Prime Sugar Ray Robinson VS Prime SR Leonard

[Nile4000]

Duran tries to get in close to Robinson, he is going to taste some leather, and possibly get knocked out. Robinson wouldn't be intimidated and punked like Leonard was, he would wear Duran out late, like in 13 rounds. But, yeah, Robinson beats both of them at middleweight.

Robinson wasn't a good enough boxer to beat either Leonard or Duran.. One of the things fans miss is that fact that 75% of SRR's opponents were C-level non-title opponents.. Both Leonard and Duran beat opponents with A-plus level boxing skills -- and Robinson never beat a single super slick boxer. He ducked the best.

Duran beat: Estaban DeJesus and Ray Leonard... Leonard beat: Roberto Duran and a 39-0 Wilfredo Benitez... Robinson beat:? ? ? ? ? ! ? ! ? ? ? ! ? ? ! ! ! ! ? ? ?

Now Robinson lost about every round to Ralph Jones, who was 0-5 in his previous 5 fights ... I don't think Leonard or Duran were capable of doing that.

Who did Robinson duck? Because he had more than enough to deal with Leonard and Duran.

[Kalan]

Robinson ducked a rematch with Ralph Jones and fights with ATG's Charlie Burley and Archie Moore.. He fought the slow and punchess Maxim no problem.

elmersalsa... The important thing to me is Robinson never faced a Welterweight the caliber of Leonard or Duran -- and Leonard and Duran faced each other -- and Leonard also beat Bentiez and Hearns -- Duran didn't beat them but he fought them.. Robinson risked nobody who was a super good boxer.

The Welterweight class when Robinson fought 5 Title Defenses at 147 was a very weak.. They only Welterweight challenger Robinson faced who gained any notoriety was Kid Gavilan -- who didn't have a lot of punching power (20% KO ratio) and I had Carmen Basilio doing enough to beat him.. Gavilan lost 30 fights -- and to put that into perspective, Leonard won 36 fights.

Robinson fought 5 times as many fights as Leonard.. Mostly 3rd rate fighters, but most fighters didn't prosper from having that many fights -- including SRR.. Archie Moore was one of the very few who thrived on a brutal schedule of fights.. Archie frequently over-matched himself with guys like Burley, Bivins, Charles, Marciano, Patterson, and Ali.. Moore was badly beaten, knocked down over 30 times and once knocked cold twice in one night.. I wonder if Archie even gave a thought to any of that -- or the fact that most fighters who endured such a career would be seeing and talking to tweety birds much of the time.

[Kalan]

No it's not... The fight was in all the papers. Robinson even insinuated he would do it. It was a massive money fight -- as was the Robinson-Maxim rematch.

In the end Robbie didn't want to do that one either... He was more selective than Mayweather about who he fought.

[APerno]

I hope Leonard was telling the truth about what happened to him at 19, it would be bad to lie about something like that.

You have peaked my interest - could you share that story with me - I never heard it?

[Kalan]

Leonard would beat Robinson with ease...

Leonard had a better defense, better speed, better technique, and superior punch resistance to Robinson.. Leonard beat a better Middleweight in Marvin Hagler than Robinson ever fought... When you look at Robinson getting beaten by super hittable guys like Gene Fullmer, Carmen Basilio, Randy Turpin, and Ralph Jones---and getting floored by Artie Levine.. Jake LaMotta.. Tommy Bell.. and Rocky Graziano.. you know the much more deceptive and sharper punching Sugar Ray Leonard would have ripped Robinson a new one.

You missed the key argument here, which surprises me.

Robinson was a mediocre swimmer and a crappy rebounder, whereas Leonard once got 8 rebounds in a pickup game and used to swim every summer on family holidays to Florida

I think its therefore quite clear that Leonard wins

There's a yawing space between your ears that needs examining. If Rocky Castlellani decks you for a 9-count with a left hook, that reflects on your defense in Boxing not Basketball. Neither Robinson nor Leonard were going to make the NBA in a million years -- to say nothing of the Olympic Water Polo team.

[Counter-puncher]

[Nile4000]

I hope Leonard was telling the truth about what happened to him at 19, it would be bad to lie about something like that.

You have peaked my interest - could you share that story with me - I never heard it?

When Ray was 19, a prominent Olympic coach put his mouth on his penis while they were in the car. Without looking at the coach, Ray got out of the car and ran. A few years earlier at a boxing event in Utica, New York, the same coach had Ray, at 15, and another fighter take a hot bath with Epsom salt while the coach sat on the other side of the bathroom. They thought that something was wrong, but didn't want to question a strong male authority figure. Leonard also said that some other fighters were molested by this coach. Sad, if it's true.

[APerno]

I hope Leonard was telling the truth about what happened to him at 19, it would be bad to lie about something like that.

You have peaked my interest - could you share that story with me - I never heard it?

When Ray was 19, a prominent Olympic coach put his mouth on his penis while they were in the car. Without looking at the coach, Ray got out of the car and ran. A few years earlier at a boxing event in Utica, New York, the same coach had Ray, at 15, and another fighter take a hot bath with Epsom salt while the coach sat on the other side of the bathroom. They thought that something was wrong, but didn't want to question a strong male authority figure. Leonard also said that some other fighters were molested by this coach. Sad, if it's true.

Thanks - sad! - didn't see that coming - thought it was a boxing anecdote.

[Kalan]

Something like that happens to most attractive young adolescents and teenagers... Some authoritative male figure hits on them.. It's a shame but children have to be warned about behavior like this when they're 8 or 10 years old and even younger.. "There's a lot of sex perverts out there who at one time or another will try to seduce, molest, or do worse to you. Most all of them are homosexual men. They're all dangerous. Here's how you handle them."

Once a classmate was walking home from school and a car stopped and the driver called out to her, "Your mother's been in an accident. She sent me to pick you up. Get in quickly because she's waiting." She ran away screaming bloody murder because it was just as she'd been warned about. The driver sped off and she didn't get his license.

I was hit on a number of times by perverts as a teenager. I didn’t have any problems because I’d been warned about it and knew to deflect it and get away. It’s a sick world out there. I enjoy the world and people of all kinds, but so many people have personal issues that it's amazing.

[elmersalsa]

Like you have said before:

At welterweight, I pick The Hands of Stone or Sugar Ray to beat the original Sugar Man. Those two were better skilled and more complete boxers than Robinson in my book.

At middleweight, I pick Robinson over Duran and Leonard. Why? Because Robby showed at that weight that he was better than Duran and Leonard. Duran nor Leonard were not that good above welterweight.

That is the same case scenario why I would pick the great Tommy Hearns over Leonard and Duran above welterweight in a match anytime. The weight favors The Hitman. The Hitman won't beat the original Sugar Ray at 147, 154 nor at 160lbs, but, I see him beating Robinson at 175lbs and beyond.

I saw the Hearns vs Randy Shields fight and it convinced me that at 147lbs, if you pass the 5th round, you beat the Hitman. Hearns legs weren't that strong at that weight.

[Bworsley]

Sugar ray Robinson all the way

[Kalan]

Like you have said before:

At welterweight, I pick The Hands of Stone or Sugar Ray to beat the original Sugar Man. Those two were better skilled and more complete boxers than Robinson in my book.

At middleweight, I pick Robinson over Duran and Leonard. Why? Because Robby showed at that weight that he was better than Duran and Leonard. Duran nor Leonard were not that good above welterweight.

That is the same case scenario why I would pick the great Tommy Hearns over Leonard and Duran above welterweight in a match anytime. The weight favors The Hitman. The Hitman won't beat the original Sugar Ray at 147, 154 nor at 160lbs, but, I see him beating Robinson at 175lbs and beyond.

I saw the Hearns vs Randy Shields fight and it convinced me that at 147lbs, if you pass the 5th round, you beat the Hitman. Hearns legs weren't that strong at that weight.

Randy Shields was pretty damned inept and took a beating from Hearns in that "fight." Plus Shields advertised a shoulder injury during the fight, massaging his shoulder during the rounds, "WOE is ME!!!! Look at this, my shoulder is hurting -- no wonder I can't fight." ... Who does that but a loser???

But I'm not sure Hearns beats Robinson at 175 or any weight... Because Barkley beat Hearns at 175 and he was worse than Maxim... Barkley got Tommy with right hands shots.. Hearns was a lot faster afoot than Robinson. He had a better jab and straight right and could box better...but he had little discipline and he liked to trade punches -- you have to factor that in... Robinson didn't have much, but he did have a chin and decent punching power. He might have caught Tommy like Hagler did. Marvin wasn't real big or strong, but he was a tough guy, very rugged. Hearns never wanted a fight with Reggie Johnson, Mike McCallum, James Toney, or Nigel Benn.. Hearns didn't like to fight tough, strong guys -- and Robinson did have the warrior spirit.

I still go with Leonard or Duran out-boxing Robinson at Welterweight or Middleweight like they did Hagler and Barkley. If Basilio were just a little better boxer he would have beaten Robinson in both their fights, because at least Basilio was a good thinker.