Prime James J. Jeffries Vs. Jack Johnson

[pound per pound]

Johnson would dominate... He probably would have beaten any Heavyweight up through the 1960's.

A peak Holmes would have beaten JJ...and Lewis beats him... The Klitschko's would take him... Ortiz beats him... Joshua is the only guy who stops him.

Well, he had some difficulty with Willard.

He had no difficulty with Willard -- by all reports he made him look like a amateurish novice out-punching him 10-1 through 20 rounds. From ringside reports, nobody at ringside believed the KO shot -- which looked like a fake all the way.. In fact, for the last 5 rounds spectators were hooting and hollering for the boxers to do something and yelling "FAKE" -- so that ending was as real as a 3 dollar bill. Johnson even told his wife to leave the arena at the end of the 25th.

Kalan,

There is film of several rounds from Johnson V Willard, and it looks rather even to me. Maybe you should watch it. Your way off on the punching stats. Way off.

Willard landed a hard shot to end it in round 26, and hurt Johnson badly in round 25 with a body shot. There was nothing fake about it.

[Kalan]

Read the newspaper reports of the fight because you're blind... You'll find Johnson was dominant and out-punched Willard 10-1. And you'll also find that nobody at ringside believed the KO shot... There exists no still shot, no motion picture, or any slo-mo showing it connect... and there was much discussion about the KO punch being fake and Johnson simply taking the count... Also Johnson told his wife to leave the arena after the 25th round... and that just before he faked the KO blow he checked her box to make sure she was gone... We ran a whole thread on it... One of the relevant things that the reporters caught was that neither boxer exhibited evidence of being in a Heavyweight fight, neither being badly marked. So basically it was a pillow fight with a fake ending.

[pound per pound]

Read the newspaper reports of the fight because you're blind... You'll find Johnson was dominant and out-punched Willard 10-1. And you'll also find that nobody at ringside believed the KO shot... There exists no still shot, no motion picture, or any slo-mo showing it connect... and there was much discussion about the KO punch being fake and Johnson simply taking the count... Also Johnson told his wife to leave the arena after the 25th round... and that just before he faked the KO blow he checked her box to make sure she was gone... We ran a whole thread on it... One of the relevant things that the reporters caught was that neither boxer exhibited evidence of being in a Heavyweight fight, neither being badly marked. So basically it was a pillow fight with a fake ending.

A pillow fight with a fake ending? You must also believe the earth is flat.

I can see you close minded in this and other topics and wrong so there's no use in going further expect to say you should watch the film as it has no such agendas.

[Kalan]

You're the Flat Earther lad. We did a whole thread on the fake fight, including newspaper reports of eye witnesses who reported on the fight. Those aren't my conclusions. Those were the folks who watched the fight... witnessed it first hand and yelled fake...said Johnson made Willard look foolish and like a rank amateur.. and outlanded him 10-1... and sent word to his wife to leave the arena before the 26th round... Then looked directly at her box just before he faked the KO blow... And reported that "almost certainly no KO blow landed." Nobody saw it or heard the punch at ringside.

Either you believe eye witnesses at the fight... Or you go on believing your fantasy that a completely inept swinger beat one of the greatest Heavyweight Champions in the history of Boxing.. Willard had no interest in Boxing and only did it for the money.. He was a fake all the way. He defended his title only once after more than 4 years of not fighting (his exhibition with Frank Moran was always represented until recently as a no decision fight. Willard was hardly fit for a title fight weighing 260). Willard did a marvelous imitation of a punching bag in getting slaughtered by Dempsey... Jack said he swung as hard as he could because, "hitting Willard was like throwing a pine cone at the side of a barn."

[cfang]

johnson was like a heavyweight floyd mayweather. I don't think there's film of him at his best, he messed about mostly and toyed with his opponents, jeffries a classic example of this. I know theres the lay off and all that but johnson just so superior its not true. I think he's almost up there with louis and ali really. With all three, their careers would have been more impressive without external factors that curtailed them.

Ali - the 3 years he lost through the war thing. Cant see anyone in this forum who would think he wouldn't have gone through those years undefeated.
Louis - the almost 4 years he lost due to ww2 - again can't see anyone beating him in that period. How many defences would he have had 35, 45?
johnson - Well his colour stopped him getting a shot when he deserved it. In another era he'd have got a shot around the 1903,4 part of his career when he started beating contenders and even in his, he should have got a shot around 1905,6 - 3 years before he actually did. someone else pointed out that the 45 rounds of the fight with willard was unfortunate. If it'd been 15 or 20 rounds say - which was more likely at the time, he'd have won that and no doubt held the title for longer. Could be argued that johnson could have held the title from 1905-1917 ish. Also can't be discounted that johnson had to put up with the most overt racism. The great white hope etc, he fought in front of like almost totally white crowds baying for his blood. A bit like a fighter fighting away, every single fight!

[cfang]

johnson was like a heavyweight floyd mayweather. I don't think there's film of him at his best, he messed about mostly and toyed with his opponents, jeffries a classic example of this. I know theres the lay off and all that but johnson just so superior its not true. I think he's almost up there with louis and ali really. With all three, their careers would have been more impressive without external factors that curtailed them.

Ali - the 3 years he lost through the war thing. Cant see anyone in this forum who would think he wouldn't have gone through those years undefeated.
Louis - the almost 4 years he lost due to ww2 - again can't see anyone beating him in that period. How many defences would he have had 35, 45?
johnson - Well his colour stopped him getting a shot when he deserved it. In another era he'd have got a shot around the 1903,4 part of his career when he started beating contenders and even in his, he should have got a shot around 1905,6 - 3 years before he actually did. someone else pointed out that the 45 rounds of the fight with willard was unfortunate. If it'd been 15 or 20 rounds say - which was more likely at the time, he'd have won that and no doubt held the title for longer. Could be argued that johnson could have held the title from 1905-1917 ish. Also can't be discounted that johnson had to put up with the most overt racism. The great white hope etc, he fought in front of like almost totally white crowds baying for his blood. A bit like a fighter fighting away, every single fight!

Oh and also his opponents being allowed to do pretty much anything they liked to try and beat him - flynn's consistent and blatant head butting for one.

[BitPlayer]

johnson was like a heavyweight floyd mayweather. I don't think there's film of him at his best, he messed about mostly and toyed with his opponents, jeffries a classic example of this. I know theres the lay off and all that but johnson just so superior its not true. I think he's almost up there with louis and ali really. With all three, their careers would have been more impressive without external factors that curtailed them.

Ali - the 3 years he lost through the war thing. Cant see anyone in this forum who would think he wouldn't have gone through those years undefeated.
Louis - the almost 4 years he lost due to ww2 - again can't see anyone beating him in that period. How many defences would he have had 35, 45?
johnson - Well his colour stopped him getting a shot when he deserved it. In another era he'd have got a shot around the 1903,4 part of his career when he started beating contenders and even in his, he should have got a shot around 1905,6 - 3 years before he actually did. someone else pointed out that the 45 rounds of the fight with willard was unfortunate. If it'd been 15 or 20 rounds say - which was more likely at the time, he'd have won that and no doubt held the title for longer. Could be argued that johnson could have held the title from 1905-1917 ish. Also can't be discounted that johnson had to put up with the most overt racism. The great white hope etc, he fought in front of like almost totally white crowds baying for his blood. A bit like a fighter fighting away, every single fight!

There's a big difference between being forced into a layoff for 3 or 4 years, and choosing to reite, becoming over 100lbs overweight then trying to have a comeback almost 6 years later at 35. Jack Johnson himself said there's no way he'd get into the shape he was. SOme of Jeffries main strengths, his speed and stamina were gone.

As for him deserving a in 1905, not really. He wouldn't have been a bad challenger, but he was owed one really, He'd beat a few people that went onto become top fighters, but they were really young {McVea was a teenager), or in Langford's case tiny, and hadn't done much at heavyweight yet. Also it's hard to feel too sorry for him not getting a shot when he denied the likes of Langford a shot for the same reason white boxers would have.

[Kalan]

johnson was like a heavyweight floyd mayweather. I don't think there's film of him at his best, he messed about mostly and toyed with his opponents, jeffries a classic example of this. I know theres the lay off and all that but johnson just so superior its not true. I think he's almost up there with louis and ali really. With all three, their careers would have been more impressive without external factors that curtailed them.

Ali - the 3 years he lost through the war thing. Cant see anyone in this forum who would think he wouldn't have gone through those years undefeated.
Louis - the almost 4 years he lost due to ww2 - again can't see anyone beating him in that period. How many defences would he have had 35, 45?
johnson - Well his colour stopped him getting a shot when he deserved it. In another era he'd have got a shot around the 1903,4 part of his career when he started beating contenders and even in his, he should have got a shot around 1905,6 - 3 years before he actually did. someone else pointed out that the 45 rounds of the fight with willard was unfortunate. If it'd been 15 or 20 rounds say - which was more likely at the time, he'd have won that and no doubt held the title for longer. Could be argued that johnson could have held the title from 1905-1917 ish. Also can't be discounted that johnson had to put up with the most overt racism. The great white hope etc, he fought in front of like almost totally white crowds baying for his blood. A bit like a fighter fighting away, every single fight!

Had Ali not sat out 3 years he'd have met Joe Frazier earlier.. A younger Frazier who faced Chuvalo was better.. He had more power and speed and his chin didn't get beaten down so much at a time he was much younger.. He was like Marciano -- never a skill guy to begin with. A young Frazier destroys Ali.

Johnson beats the Hell out of Louis... Billy Conn lit Louis up like a Christmas tree and Schmeling knocked Louis out.. They certainly weren't master boxers.. Louis was knocked down 12 times -- several times by guys who couldn't box or fight particularly well.. Johnson wasn't floored in his prime except to set up a KO punch against Ketchel -- who he expected to charge into a KO punch and that's exactly what happened.. Johnson was trying to make an exciting highlight reel for the movie rights. Louis was washed up at 37.. Johnson was undefeated from age 37 to 48 -- at which age he easily beat Pat Lester in a 15 round fight.

Johnson beats he Hell out of Ali... Ali was floored hard and almost knocked out by 185-pound Henry Cooper.. And when Ali was 31, chinny Ken Norton broke his jaw and beat him up.. When Ali was 36 a novice named Leon Spinks beat him up.. Spinks has 7 pro fights.. You can't see any of those situations happening to Jack Johnson... Johnson was too smart and skilled for Louis and Ali.

[APerno]

johnson was like a heavyweight floyd mayweather. I don't think there's film of him at his best, he messed about mostly and toyed with his opponents, jeffries a classic example of this. I know theres the lay off and all that but johnson just so superior its not true. I think he's almost up there with louis and ali really. With all three, their careers would have been more impressive without external factors that curtailed them.

Ali - the 3 years he lost through the war thing. Cant see anyone in this forum who would think he wouldn't have gone through those years undefeated.
Louis - the almost 4 years he lost due to ww2 - again can't see anyone beating him in that period. How many defences would he have had 35, 45?
johnson - Well his colour stopped him getting a shot when he deserved it. In another era he'd have got a shot around the 1903,4 part of his career when he started beating contenders and even in his, he should have got a shot around 1905,6 - 3 years before he actually did. someone else pointed out that the 45 rounds of the fight with willard was unfortunate. If it'd been 15 or 20 rounds say - which was more likely at the time, he'd have won that and no doubt held the title for longer. Could be argued that johnson could have held the title from 1905-1917 ish. Also can't be discounted that johnson had to put up with the most overt racism. The great white hope etc, he fought in front of like almost totally white crowds baying for his blood. A bit like a fighter fighting away, every single fight!

Had Ali not sat out 3 years he'd have met Joe Frazier earlier.. A younger Frazier who faced Chuvalo was better.. He had more power and speed and his chin didn't get beaten down so much at a time he was much younger.. He was like Marciano -- never a skill guy to begin with. A young Frazier destroys Ali.

Johnson beats the Hell out of Louis... Billy Conn lit Louis up like a Christmas tree and Schmeling knocked Louis out.. They certainly weren't master boxers.. Louis was knocked down 12 times -- several times by guys who couldn't box or fight particularly well.. Johnson wasn't floored in his prime except to set up a KO punch against Ketchel -- who he expected to charge into a KO punch and that's exactly what happened.. Johnson was trying to make an exciting highlight reel for the movie rights. Louis was washed up at 37.. Johnson was undefeated from age 37 to 48 -- at which age he easily beat Pat Lester in a 15 round fight.

Johnson beats he Hell out of Ali... Ali was floored hard and almost knocked out by 185-pound Henry Cooper.. And when Ali was 31, chinny Ken Norton broke his jaw and beat him up.. When Ali was 36 a novice named Leon Spinks beat him up.. Spinks has 7 pro fights.. You can't see any of those situations happening to Jack Johnson... Johnson was too smart and skilled for Louis and Ali.

A 1968 Ali cuts Joe Frazier to ribbons; likely stops him late - a '68 Ali doesn't lay on the ropes and let Frazier win rounds, by the time they reach the championship rounds Frazier is so far behind on the cards, and his face is so busted-up, that Eddie Futch(sp) realizes there is no point in letting it continue. Headline: Frazier RTD after 13 . . .

and, I am not sure who said it, but I agree that a three year lay-off like Dempsey took is far less debilitating to a fighter than the three year exile like Ali experienced. - As far as Johnson goes, I would put his period between Flynn and Willard to be such an 'exile' - Johnson/Moran/Murray were not fights that helped keep Jack Johnson sharp - I would go as far as to say that the Moran fight (fiasco) and all that went with it, helped drain Johnson's spirit.

[cfang]

Ali of 68 beats frazier by stoppage or wide points win
Louis or johnson? louis props greater but johnson beats him on pts. Ali beats johnson on points.

[Kalan]

A 1968 Ali cuts Joe Frazier to ribbons; likely stops him late - a '68 Ali doesn't lay on the ropes and let Frazier win rounds, by the time they reach the championship rounds Frazier is so far behind on the cards, and his face is so busted-up

Karl Mildenberger was a clumsy little 194-pound punching bag...Ali couldn't even cut THAT bum to ribbons... How's he going to cut Frazier??? How long do you think Mildenberger would go with Frazier???? Joe was anxious to fight Mildenberger or Cooper.. Forget it, that was not going to happen in a million years!!! Mildenberger refused to fight Jimmy Ellis or Floyd Patterson he was so inept.. Ellis easily outboxed Bonavena... Bonavena easily outboxed Mildenberger.

Frazier smashed George Chuvalo out in 4 rounds without even trying... Smoking Joe battered Chuvalo into a quick stoppage at his peak, when Joe had 16 fights... Ali was such a soft and weak puncher that he couldn't hurt Chuvalo going 27 rounds with him... How's he going to stop Frazier who definitely was not a bleeder or prone to cuts... Ali hit Frazier with a million punches in their first fight... A much stronger 215-pound Ali didn't have the power to stop him.

Likely a younger, stronger, leaner Frazier would beat Ali badly and win going away... Frazier was way past his best when he beat Ali. Though he was young, he was suffering from many documented health issues when he beat Ali -- including chronically high blood pressure and an enlarged heart.

[Bworsley]

Tough one, I think Johnson would probably win in the end