marvin Hart Vs Tommy Burns

See! I figured I would get corrected - I should have worded it: 'lost the title via decision instead of 'changed hands' - but as worded Hart-Burns is the correct answer - that makes Dempsey the first fighter to have the HW title taken from him by decision, but Burns the first fighter to gain the title by decision; Tunney the second. Thanks for the correction.

[Kalan]

You worded it okay... If you win a vacant title it's not changing hands... It's either a title that didn't exist before -- or it's an abandoned title by somebody who retired, was stripped for failure to defend it, or moved to another weight class... The title doesn't change hands at that point -- it's up for grabs... Tunney was the first Heavyweight Champion under Queensberry Rules where the title changed hands by decision...

Here's another question. Does the title change hands as soon as the fight is over (if it's a super close fight nobody knows who won yet)... when the slowest judge gets done marking up his scorecard... when the scorecards are collected and tabulated... or when the result is announced by the emcee???