Prime Sugar Ray Robinson VS Prime SR Leonard

[Kalan]

Prime years are whenever you gain the experience and skills to have a complete game -- to whenever you begin to fade, which is different for everyone.

Robinson scored his most memorable win 2 days before his 36th birthday by knocking out Gene Fullmer.. He looked sharp the whole fight.. So at 33 he was good... Wladimir Klitschko looked great at 38 blowing away Kubrat Pulev.. but for hIs next fight he was 39 versus Bryant Jennings.. He won but looked slightly faded to me.. I figure his prime was over and he was on the slide.. Vitali still looked good at 40 and 41...I think he just wanted to do something else.

Some unfortunate boxers are in their 20's when their best day are over.... Wilfredo Benitez.. Barney Ross.. and Mike Tyson kind of lost his focus..

[Kalan]

Prime years are whenever you gain the experience and skills to have a complete game -- to whenever you begin to fade, which is different for everyone.

Robinson scored his most memorable win 2 days before his 36th birthday by knocking out Gene Fullmer.. He looked sharp the whole fight.. So at 33 he was good... Wladimir Klitschko looked great at 38 blowing away Kubrat Pulev.. but for hIs next fight he was 39 versus Bryant Jennings.. He won but looked slightly faded to me.. I figure his prime was over and he was on the slide.. Vitali still looked good at 40 and 41...I think he just wanted to do something else.

Some unfortunate boxers are in their 20's when their best day are over.... Wilfredo Benitez.. Barney Ross.. and Mike Tyson kind of lost his focus..

Just for my own benefit, are you claiming Tyson " lost " his prime in February 1990, but " found " it again 4 months later and kept hold of it for a further 12 months whilst he destroyed Tillman and Stewart, then beat Rudduck twice?

Because that would definitely be a first.

Tyson was a prime fighter when he lost to Buster Douglas.. He had a bad night and Buster was bigger, taller, faster, stronger, and rangier than Tyson -- and when Buster wanted to put them to good use he had more skills than guys like Tillman, Stewart, and Ruddock.. I don't think Mike cared much for the science of Boxing -- any more than his idol Jack Dempsey did.. I think his best days were over when he met Holyfield and Lewis... Not that they wouldn't have beaten Mike in his prime because I think they would have -- but It's hard to be rich and horny and have millions of dollars to burn on whatever -- and having delicious babes lusting after you... even if you know they're after your fame and money. Keeping your mind on rest, sleep, nutrition, and hours and months of training -- when there's much more important things to take care of like bedding beautiful babes, are very tough things for some guys to concentrate on... And I think Tyson was one of those guys.

[jaclem3]

......after reading a lot o his posts, i think kalan reached his prime when he was in high school..

[Kalan]

Close... I graduated at 17 and my prime was 18 to 36.

[Ambling Alp II]

......after reading a lot o his posts, i think kalan reached his prime when he was in high school..

[BoxBuzz]

Other than Kowlin always misspelling my moniker, and belittling other opinions including my own, I just see him as an opinion "outlier" based on his experience. He is eccentric....so what....he is opinionated...so what.....he has experience which seems to have skewed his assessment ability......who doesn't?

The flat out belittling of other opinions as if they were unworthy....is like something out of Wayne's world...so it's almost laughable .so what?

Sticks, stones...you know how that goes.

I'm of the opinion that Leonard actually matured better into the Middleweight division than Robinson did and would have the edge there. Not so in the Welterweight division where I see Robinson as the best of all time.

[elmersalsa]

Other than Kowlin always misspelling my moniker, and belittling other opinions including my own, I just see him as an opinion "outlier" based on his experience. He is eccentric....so what....he is opinionated...so what.....he has experience which seems to have skewed his assessment ability......who doesn't?

The flat out belittling of other opinions as if they were unworthy....is like something out of Wayne's world...so it's almost laughable .so what?

Sticks, stones...you know how that goes.

I'm of the opinion that Leonard actually matured better into the Middleweight division than Robinson did and would have the edge there. Not so in the Welterweight division where I see Robinson as the best of all time.

I see it all on the reverse, BoxBuzz. Robinson a better middleweight than Leonard by far. Leonard was a better welterweight not by much.

[Kalan]

Other than Kowlin always misspelling my moniker, and belittling other opinions including my own, I just see him as an opinion "outlier" based on his experience. He is eccentric....so what....he is opinionated...so what.....he has experience which seems to have skewed his assessment ability......who doesn't?

The flat out belittling of other opinions as if they were unworthy....is like something out of Wayne's world...so it's almost laughable .so what?

Sticks, stones...you know how that goes.

I'm of the opinion that Leonard actually matured better into the Middleweight division than Robinson did and would have the edge there. Not so in the Welterweight division where I see Robinson as the best of all time.

BuzzBox I don't belittle opinions...just folks who refuse to look at facts.. Their arguments about Joshua are typical.. He only has 17 fights and hasn't fought high caliber opponents, therefore he's not real good... Instead of asking: "Is his jab real good? ... is his footwork excellent? ... are his right counter shots sneaky and deceptive? ... is his defense solid? ... does he have a strong all-around game? ... can he fight well inside and outside? ... is he a great puncher to go along with that?"

Regarding Armstrong... Ignore the fact Armstrong fought tons of tomato cans and lost to some of them... ignore his fouling, getting DQ'd in fights, and ramming people with his head... ignore him getting 5 point deductions in 1 fight... ignore the fact that he never faced a real good puncher other than Robinson, in a fight where he meekly tried to survive... Forget that Armstrong had 32 wins in his first 45 fights---but tell me Roman Gonzalez, 45-0, doesn't impress you because he failed to knock his last opponent out.

I'm not the least eccentric. Everyone has opinions -- some opinions are valid and some aren't valid... Some feel Donald Trump would make an excellent president. They liked him on "Apprentice" ... He only declared bankruptcy 4 times ... He duped applicants to Trump University ... Most women, African-Americans and Latino-Americans think he'd make a lousy president and think opinions to the contrary need belittling - because they make no sense.

[BoxBuzz]

I'm of the opinion that Leonard actually matured better into the Middleweight division than Robinson did and would have the edge there. Not so in the Welterweight division where I see Robinson as the best of all time.

I have to admit, you have me completely confused with that one. The guy only had 2 Middleweight fights, a debatable win over Hagler, and the defeat to Camacho.

I don't think any reasonable fan of the fight game takes the S / Middle // Light Heavy catch weight fights involving Hearns, Lalonde and a washed up Duran seriously, do they? Exceptionally good Welterweight, but I wouldn't put too much stock on anything above that.

Fair enough, and quantity is huge here so I'm not surprised I'm in the minority.....and here's why. I see Monzon, Hagler and Robinson as the best 3 MW's of all time. Pretty much in that order. So Ray didn't campaign in the MW division....so I understand the confusion. I don't think the Camacho fight says much....but beating Hagler...that's big. So perhaps I could say it better this way, Leonard would get my bet in a MW fight with Robinson...and I'd bet light. Robinson would get my bet in the WW division....and I'd bet my house.

I suppose I'd have to say that Robinson WAS the better MW...because he made his home there for a while. So I hope that context better explains my viewpoint. Be it zany or sensible.

[Kalan]

Robinson's run at Welterweight included some enlightening events.. Robinson was nearly knocked out by Artie Levine, a ham-n-egger.. SRR was decked hard by a big left hook that flopped him like a fish.. SRR wobbled all over when he got up at 9.. The fight would have been stopped today.

In his next fight Robinson fought for a vacant Welterweight Title versus Tommy Bell, 39-10-2, who was not a real good fighter.. Bell decked Robinson hard for a 7-count with a big left hook in the 2nd.. Robinson's propensity to get hit with big shots tells me Leonard would get his gloves on SRR..

I don't remember any Welterweight decking Leonard other than Kevin Howard.. Leonard took the Howard fight after 2 years out of Boxing.. He won the fight, but was so discouraged by his performance that he retired for 3 more years.. Leonard needed a top opponent to inspire him and Hagler did..

Robinson fought Ralph Jones shortly after 2 years off in a Middleweight fight... It was his 2nd fight back and Jones beat the crap out of SRR

I see the Leonard of the Benitez and Hagler fights prevailing versus the Robinson of the Bell and Fullmer 2 fights.

[elmersalsa]

Robinson's run at Welterweight included some enlightening events.. Robinson was nearly knocked out by Artie Levine, a ham-n-egger.. SRR was decked hard by a big left hook that flopped him like a fish.. SRR wobbled all over when he got up at 9.. The fight would have been stopped today.

In his next fight Robinson fought for a vacant Welterweight Title versus Tommy Bell, 39-10-2, who was not a real good fighter.. Bell decked Robinson hard for a 7-count with a big left hook in the 2nd.. Robinson's propensity to get hit with big shots tells me Leonard would get his gloves on SRR..

I don't remember any Welterweight decking Leonard other than Kevin Howard.. Leonard took the Howard fight after 2 years out of Boxing.. He won the fight, but was so discouraged by his performance that he retired for 3 more years.. Leonard needed a top opponent to inspire him and Hagler did..

Robinson fought Ralph Jones shortly after 2 years off in a Middleweight fight... It was his 2nd fight back and Jones beat the crap out of SRR

I see the Leonard of the Benitez and Hagler fights prevailing versus the Robinson of the Bell and Fullmer 2 fights.

At welterweight, Kalan. At welterweight. At middleweight, it would have been another story

[Ambling Alp II]

Robinson's run at Welterweight included some enlightening events.. Robinson was nearly knocked out by Artie Levine, a ham-n-egger.. SRR was decked hard by a big left hook that flopped him like a fish.. SRR wobbled all over when he got up at 9.. The fight would have been stopped today.

In his next fight Robinson fought for a vacant Welterweight Title versus Tommy Bell, 39-10-2, who was not a real good fighter.. Bell decked Robinson hard for a 7-count with a big left hook in the 2nd.. Robinson's propensity to get hit with big shots tells me Leonard would get his gloves on SRR..

I don't remember any Welterweight decking Leonard other than Kevin Howard.. Leonard took the Howard fight after 2 years out of Boxing.. He won the fight, but was so discouraged by his performance that he retired for 3 more years.. Leonard needed a top opponent to inspire him and Hagler did..

Robinson fought Ralph Jones shortly after 2 years off in a Middleweight fight... It was his 2nd fight back and Jones beat the crap out of SRR

I see the Leonard of the Benitez and Hagler fights prevailing versus the Robinson of the Bell and Fullmer 2 fights.

Tommy Bell was a really good fighter. You don't know what you are talking about.
You don't understand win/loss records of the era. Back then, prospects did not automatically start off 20-0 against no-hopers. Contenders actually fought each other. When that happens. someone has to lose and get an "L" on their record.

Jones did not beat the crap out of Robinson. Robinson had one comeback fight after being off for 2 and a half years. That was not anything close to a prime Robinson. Do you realize Robinson already had 130 fights and had 18 fights against Hall of Famers by that point?

Robinson had about 200 fights with many against great competition. So yes, he did get knocked down occasionally.
Leonard did not fight much at middleweight. He did look very good against Hagler. That performance would have beaten some versions of Robinson, but not others.

At WW, Leonard was great. Robinson was a hair better. They were the two best ever at that weight.

[Kalan]

Robinson's run at Welterweight included some enlightening events.. Robinson was nearly knocked out by Artie Levine, a ham-n-egger.. SRR was decked hard by a big left hook that flopped him like a fish.. SRR wobbled all over when he got up at 9.. The fight would have been stopped today.

In his next fight Robinson fought for a vacant Welterweight Title versus Tommy Bell, 39-10-2, who was not a real good fighter.. Bell decked Robinson hard for a 7-count with a big left hook in the 2nd.. Robinson's propensity to get hit with big shots tells me Leonard would get his gloves on SRR..

I don't remember any Welterweight decking Leonard other than Kevin Howard.. Leonard took the Howard fight after 2 years out of Boxing.. He won the fight, but was so discouraged by his performance that he retired for 3 more years.. Leonard needed a top opponent to inspire him and Hagler did..

Robinson fought Ralph Jones shortly after 2 years off in a Middleweight fight... It was his 2nd fight back and Jones beat the crap out of SRR

I see the Leonard of the Benitez and Hagler fights prevailing versus the Robinson of the Bell and Fullmer 2 fights.

Tommy Bell was a really good fighter. You don't know what you are talking about.
You don't understand win/loss records of the era. Back then, prospects did not automatically start off 20-0 against no-hopers. Contenders actually fought each other. When that happens. someone has to lose and get an "L" on their record.

Jones did not beat the crap out of Robinson. Robinson had one comeback fight after being off for 2 and a half years. That was not anything close to a prime Robinson. Do you realize Robinson already had 130 fights and had 18 fights against Hall of Famers by that point?

Robinson had about 200 fights with many against great competition. So yes, he did get knocked down occasionally.
Leonard did not fight much at middleweight. He did look very good against Hagler. That performance would have beaten some versions of Robinson, but not others.

At WW, Leonard was great. Robinson was a hair better. They were the two best ever at that weight.

I can't agree with any of that... Bell habitually carried his left hand low and was easy to hit with rights... Some of his losses where to guys like Cecil Hudson and Ossie Harris. I understand win/loss records of the era.. Bell was picked to fight Robinson for a vacant Welterweight Title for the same reason Jarrod Fletcher was chosen to fight Daniel Jacobs for a vacant Middleweight Title. Bell was easy to beat, in fact SRR had beaten him earlier... Archie Moore fought a lot more fights than Robinson did -- and he also fought much better fighters: Charley Burley, Ezzard Charles X 3, Harold Johnson X 5, Jimmy Bivins, Marciano, Patterson and Ali... Robinson never fought a single great boxer while Moore fought several of them -- differentiating between "great boxer" and "great fighter" because the latter term is thrown around extremely loosely.

[Ambling Alp II]

Bell was not easy to beat. Look at the 10 losses that you mentioned earlier. 4 were in the first few months of his career. Two were to middleweight Jake LaMotta. Another was to Robinson.

Obviously Archie was a great fighter. He did not beat better fighters than Robinson. Take a look at who Robinson beat sometime.
Moore had some great wins no doubt about it; he also lost to every single guy that you mentioned that he fought, and to several others.

Robinson never beat a great "boxer"? Seriously? Ever heard of Kid Gavilan? Sammy Angott?

[aajayunlimited]

Prime for prime: Leonard had already fought and beat Hearns who was more than a great sparing partner for Robinson but he was 90% as good. Offensively, he was almost a clone. Hearns was more accurate while Robinson was a better counterpuncher. I think Hearns was faster with his typical offense. Hearns--when he met Leonard for the 1st time--even looked like a great dancer for about 5 rds. Robinson had primitive footwork and fighters tracked him down by midfight. Robinson had no frame of reference for Leonard--who could be Ali or Tyson at any time(with even better combination ability with Joe Frazier equivalent power as a smaller fighter). Who in the 40s or 50s could prepare SRR for that onslaught? Leonard would be going up under punches whenever he was motivated to do so. Which for some reason is not all that often. Against Hearns, he should have went after him every other round. Angelo was not the right trainer for a hybrid fighter. Ali was not known as puncher and Dundee was dealing with a specialist. Angelo should have told SRL after rd 6, when he saw that boxing was not working against the longer armed and historically fast Hearns and after he saw that Leonard could get to Hearns and hurt him badly every time he really tried, to pace himself but to go hard! If Leonard does that against Robinson, it's a TKO by rd 12. If he doesn't, then I think he'll have 6 rds to end it and it's my belief that he will.

[Kalan]

Bell was not easy to beat. Look at the 10 losses that you mentioned earlier. 4 were in the first few months of his career. Two were to middleweight Jake LaMotta. Another was to Robinson.

Obviously Archie was a great fighter. He did not beat better fighters than Robinson. Take a look at who Robinson beat sometime.
Moore had some great wins no doubt about it; he also lost to every single guy that you mentioned that he fought, and to several others.

Robinson never beat a great "boxer"? Seriously? Ever heard of Kid Gavilan? Sammy Angott?

I heard of them... and they weren't great... and they were a lot smaller and shorter than Robinson.. Ezzard Charles was a great Light Heavyweight... as was Harold Johnson who Moore beat 4 times.. Robinson never fought anyone to equal Johnson.. Lloyd Marshall and Holman Williams were very good...if not great.. Moore beat them both and I don't see anyone that good who Robinson beat.

[Nile4000]

Prime for prime: Leonard had already fought and beat Hearns who was more than a great sparing partner for Robinson but he was 90% as good. Offensively, he was almost a clone. Hearns was more accurate while Robinson was a better counterpuncher. I think Hearns was faster with his typical offense. Hearns--when he met Leonard for the 1st time--even looked like a great dancer for about 5 rds. Robinson had primitive footwork and fighters tracked him down by midfight. Robinson had no frame of reference for Leonard--who could be Ali or Tyson at any time(with even better combination ability with Joe Frazier equivalent power as a smaller fighter). Who in the 40s or 50s could prepare SRR for that onslaught? Leonard would be going up under punches whenever he was motivated to do so. Which for some reason is not all that often. Against Hearns, he should have went after him every other round. Angelo was not the right trainer for a hybrid fighter. Ali was not known as puncher and Dundee was dealing with a specialist. Angelo should have told SRL after rd 6, when he saw that boxing was not working against the longer armed and historically fast Hearns and after he saw that Leonard could get to Hearns and hurt him badly every time he really tried, to pace himself but to go hard! If Leonard does that against Robinson, it's a TKO by rd 12. If he doesn't, then I think he'll have 6 rds to end it and it's my belief that he will.

Great point about Leonard-Hearns I. Always felt that Ray could have won that fight earlier. As far as SRR and SRL, it would've been close, with Robinson winning 8-7. Couldn't see Robinson losing to Montreal Duran like Leonard did. He should've rematched Tiger Jones.

[elmersalsa]

Prime for prime: Leonard had already fought and beat Hearns who was more than a great sparing partner for Robinson but he was 90% as good. Offensively, he was almost a clone. Hearns was more accurate while Robinson was a better counterpuncher. I think Hearns was faster with his typical offense. Hearns--when he met Leonard for the 1st time--even looked like a great dancer for about 5 rds. Robinson had primitive footwork and fighters tracked him down by midfight. Robinson had no frame of reference for Leonard--who could be Ali or Tyson at any time(with even better combination ability with Joe Frazier equivalent power as a smaller fighter). Who in the 40s or 50s could prepare SRR for that onslaught? Leonard would be going up under punches whenever he was motivated to do so. Which for some reason is not all that often. Against Hearns, he should have went after him every other round. Angelo was not the right trainer for a hybrid fighter. Ali was not known as puncher and Dundee was dealing with a specialist. Angelo should have told SRL after rd 6, when he saw that boxing was not working against the longer armed and historically fast Hearns and after he saw that Leonard could get to Hearns and hurt him badly every time he really tried, to pace himself but to go hard! If Leonard does that against Robinson, it's a TKO by rd 12. If he doesn't, then I think he'll have 6 rds to end it and it's my belief that he will.

Great point about Leonard-Hearns I. Always felt that Ray could have won that fight earlier. As far as SRR and SRL, it would've been close, with Robinson winning 8-7. Couldn't see Robinson losing to Montreal Duran like Leonard did. He should've rematched Tiger Jones.

The Duran in Montreal also whups SRR. At welterweight, Duran and Leonard beat SRR. Robinson beats both of them at middleweight.

[Kalan]

Sugar Ray Robinson has a lot of characteristics like Tommy Hearns(very fast power punching from a boxer's stance) who Leonard walked through his punches and beat. SRR's movement was more primitive--good fighters tracked him down by midfight. SRR takes a far better punch than Hearns and occassionally counterpunched with huge punches. Leonard was probably the best speedy combination fighter in history--even better than Ali: 15+ blinding, very good punch combinations. Leonard has those short arms that allow him to go underneath SRR long reach, as a power fighter would! Leonard had better competition than SRR; although, Robinson beat great fighters when he was older(making you revisit the younger Robinson). Who wins?

Leonard didn't even have the fastest combinations of his day -- but he definitely was a superior boxer to Robinson.

Before Tommy Hearns emptied his gas tank in their 1st fight (because Tommy was overly dehydrated and super skinny)...he built a very nice points lead with quicker hands and feet, allowing him to dominate Leonard from long range... Tommy battered SRL's right eye, leading to career problems for Leonard... It's possible to beat a very fast fisted and taller boxer from the outset -- like Lomachenko did to Walters with brilliant combinations and much better connect and evasion ratios.. Roy Jones also had faster combinations and was harder punching P4P than Leonard... Roy lacked Leonard's jab, balance, stance, footwork, dexterity, and overall technical game... But Roy was fast and strong, and he could crack combos.

Robinson was a 2-Division World Champion... Leonard was ostensibly a 5-Division World Champion, though I've questioned his Light Heavyweight claim.

Leonard fell off much faster than Robinson -- he was washed up at 34..But at his very peak SRL was a much better Welterweight.. Leonard got careless once against Kevin Howard, getting dropped -- and got decked by Hearns -- but nobody the caliber of Levine or Castellani would put Leonard down for 9-counts like they did Robinson.. Nobody as bad as Graziano, Bell, or LaMotta would floor Leonard like they did Robinson.. Nobody as unskilled as Ralph Jones would dominate Leonard over 10 rounds.. If you're talking peak boxer vs peak boxer you have to go with Leonard.

[Nile4000]

Prime for prime: Leonard had already fought and beat Hearns who was more than a great sparing partner for Robinson but he was 90% as good. Offensively, he was almost a clone. Hearns was more accurate while Robinson was a better counterpuncher. I think Hearns was faster with his typical offense. Hearns--when he met Leonard for the 1st time--even looked like a great dancer for about 5 rds. Robinson had primitive footwork and fighters tracked him down by midfight. Robinson had no frame of reference for Leonard--who could be Ali or Tyson at any time(with even better combination ability with Joe Frazier equivalent power as a smaller fighter). Who in the 40s or 50s could prepare SRR for that onslaught? Leonard would be going up under punches whenever he was motivated to do so. Which for some reason is not all that often. Against Hearns, he should have went after him every other round. Angelo was not the right trainer for a hybrid fighter. Ali was not known as puncher and Dundee was dealing with a specialist. Angelo should have told SRL after rd 6, when he saw that boxing was not working against the longer armed and historically fast Hearns and after he saw that Leonard could get to Hearns and hurt him badly every time he really tried, to pace himself but to go hard! If Leonard does that against Robinson, it's a TKO by rd 12. If he doesn't, then I think he'll have 6 rds to end it and it's my belief that he will.

Great point about Leonard-Hearns I. Always felt that Ray could have won that fight earlier. As far as SRR and SRL, it would've been close, with Robinson winning 8-7. Couldn't see Robinson losing to Montreal Duran like Leonard did. He should've rematched Tiger Jones.

The Duran in Montreal also whups SRR. At welterweight, Duran and Leonard beat SRR. Robinson beats both of them at middleweight.

Duran tries to get in close to Robinson, he is going to taste some leather, and possibly get knocked out. Robinson wouldn't be intimidated and punked like Leonard was, he would wear Duran out late, like in 13 rounds. But, yeah, Robinson beats both of them at middleweight.

[APerno]

Duran tries to get in close to Robinson, he is going to taste some leather, and possibly get knocked out. Robinson wouldn't be intimidated and punked like Leonard was, . . .

What is it about Robinson that makes you think he couldn't be punked, but SRL could be? I wonder if that wasn't how LaMotta beat SRR the first time, by bullying him.

[Kalan]

Duran tries to get in close to Robinson, he is going to taste some leather, and possibly get knocked out. Robinson wouldn't be intimidated and punked like Leonard was, he would wear Duran out late, like in 13 rounds. But, yeah, Robinson beats both of them at middleweight.

Robinson wasn't a good enough boxer to beat either Leonard or Duran.. One of the things fans miss is that fact that 75% of SRR's opponents were C-level non-title opponents.. Both Leonard and Duran beat opponents with A-plus level boxing skills -- and Robinson never beat a single super slick boxer. He ducked the best.

Duran beat: Estaban DeJesus and Ray Leonard... Leonard beat: Roberto Duran and a 39-0 Wilfredo Benitez... Robinson beat:? ? ? ? ? ! ? ! ? ? ? ! ? ? ! ! ! ! ? ? ?

Now Robinson lost about every round to Ralph Jones, who was 0-5 in his previous 5 fights ... I don't think Leonard or Duran were capable of doing that.

[APerno]

Duran tries to get in close to Robinson, he is going to taste some leather, and possibly get knocked out. Robinson wouldn't be intimidated and punked like Leonard was, he would wear Duran out late, like in 13 rounds. But, yeah, Robinson beats both of them at middleweight.

Robinson wasn't a good enough boxer to beat either Leonard or Duran.. One of the things fans miss is that fact that 75% of SRR's opponents were C-level non-title opponents.. Both Leonard and Duran beat opponents with A-plus level boxing skills -- and Robinson never beat a single super slick boxer. He ducked the best.

Duran beat: Estaban DeJesus and Ray Leonard... Leonard beat: Roberto Duran and a 39-0 Wilfredo Benitez... Robinson beat:? ? ? ? ? ! ? ! ? ? ? ! ? ? ! ! ! ! ? ? ?

Now Robinson lost about every round to Ralph Jones, who was 0-5 in his previous 5 fights ... I don't think Leonard or Duran were capable of doing that.

I agree with most of what you usually say about SRR (overrated***) - but I think you (unfairly) use his later career as juxtaposition against Duran and Leonard when they were in their prime - I agree, as I stated in Crease's polls, that SRL would have taken SRR (UD) - but I feel that evaluation should be based on SRR's career between 1947-1953 - that's the SRR Leonard would have had to deal with, and that guy was a great fighter; anything involving SRR after '55 shouldn't be part of a Leonard-Robinson equation - so I think.

*** 'overrated' simply because too many people say he was the 'greatest ever' - the moment that word 'ever' shows up you know you're listening to hyperbole.

[elmersalsa]

Great point about Leonard-Hearns I. Always felt that Ray could have won that fight earlier. As far as SRR and SRL, it would've been close, with Robinson winning 8-7. Couldn't see Robinson losing to Montreal Duran like Leonard did. He should've rematched Tiger Jones.

The Duran in Montreal also whups SRR. At welterweight, Duran and Leonard beat SRR. Robinson beats both of them at middleweight.

Duran tries to get in close to Robinson, he is going to taste some leather, and possibly get knocked out. Robinson wouldn't be intimidated and punked like Leonard was, he would wear Duran out late, like in 13 rounds. But, yeah, Robinson beats both of them at middleweight.

You haven't seen the Hands of Stone fight. It's obvious. The Duran in Montreal had the INTENSITY few match. And by the way, he was so complete in his game. Leonard and Duran were more complete boxers than the original Sugar Ray.

One thing you and I agreed that at 160lbs and beyond, it would be all Sugar Ray Robinson. Leonard and Duran were not that good above welterweight.

[Nile4000]

Duran tries to get in close to Robinson, he is going to taste some leather, and possibly get knocked out. Robinson wouldn't be intimidated and punked like Leonard was, . . .

What is it about Robinson that makes you think he couldn't be punked, but SRL could be? I wonder if that wasn't how LaMotta beat SRR the first time, by bullying him.

Here is the thing about Ray Robinson. He had a certain toughness to him. He could deal. Ray Leonard is a great fighter, but he had a certain b****ness to him, Duran literally scared him. And even though it's not his fault that Duran came in out of shape in the second fight, a certain part of him was relieved that that wasn't Montreal Duran. I hope Leonard was telling the truth about what happened to him at 19, it would be bad to lie about something like that.