I am sick of hearing it

[hitman_hatton1]

winky wright is a great fighter and has one of the best defensive guards ever.

if wright beats taylor then surely no one can question his greatness.

[stujones]

KO Artists..

Alphabet soup, Mayorga.... now I'm not saying he is the greatest champion ever far from it.... but come on.

He BEAT the WBA title from the WBA belt holder.

He BEAT the WBC/IBF titles from the champion there.

Okay, he vacated the IBF title and lost it to the titles when trying to re-unify the belts, but he took all three belts and beat the champions in doing so - and defended vs Forrest to prove it wasn't a fluke.

What else could he have done? He is as much a geniune Welterweight world champion as Hatton is the Light Welterweight champion. Both beat the #1 in the devision, both have unified the belt.

Yes, his Light Middleweight title could be considered an alphabet, paper one - but I was mentioning his Welterweight reign.

VM

All very good, and I agree to a point - but your criticising DLH for looking average vs excellent fighters - one of whom is definately considered a great. The fighters you listed for Hill, Maske, Tiozzo etc - are not in the class of many of the fighters DLH has a W against.

The fact that you think Gomez would have beaten Toney, Jirov, Nelson etc - means f all - he didn't fight these. I agree that Holyfield's cruiserweight run was overated for sure - but combine it with the heavyweight effort, then his greatestness is well secured.

Don't get me wrong, I am not saying Hill at least doesn't belong in the great category - but no way is he considered greater than DLH.

I would have DLH probably in the top 5 "greatest" fighters of the last 10 years.

RJJ, Lopez, Barrera, Hopkins, DLH is how I would probably rank them.

All 4 above him are definate greats, and there are a good few below him - Holyfield, Trinidad, Moseley, Lennox, Morales, Tszyu, Alvarez, Hill, Toney, Pacquiao - I think all definate greats.

I didn't include Whittikar and Chavez because their best part of their career occured before 1996.

Yes, I put DLH ahead of Trinidad and Moseley...

1) I (and most people) think DLH and Mosley are 1 and 1 - and DLH has a better resume.

2) Very close fight vs Trinidad, but DLH (I would argue) had a better resume. Trinidad lacks a Chavez, Quartey esque opponent and met Whittikar when he was further down than DLH, although the same would be said of Vargas the other way round.... Although the fundemental reason why I consider DLh ahead is because DLH's defeats were all in close contests (two controvesial decisions, a split decision and a KO in a fight that was close on the cards).... Trinidad's defeats were massacres.

[Autobarn]

VM

All very good, and I agree to a point - but your criticising DLH for looking average vs excellent fighters - one of whom is definately considered a great. The fighters you listed for Hill, Maske, Tiozzo etc - are not in the class of many of the fighters DLH has a W against.

The fact that you think Gomez would have beaten Toney, Jirov, Nelson etc - means f all - he didn't fight these. I agree that Holyfield's cruiserweight run was overated for sure - but combine it with the heavyweight effort, then his greatestness is well secured.

Don't get me wrong, I am not saying Hill at least doesn't belong in the great category - but no way is he considered greater than DLH.

I would have DLH probably in the top 5 "greatest" fighters of the last 10 years.

RJJ, Lopez, Barrera, Hopkins, DLH is how I would probably rank them.

All 4 above him are definate greats, and there are a good few below him - Holyfield, Trinidad, Moseley, Lennox, Morales, Tszyu, Alvarez, Hill, Toney, Pacquiao - I think all definate greats.

I didn't include Whittikar and Chavez because their best part of their career occured before 1996.

Yes, I put DLH ahead of Trinidad and Moseley...

1) I (and most people) think DLH and Mosley are 1 and 1 - and DLH has a better resume.

2) Very close fight vs Trinidad, but DLH (I would argue) had a better resume. Trinidad lacks a Chavez, Quartey esque opponent and met Whittikar when he was further down than DLH, although the same would be said of Vargas the other way round.... Although the fundemental reason why I consider DLh ahead is because DLH's defeats were all in close contests (two controvesial decisions, a split decision and a KO in a fight that was close on the cards).... Trinidad's defeats were massacres.

Certainly, JC Gomez didn't beat those guys, but I can see him doing so. Without the big win he doesn't merit being called a great, but I think he was a brilliant all round fighter. But JCG should have at least been considered a top 10 p4p fighter, which he wasn't sadly

I definitely think Hill is underrated and DLH overrated. Yes, DLH deserves credit for holding his own vs some of the best fighters in the light welter, welter, light middle divisions. But I don't like attaching the adjective of 'great' next to DLH's name. Maybe it would be better to call both men outstanding modern day champs, whose bodies of work should merit them a HOF place. I certainly don't think DLH showed the skills and guts of a Ricardo Lopez, the technical mastery of Bernard Hopkins, the reperoire and dominance of a Lennox Lewis.

I have no qualms calling Lewis, Lopez, MAB, Pacquiao, Morales, Hopkins and Jones great. I think a distinction needs making, especially in these more confusing times, between outstanding and great, and whether the 'outstanding guy' quite achieved enough to earn a spot in the HOF.

[pundit]

Together with Maywaether-Judah, Wright-Taylor is the classiest matchup of the year. If we can't call Wright-Taylor "great" than I don't know what else.
P

[Autobarn]

I hope WW-Taylor turns out to be a McCallum-Toney I type of fight, with the relatively unproven kid locked into a punishing tactical fight with a master boxing veteran. I reckon it'll be fierce, as there's a lot on the line

(will be interesting to see where Sturm, Abraham and Miranda fit in. All of a sudden this is a quite strong division.)

IMO some ppl are trying to make up history as they go along - particularly HBO. All the Taylor hype has been that he's Hopkins' m/w successor and the present equivalent to Monzon, Hagler & Hopkins. I very much doubt Taylor will stay at middle too long. He's starting to look to big for the division, which Roy Jones did at one point.

as a digression, I wonder if the Taylor-Lacy all US Olympian match will ever happen now.

[states]

Can't see Taylor-Lacy happening any time soon, Lacy has an awful lot of rebuilding to do, although I do think he can come again.

Agree on Taylor moving up though, he does look big at the weight. Whilst I kind of side with Wright in that match-up, I hope Taylor wins, because he looks a likely candidate to step up a weight, and Taylor-Calzaghe is a big fight that would sell, I think. Winky-Calzaghe wouldn't have the same appeal.

[KO Artist]

KO Artists..

Alphabet soup, Mayorga.... now I'm not saying he is the greatest champion ever far from it.... but come on.

He BEAT the WBA title from the WBA belt holder.

He BEAT the WBC/IBF titles from the champion there.

Okay, he vacated the IBF title and lost it to the titles when trying to re-unify the belts, but he took all three belts and beat the champions in doing so - and defended vs Forrest to prove it wasn't a fluke.

What else could he have done? He is as much a geniune Welterweight world champion as Hatton is the Light Welterweight champion. Both beat the #1 in the devision, both have unified the belt.

Yes, his Light Middleweight title could be considered an alphabet, paper one - but I was mentioning his Welterweight reign.

VM

All very good, and I agree to a point - but your criticising DLH for looking average vs excellent fighters - one of whom is definately considered a great. The fighters you listed for Hill, Maske, Tiozzo etc - are not in the class of many of the fighters DLH has a W against.

The fact that you think Gomez would have beaten Toney, Jirov, Nelson etc - means f all - he didn't fight these. I agree that Holyfield's cruiserweight run was overated for sure - but combine it with the heavyweight effort, then his greatestness is well secured.

Don't get me wrong, I am not saying Hill at least doesn't belong in the great category - but no way is he considered greater than DLH.

I would have DLH probably in the top 5 "greatest" fighters of the last 10 years.

RJJ, Lopez, Barrera, Hopkins, DLH is how I would probably rank them.

All 4 above him are definate greats, and there are a good few below him - Holyfield, Trinidad, Moseley, Lennox, Morales, Tszyu, Alvarez, Hill, Toney, Pacquiao - I think all definate greats.

I didn't include Whittikar and Chavez because their best part of their career occured before 1996.

Yes, I put DLH ahead of Trinidad and Moseley...

1) I (and most people) think DLH and Mosley are 1 and 1 - and DLH has a better resume.

2) Very close fight vs Trinidad, but DLH (I would argue) had a better resume. Trinidad lacks a Chavez, Quartey esque opponent and met Whittikar when he was further down than DLH, although the same would be said of Vargas the other way round.... Although the fundemental reason why I consider DLh ahead is because DLH's defeats were all in close contests (two controvesial decisions, a split decision and a KO in a fight that was close on the cards).... Trinidad's defeats were massacres.

Sorry, but these titles you mention mean nothing to me. WBC WBA WBO IBF IBA WBU, I treat them all with equal contempt. Some say one is better than the other. Rubbish all they are is fancy packaging to get TV companies to pay more money.

EG: When Hatton fights Collazo I see it as Hatton moving up to 147 and fighting a guy I rank no 8 in the world. I dont care what piece of shit title is on the line.

Hatton v Collazo is just the same as the old days when Hearns moved up to 154 to fight Marco Geraldo.

Titles dont mean shit to me, I'm just interested in the match.

[stujones]

Fair enough, but who was the #1 Welterweight in the world when Mayorga faced Forrest? Margarito?

[stujones]

VM,

It will all depend on the definition.... For me a great has got have achieved an awful (unified a devision and reigned for a long time, or won titles from "the man" at other weights).... and also had the skills to hang in there with fellow greats from past eras.

For me, I have absolutely no qualms in labelling DLH and Hill as all time greats.... absolutely no qualms whatsoever.

However, my argument is that DLH is definately ahead of the Hill in a order of greatness.

If, DLH decided to fight for a longer period than we all anticipate (and he is scheduled to fight in September after Mayorga) - then what can he do to establish greatness in your eyes.

Had he beaten Hopkins, would that have been enough - you see for me had he beaten Hopkins that might have moved him to the #1 fighter of the last 10 years - not scraping into the "great" category.

As I said in my post previous, I would have him above Morales and Pacquiao (currently) in a great list.

You say he didn't have the dominance of a Lennox Lewis, I would disagree with this - didn't anyone come near him as a Lightweight? He unified the Lightweight belt and fought some tremendous names and hardly lost a round. He moved up as soon as all the credible opponents were gone. Stevie Johnston, Jose Luis Castillo and Shane Moseley were just really prospects when DLH was Lightweight king.

Okay there is one name on his resume that is glaringly missing.... Kostya Tszyu as a Light Welterweight - that would have been a thriller - but he didn't exactly avoid Tszyu to fight bums at Welterweight. He moved up to fight the likes of Whittikar, Trinidad, Carr, Quartey, Rivera (whom many thought was the real world champion). He got criticised for facing the reigning EBU champion in a mandatory.

[Autobarn]

VM,

It will all depend on the definition.... For me a great has got have achieved an awful (unified a devision and reigned for a long time, or won titles from "the man" at other weights).... and also had the skills to hang in there with fellow greats from past eras.

For me, I have absolutely no qualms in labelling DLH and Hill as all time greats.... absolutely no qualms whatsoever.

However, my argument is that DLH is definately ahead of the Hill in a order of greatness.

If, DLH decided to fight for a longer period than we all anticipate (and he is scheduled to fight in September after Mayorga) - then what can he do to establish greatness in your eyes.

Had he beaten Hopkins, would that have been enough - you see for me had he beaten Hopkins that might have moved him to the #1 fighter of the last 10 years - not scraping into the "great" category.

As I said in my post previous, I would have him above Morales and Pacquiao (currently) in a great list.

You say he didn't have the dominance of a Lennox Lewis, I would disagree with this - didn't anyone come near him as a Lightweight? He unified the Lightweight belt and fought some tremendous names and hardly lost a round. He moved up as soon as all the credible opponents were gone. Stevie Johnston, Jose Luis Castillo and Shane Moseley were just really prospects when DLH was Lightweight king.

Okay there is one name on his resume that is glaringly missing.... Kostya Tszyu as a Light Welterweight - that would have been a thriller - but he didn't exactly avoid Tszyu to fight bums at Welterweight. He moved up to fight the likes of Whittikar, Trinidad, Carr, Quartey, Rivera (whom many thought was the real world champion). He got criticised for facing the reigning EBU champion in a mandatory.

yes, but what cheapens his achievements as a lightweight and super feather is the way he used the day after weigh in to get a massive advantage over his much smaller foes. whereas as a welter it was all bloody pick and choose after the top guys had looked bad. the exception being Tito, but DLH's late rds performance is anything but that of a great fighter. he should've lost to Tito by having points taken off, imo

de la hoya looked like he could've been a great light welter, i'll give him that

at least with Hill it was all on balanced scales, and Maske (record # of IBF title defenses, many quality defenses), Tiozzo (would beat McCallum), Washington (goes on to give 2 or 3 outstanding showings at cruiserweight and wins a title), Leslie Stewart (coming off a win over the remarkable Marvin Johnson), Kinchen (did v well vs Hearns) are all far better than ppl give credit for. Also, being the average man division Hill wasn't given as much credit for beating quality Americans, and with his good wins over Europeans he was never going to get loads of credit. I don't doubt that some of those guys would have given Michael Spinks plenty of trouble

[stujones]

Rules are rules though and DLH didn't break any.... Its not like he was alone in doing this.... Trinidad, Vargas, Cotto, Gatti and shit loads other boiled down to make below their walk around weight.

He did complain about being tight at Super Feather, but not at Lightweight and was saying he was fighting above his station at Welterweight.

On his Welterweight achievements.... When did Quartey look bad?

[mattyp151]

Together with Maywaether-Judah, Wright-Taylor is the classiest matchup of the year. If we can't call Wright-Taylor "great" than I don't know what else.
P

Thank you. People are sitting here annointing Joe "great" because he beat Lacy and is looking for aged fighters past their prime, where you have 3 of the best fighters on the planet fighting this year, and calling them "good". I don't get the difference.

By Taylor fighting Wright immediately after Hopkins twice, he has already made much bigger strides and taken bigger chances in his 26 fights than Calzaghe made in his first 40.

[Manos de Oro]

I know his chin has let him down in the past, but if he were to beat Sidorenko in Germany, would Rafael Marquez make the cut? His first fight with wizard Mark Johnson was amazing. It wasn't televised on main HBO (IIRC) so it might be a bit hard to get, but it's well worth searching out. He also KO'd (decisively) Johnson in rematch and recently shut out Ricardo Vargas, who holds two wins over Jhonny Gonzalez - who has been on a hot streak since.

Then there's the big win over Austin - by decisive KO no less, knocked him through the ropes if I remember right. Only time Austin's technical ability has ever let him down.

A lot of people picked Mabuza to beat him, but I had faith and actually went for TKO 4. I didn't expect him to dominate so strongly, but it didn't surprise me.

There's always going to be those KO defeats though. I think I've seen two of them, one where he was legitimately KO'd and another - the most recent loss - where he got caught by a big punch, then got caught by the referee's count. Also, I'm not sure why he was fighting a guy 39-14-2 over 8 rounds on a debut?

[lvlarc]

Oscar De La Hoya - Only man in the world to win a legit world title in SIX different weight classes. This alone will secure his place in the HOF. Without doubt a Great fighter.

[Manos de Oro]

He might have that nice collection lvlarc mate, but I wouldn't put him near Emile Griffith.

[KO Artist]

He might have that nice collection lvlarc mate, but I wouldn't put him near Emile Griffith.

Griffith would have KO'd him in 6 rounds

[lvlarc]

He might have that nice collection lvlarc mate, but I wouldn't put him near Emile Griffith.

Griffith would have KO'd him in 6 rounds

Emile only ever KO'd 10 of his opp within 6 rounds, what makes you think he could KO ODLH within 6?

[stujones]

He might have that nice collection lvlarc mate, but I wouldn't put him near Emile Griffith.

Griffith would have KO'd him in 6 rounds

Griffith might have beaten DLH - Griffith is one of my favourites, but wouldn't have KO'd him.

Griffith didn't have lights out power (23 KO's in 85 wins albeit in mainly excellent company) and DLH took Trinidad, Mosley, Vargas, Quartey's, Chavez's best shots.

At least give him that much credit.

[KO Artist]

He might have that nice collection lvlarc mate, but I wouldn't put him near Emile Griffith.

Griffith would have KO'd him in 6 rounds

Griffith might have beaten DLH - Griffith is one of my favourites, but wouldn't have KO'd him.

Griffith didn't have lights out power (23 KO's in 85 wins albeit in mainly excellent company) and DLH took Trinidad, Mosley, Vargas, Quartey's, Chavez's best shots.

At least give him that much credit.

Hopkins doent have Lights out power. DLH got stopped with a body shot.

Griffith holds wins over guys like Dick Tiger. He would have been way too strong for DLH.

Emile walks through him and wins by KO

[lvlarc]

Emile was a master boxer, didnt have a great punch. A little fact on Griffith.


In his career, Griffith met 10 world champions and boxed 339 title-fight rounds, more than any other fighter in history.


Boxer, not a puncher.

[stujones]

I know his chin has let him down in the past, but if he were to beat Sidorenko in Germany, would Rafael Marquez make the cut? His first fight with wizard Mark Johnson was amazing. It wasn't televised on main HBO (IIRC) so it might be a bit hard to get, but it's well worth searching out. He also KO'd (decisively) Johnson in rematch and recently shut out Ricardo Vargas, who holds two wins over Jhonny Gonzalez - who has been on a hot streak since.

Then there's the big win over Austin - by decisive KO no less, knocked him through the ropes if I remember right. Only time Austin's technical ability has ever let him down.

A lot of people picked Mabuza to beat him, but I had faith and actually went for TKO 4. I didn't expect him to dominate so strongly, but it didn't surprise me.

There's always going to be those KO defeats though. I think I've seen two of them, one where he was legitimately KO'd and another - the most recent loss - where he got caught by a big punch, then got caught by the referee's count. Also, I'm not sure why he was fighting a guy 39-14-2 over 8 rounds on a debut?

Rafael is close, but I think given a lack of depth in his devision - should consider to fight the Super Bantams or Featherweights to try and establish a legacy.

I don't think Mabuza was out of his fight with Marquez - I wouldn't mind seeing a rematch.

Siderenko isn't a particularly strong champion, very lucky to win the title and hasn't looked particularly special in title defenses. Not sure its much of a legacy enhancing fight.

[Manos de Oro]

Rafael is close, but I think given a lack of depth in his devision - should consider to fight the Super Bantams or Featherweights to try and establish a legacy.

Yes, I think the talk was of him to beat Sidorenko then move up. I was just mentioning Sidorenko because a win overseas in Germany would look good.

[stujones]

Griffith would have KO'd him in 6 rounds

Griffith might have beaten DLH - Griffith is one of my favourites, but wouldn't have KO'd him.

Griffith didn't have lights out power (23 KO's in 85 wins albeit in mainly excellent company) and DLH took Trinidad, Mosley, Vargas, Quartey's, Chavez's best shots.

At least give him that much credit.

Hopkins doent have Lights out power. DLH got stopped with a body shot.

Griffith holds wins over guys like Dick Tiger. He would have been way too strong for DLH.

Emile walks through him and wins by KO

no one is denying Griffith's pedigree, we are doubting his power.

One time Oscar has got stopped and what your labelling him vulnerable? That was a peach of a punch, delivered by a much naturally bigger man by a DLH who is probably past his peak.

Even the most durable fighters can go down when being caught with a punch of that quality... Not many had a harder chin than Griffith himself, but Hurricane Carter still smashed him in a round.

As I said Trinidad, Mosley, Quartey, Vargas all bigger punchers (if not as good) as Griffith - DLH only got put down by one of them, and got up to win.

[Autobarn]

Rules are rules though and DLH didn't break any.... Its not like he was alone in doing this.... Trinidad, Vargas, Cotto, Gatti and shit loads other boiled down to make below their walk around weight.

He did complain about being tight at Super Feather, but not at Lightweight and was saying he was fighting above his station at Welterweight.

On his Welterweight achievements.... When did Quartey look bad?

He didn't look awesome vs JL Lopez. I think IQ was a tad overrated and he was a bit lucky to even win his first title

i don't doubt that my Hill/DLH opinions are a tad hypocritical, that's just the way things are. with dlh being overrated (IMO) and hill being grossly underrated, my natural inclination is to talk down one and talk up the other

i wouldn't like dlh's chances vs any of the great welters Griffith, Napoles, etc. however he certainly wouldn't be out of his depth with a guy like Tszyu



I think Rafael Marquez is brilliant. Some major names on his ledger in Austin and Too Sharp. Marquez is pretty outstanding. If he beats Jhonny or Sidorenko, I'll consider him a better bantam champ than Orlando Canizales. Should have a Mabuza rematch first, i agree

Calzaghe certainly showed the workrate, speed, skills and repertoire of a great fighter vs Lacy, and also showed traces of them vs good tough world class fighters Eubank, Woodhall, Brewer, Byron. All he needs to do is either clear out the top s/m Euros or win a light heavyweight title to have a pretty complete body of work. Let's wait till his career is finished

What's Taylor done besides 'beat' Hopkins? I'm not convinced he did enough to win either of those fights. I do think Taylor is good and he can beat Wright, but right now he's a boy champion with the judges on his side

[KO Artist]

Griffith might have beaten DLH - Griffith is one of my favourites, but wouldn't have KO'd him.

Griffith didn't have lights out power (23 KO's in 85 wins albeit in mainly excellent company) and DLH took Trinidad, Mosley, Vargas, Quartey's, Chavez's best shots.

At least give him that much credit.

If you think Trinidad Moseley Vargas and Quartey are as good a fighter as Emile Griffith I cant beleive you have ever seen griffith fight

Hopkins doent have Lights out power. DLH got stopped with a body shot.

Griffith holds wins over guys like Dick Tiger. He would have been way too strong for DLH.

Emile walks through him and wins by KO

no one is denying Griffith's pedigree, we are doubting his power.

One time Oscar has got stopped and what your labelling him vulnerable? That was a peach of a punch, delivered by a much naturally bigger man by a DLH who is probably past his peak.

Even the most durable fighters can go down when being caught with a punch of that quality... Not many had a harder chin than Griffith himself, but Hurricane Carter still smashed him in a round.

As I said Trinidad, Mosley, Quartey, Vargas all bigger punchers (if not as good) as Griffith - DLH only got put down by one of them, and got up to win.