SONNY LISTON

[nobleart1978]

I have been looking over some old ratings for 1958.

If Sonny had been given a chance for the title in 58 he could easily have beaten Patterson then.

Not to mention Ingemar Johansson and contenders listed like Henry Cooper, Nino Valdes, Bob Baker and Brian London.

Liston would have been heavyweight champ from
1958 - 1964.

What a reign of terror that would have been!!!

[APerno]

I have been looking over some old ratings for 1958.

If Sonny had been given a chance for the title in 58 he could easily have beaten Patterson then.

Not to mention Ingemar Johansson and contenders listed like Henry Cooper, Nino Valdes, Bob Baker and Brian London.

Liston would have been heavyweight champ from
1958 - 1964.

What a reign of terror that would have been!!!

It would not have been a good thing for boxing if Liston became heavyweight champ while Frankie Carbo and Blinky Palermo were still on the street (circa 1958) - Carbo and Palermo having control of the HW title back in 1958 would have made them (even more) powerful; I can't imagine the damage they would have done to the fight game. We surely would have had a fixed HW championship fight, if not two. We were lucky that Patterson (D'Amato) chose to duck Liston until Carbo was out of the picture. I know that was not Patterson/D'Amato's design (they were just ducking Liston) but it worked out that way for us; worked out best for boxing. Sonny Liston as HW champion in 1958 would have been bad for the game, probably very bad.

[nobleart1978]

Carbo and Palermo were behind Marciano and all the middleweight and welterweight champions in the 40s and 50s. With Marciano they used Al Weill as a cover. The game thrived because the best fighters held and lost the titles. Sonny Liston being champ has to be better than Patterson and Ingemar Johannsson.

[Kalan]

Right... Liston wasn't a sophisticated businessman... He just deserved a shot at the Heavyweight Championship ahead of Pete Rademacher, Tom McNeeley, Roy Harris, and Brian London... Roy Harris did well with Patterson, going 12 rounds with Floyd... In his 2nd loss Harris was crushed in the 1st round by Liston... Harris almost looked like Patterson in that fight as he was smashed about the ring.

Liston turned pro 12 months after Patterson -- but Patterson was managed brilliantly but Cus D'Amato -- possibly the best matchmaker ever... It was principally Cus who kept Patterson away from Liston.. D'Amato was pretty much like Al Weill and Charlie Goldman who did a brilliant job managing Marciano.

Cus not only kept Patterson away from Liston, but from Zora Folley, Cleveland Williams, and other hitters who he didn't think were great match-ups for Floyd

[Caractacus]

why do you figure that Mike DeJohn never got a chance at the heavyweight title ?
(yeah sure he had some losses but that didnt prevent others from getting a shot)
DeJohn was a big puncher and had the punchers chance as long as he was upright.
(Sonny Liston even said that Mike DeJohn and Cleveland Williams were the two hardest punchers he had ever faced)
BTW the Liston vrs Mike DeJohn fight was televised on TV live.
Is it Lost?

[APerno]

Carbo and Palermo were behind Marciano and all the middleweight and welterweight champions in the 40s and 50s. With Marciano they used Al Weill as a cover. The game thrived because the best fighters held and lost the titles. Sonny Liston being champ has to be better than Patterson and Ingemar Johannsson.

As a kid I heard different about Marciano - yes he was robbed by Weill, and Weill was probably mobbed up, but the Italian-American story (urban legend) goes like this: Marciano, because as HW Champion was a symbol of Italian-American success, was never to be involved with a fixed fight, nor was he ever to be approached regarding a fixed fight; the mob itself was determined that Marciano remain as clean as Cesar's wife. That is: Carbo and Palermo were told to keep away from Marciano. So goes the Italian-American version of the story.

[Kalan]

They didn't need to fix any of Marciano's fights... But they would have if they had to... However, Rocky never faced a dangerous opponent. Probably the toughest guy he faced was a 39-year-old Joe Walcott who had been knocked out 4 times and beaten 16 times before -- and was on his last legs.

Patterson was ducked by Marciano -- however Floyd did fight much better fighters than Rocky ever fought... Rocky never faced anything like Sonny Liston, Muhammad Ali, Eddie Machen, Oscar Bonavena, Jimmy Ellis, Jerry Quarry, or even Ingo's Bingo -- the murderous right hand of Ingemar Johansson.. If a Light Heavyweight who started his pro career as a Welterweight could floor Rocky - Johannson could probably stretch the smaller man. Patterson wrecked Ingo in their rematch and obviously is the only fighter who ever beat Johannson..

Ingo had dramatic KO wins over Eddie Machen, Floyd Patterson, Henry Cooper, and Dick Richardson...He was more capable than many historians believe. Patterson fought his best fights against Johannson and just made him look really bad.

[APerno]

They didn't need to fix any of Marciano's fights... But they would have if they had to...

Na! that is exactly the thing I am claiming wouldn't have happened; sometimes you have to believe in the sacred and not just the profane.

[Kalan]

Marciano was controlled by mob figures like Al Weill... They got him all the super easy fights and easy challengers... and kept him away from Patterson.

[Sidney Carton]

Marciano was controlled by mob figures like Al Weill... They got him all the super easy fights and easy challengers... and kept him away from Patterson.

Your timeline is cockeyed.

As is your "make nothing" of Marciano.

[ClivePatrickLyons]

Marciano was controlled by mob figures like Al Weill... They got him all the super easy fights and easy challengers... and kept him away from Patterson.

Marciano would have nearly killed Patterson that's why Floyd was kept away from The Rock mate

[evrenb]

Marciano was controlled by mob figures like Al Weill... They got him all the super easy fights and easy challengers... and kept him away from Patterson.

Your timeline is cockeyed.

As is your "make nothing" of Marciano.

Remember if Kalan doesn't like someone all history is rewritten for his purpose. Never let facts get in the way of a good argument .

[Kalan]

Marciano was controlled by mob figures like Al Weill... They got him all the super easy fights and easy challengers... and kept him away from Patterson.

Marciano would have nearly killed Patterson that's why Floyd was kept away from The Rock mate

LOL ... Just like Rocky nearly killed ancient Light Heavyweight, Archie Moore... Moore was so bothered that he fought 11 fights in the next 12 months -- and then Archie fought Patterson... Patterson dominated Moore -- knocking him out much faster and more impressively than the crude Marciano did -- and without getting decked like Rocky did... Marciano wasn't old -- he simply had no desire to fight anyone as good as Patterson and quit very early in his career.

[ClivePatrickLyons]

Marciano was controlled by mob figures like Al Weill... They got him all the super easy fights and easy challengers... and kept him away from Patterson.

Marciano would have nearly killed Patterson that's why Floyd was kept away from The Rock mate

LOL ... Just like Rocky nearly killed ancient Light Heavyweight, Archie Moore... Moore was so bothered that he fought 11 fights in the next 12 months -- and then Archie fought Patterson... Patterson dominated Moore -- knocking him out much faster and more impressively than the crude Marciano did -- and without getting decked like Rocky did... Marciano wasn't old -- he simply had no desire to fight anyone as good as Patterson and quit very early in his career.

Keep exposing yourself hahahahaha

[Kalan]

You're the exposed lame brain... claiming Rocky would kill Floyd Patterson when Patterson beat Moore 10 X as easily as Marciano did.

[APerno]

So how does Eddie Machen fit into this picture - ranked by The Ring from 1956-1961 he never gets a shot - his one round KO loss to Johansson (1958) certainly set him back - but then he went on to extend Liston over 12 rounds (1960; Lost UD) at a time when Liston was rolling over everyone else - his only other loss during this period was to Folly 1960 (UD)

His loss (UD) to Harold Johnson, July 1961 took him out of contention; it was the beginning of the end - he eventually does get a shot at the bogus WBA title in 1965 (Terrell; lost UD).

But between 1956-1961 he was consistently ranked in the top ten, losing only three times, to two eventual champions, and one contender. I feel there was room for him to have gotten a shot.

[Kalan]

Especially considering the challengers who did get opportunities at that time.

[fanman]

I have been looking over some old ratings for 1958.

If Sonny had been given a chance for the title in 58 he could easily have beaten Patterson then.

Not to mention Ingemar Johansson and contenders listed like Henry Cooper, Nino Valdes, Bob Baker and Brian London.

Liston would have been heavyweight champ from
1958 - 1964.

What a reign of terror that would have been!!!

quite. had liston had the good fortune to get a shot in 58, patterson in 62 would have been his 20th defense! also as noted liston was cleaning out the top contenders whilst patterson was rematching johansson. with better luck liston could have had one of the great heavyweight legacies. but then thats what we're here for, to evaluate the by gone eras.

[Kalan]

Luis Ortiz is today's Sonny Liston... He's the undefeated elephant in the room who everyone pretends doesn't exist... and he's getting really old.