Primo Carnera vs Vitali Klitschko

[Kalan]

Sanders wasn’t 40 when he fought Vitali. He was barely 38 -- so stop lying and fudging stats.

Corrie “nearly” decked Vitali??? … Vitali was a 3 X Heavyweight Champion and was NEVER knocked down in his entire boxing career -- fighting to age 41... In sharp contrast, Joe Louis was decked 12 times — by folks like Tony Galento — and the Brown Bomber fought to the age of 37.. Louis weighed 198 but decked Baer 3 times and stopped him in 4 rounds.. Louis had been fighting pro for a very short time, so his skills became top-notch in a hurry -- amazingly enough.

And the problem with your other analysis is – in his previous fight to Vitali, Corrie Sanders decked ATG Heavyweight Champion Wladimir Klitschko, 40-1, (who went 6'6" X 245) 4 X and obliterated the Ukrainian in 2 rounds.. Sanders was bigger and taller than Baer (6'4" X 235) and generally faced bigger and more dangerous Heavyweights than Baer. Dozens of Baer's opponents weighed in the 160's, 170's 180's and 190's. Sanders had better KO and winning ratios than Baer facing real Heavyweights almost every time.

Sanders was objectively a better and quicker handed boxer than Baer, who was a raw swinger... Max's loss to Uzcudun was his 5th defeat in 9 fights.. And after the 2 biggest victories of his life over the undersized Schmeling and plodding slowpoke Carnera – Baer promptly lost his next 2 fights to Braddock and Louis – who both weighed under 200 pounds.. Joe Louis—who had been a professional boxer for 14 months at that point, gave up height, size, and reach to Baer—but boxed and jabbed the crap out of Max, making him quit in 4 rounds — NOT a display of heart or competence by Baer.

The other fact is that Carnera was an incompetent boxer himself. Baer caught him with loaded swings. Baer certainly couldn’t hit Louis, Braddock, or a prime Loughran with loaded shots like that. Vitali Klitschko became a 3 X Heavyweight Champion because his defense was outstanding. Unlike Baer and even Louis, he rarely got hit with a telling blow.

[Tuan_Jim]

The impenetrable Vitali Klitschko! Chin of iron! Until a ragged old fat man, swinging from his hips, lands one. And is that a knockdown I see?



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dwxM9OaJ_N4

[Kalan]

You picked out an instance where Vitali slipped... You're looking for a chink in the armor of a man who was never floored or behind on points after any fight.

Why didn't you pick out the 3 times a tyro named Louis decked Max Baer???

Why didn't you pick out the time Tony Galento floored Joe Louis??? Or Braddock decked him... Or Schmeling decked him... Or Buddy Baer decked him???

Why didn't you pick out the time old Light Heavyweight Archie Moore decked Rocky Marciano??? ... Or old Joe Walcott decked him (both older than Sanders)

Why didn't you pick out the time Sanders floored Wladimir Klitschko, 40-1, 4 times and the referee saved Wlad's life???

Why didn't you pick out the time Jeffries hit the deck against Johnson???

EVERYBODY who held a Heavyweight Championship for longer than 1 defense has hit the deck at some point -- cept Vitali Klitschko!!!!

[HyacinthusTurnipseed]

Cosmetically Vitali and Carnera have a somewhat similar style - big ol' lummox, body leaning far away from the opponent, slow and often under-leveraged punches, quite quick moving backwards in short bursts. That's where the comparisons end though for me.

Watching the Baer fight again I see a guy who even when he gets back in the fight mid-rounds shows so little ability in terms of cutting the ring off (Baer just casually strolls away from a following PC until he feels like hitting him again), putting punches together regularly or just any kind of meaningful ring generalship that it is hard to see what he is doing that is actually effective other than fighting someone who is taking it easy for a few rounds and throwing the odd cluster of jabs. Contrast with Vitali even in a short fight like vs Hide (who brings a lot of quick and sudden ferocity to a fight even if nothing else), VK is able to fairly quickly gain control over him and in the second round is setting him up with hand and foot feints for an (admittedly tame) KO finish.

I don't see what Carnera can do to deal with a guy who can throw more punches, control a fight better, move better and is more durable generally. Certainly he can't turn himself into Lennox Lewis in any way at all, nor could he rely on being much naturally stronger than VK.

But I will admit that my opinion of PC is based on the footage of the Baer, Louis and Sharkey II fights mostly. If there is anything out there that shows him fighting more effectively I'm willing to reconsider. I don't think Vitali is automatically unbeatable though he would be hard to beat for anyone on his best night and too hard for a guy like Carnera as I see him right now.

[DaveyMac]

Sanders wasn’t 40 when he fought Vitali. He was barely 38 -- so stop lying and fudging stats.

Corrie “nearly” decked Vitali??? … Vitali was a 3 X Heavyweight Champion and was NEVER knocked down in his entire boxing career -- fighting to age 41... In sharp contrast, Joe Louis was decked 12 times — by folks like Tony Galento — and the Brown Bomber fought to the age of 37.. Louis weighed 198 but decked Baer 3 times and stopped him in 4 rounds.. Louis had been fighting pro for a very short time, so his skills became top-notch in a hurry -- amazingly enough.

And the problem with your other analysis is – in his previous fight to Vitali, Corrie Sanders decked ATG Heavyweight Champion Wladimir Klitschko, 40-1, (who went 6'6" X 245) 4 X and obliterated the Ukrainian in 2 rounds.. Sanders was bigger and taller than Baer (6'4" X 235) and generally faced bigger and more dangerous Heavyweights than Baer. Dozens of Baer's opponents weighed in the 160's, 170's 180's and 190's. Sanders had better KO and winning ratios than Baer facing real Heavyweights almost every time.

Sanders was objectively a better and quicker handed boxer than Baer, who was a raw swinger... Max's loss to Uzcudun was his 5th defeat in 9 fights.. And after the 2 biggest victories of his life over the undersized Schmeling and plodding slowpoke Carnera – Baer promptly lost his next 2 fights to Braddock and Louis – who both weighed under 200 pounds.. Joe Louis—who had been a professional boxer for 14 months at that point, gave up height, size, and reach to Baer—but boxed and jabbed the crap out of Max, making him quit in 4 rounds — NOT a display of heart or competence by Baer.

The other fact is that Carnera was an incompetent boxer himself. Baer caught him with loaded swings. Baer certainly couldn’t hit Louis, Braddock, or a prime Loughran with loaded shots like that. Vitali Klitschko became a 3 X Heavyweight Champion because his defense was outstanding. Unlike Baer and even Louis, he rarely got hit with a telling blow.

Did you just say Corrie Sanders was better than Max Baer?

[Kalan]

Sanders had much quicker of hands and feet than Baer... Better KO ratio... Better win ratio... Better best win: Wladimir Klitschko, 40-1... Much better defense.

Baer's loss to Uzcudun was his 5 defeat in 9 fights -- his previous fight he lost to Johnny Risko, 47-31-6.. After he beat Carnera he promptly lost his next 2 fights.

[gp.]

It depends who went to Klitschko's training camp before the fight, how big the wad of cash was in one hand and how big the gun was in the other.

[Ambling Alp II]

Cosmetically Vitali and Carnera have a somewhat similar style - big ol' lummox, body leaning far away from the opponent, slow and often under-leveraged punches, quite quick moving backwards in short bursts. That's where the comparisons end though for me.

Watching the Baer fight again I see a guy who even when he gets back in the fight mid-rounds shows so little ability in terms of cutting the ring off (Baer just casually strolls away from a following PC until he feels like hitting him again), putting punches together regularly or just any kind of meaningful ring generalship that it is hard to see what he is doing that is actually effective other than fighting someone who is taking it easy for a few rounds and throwing the odd cluster of jabs. Contrast with Vitali even in a short fight like vs Hide (who brings a lot of quick and sudden ferocity to a fight even if nothing else), VK is able to fairly quickly gain control over him and in the second round is setting him up with hand and foot feints for an (admittedly tame) KO finish.

I don't see what Carnera can do to deal with a guy who can throw more punches, control a fight better, move better and is more durable generally. Certainly he can't turn himself into Lennox Lewis in any way at all, nor could he rely on being much naturally stronger than VK.

But I will admit that my opinion of PC is based on the footage of the Baer, Louis and Sharkey II fights mostly. If there is anything out there that shows him fighting more effectively I'm willing to reconsider. I don't think Vitali is automatically unbeatable though he would be hard to beat for anyone on his best night and too hard for a guy like Carnera as I see him right now.

Just wanted to address your main points why you would favor Klitschko:
Carnera threw about as many punches in a fight as Klitschko did.
Klitschko "controlled fights" against terrible fighters. So did Carnera when he fought weak competition.
Klitschko moved better? They both were built like statues but less mobile.
Klitschko was more durable? He had two fights that meant anything. One he quit and the other he got stopped.

No Carnera could not just rely on being stronger. Neither could Klitschko.

The footage against Baer, Sharkey, and Louis are certainly worth watching. He has other fights on Youtube was well.
He actually did pretty well against Louis. Lots other guys guys did not do as well against Louis.
Worth mentioning that Carnera severely hurt his ankle in the Baer fight. Yet he kept going and didn't quit.

[Tuan_Jim]

I had to chuckle when he said 'but Primo didn't look good against Sharkey, Baer and Louis.' Three guys better than anyone Vitali ever fought, bar a very old Lennox Lewis.

I can't think of any injury that would make Primo quit on his stool against Chris Byrd. I don't see anyone - ANYONE - Vitali beat that Primo wouldn't.

[Kalan]

Carnera threw about as many punches in a fight as Klitschko did.
Klitschko "controlled fights" against terrible fighters. So did Carnera when he fought weak competition.
Klitschko moved better? They both were built like statues but less mobile.
Klitschko was more durable? He had two fights that meant anything. One he quit and the other he got stopped.

No Carnera could not just rely on being stronger. Neither could Klitschko.

The footage against Baer, Sharkey, and Louis are certainly worth watching. He has other fights on Youtube was well.
He actually did pretty well against Louis. Lots other guys guys did not do as well against Louis.
Worth mentioning that Carnera severely hurt his ankle in the Baer fight. Yet he kept going and didn't quit.

The way you analyze fights is beyond imagination Ambling Alp II... Carnera did "pretty well" against LOUIS???? LMAO!! How do you figure dude????

Louis was a neophyte who had 19 fights. Louis was a pro boxer for LESS THAN ONE (1) YEAR when he fought Carnera... Yet Louis smashed Primo out quickly, knocking him down 3 times and battering him into a defenseless battered hulk... That is NOT preforming well on Primo's part.

Louis gave up 64.5 pounds of weight to Primo, as well as massive height, reach, and experience to the Italian---who had 89 fights.. That's enough fights to become a master boxer if you tried extra hard.. Carnera was in his 7th year as a professional and still telegraphed punches like a novice. Louis was smooth as silk in direct comparison.. Primo didn't really care about Boxing or being a great boxer.. He couldn't hit Louis with a single telling blow..

Schmeling was able to knock Louis cold when Joe had much more experience... Schmeling did pretty well NOT Carnera... Do you see the difference????

Maybe you believe all the guys who Vitali Klitschko beat were terrible fighters because you're such an inept judge of boxer's performances. The first thing you should do to correct this -- is be more objective and quit putting fighters into boxes based on what era they fought in.

[Kalan]

I can't think of any injury that would make Primo quit on his stool against Chris Byrd

Carnera didn't HAVE to be injured to quit.. He turned his back on Leroy Haynes http://boxrec.com/media/index.php?title=Fight:91846 because he didn't want to fight -- and forced the referee to stop the fight.. Primo did his Marc Gastineau turn your back impression.. In case you don't click the link: "Haynes battered Carnera again in the 3rd round, and eventually Carnera turned his back to Haynes, prompting referee Adgie to intervene"

Vitali would have smashed Haynes out faster than he did Herbie Hide... After battering and stopping the inept Carnera TWICE, Haynes lost 17 of his next 27 fights -- including 2 of his next 3 fights... Haynes' whole career was spotted with losses -- and he was typical of the many guys who smashed Carnera.

[cfang]

primo was a rubbish fighter and champion. He had size and rumours of mafia connections and that was about it. Louis destroyed him as did baer. VK would have wiped the floor with him. I'm with Kalan on this...it must be true! lol

[Ambling Alp II]

The mafia thing is way overblown. He had some fight early in his career that were the other fighter was paid to lay down in an early round. fighters that he would probably would have stopped in a later round anyway. He had legitimate wins over Uzcudun, Sharkey and Loughran. He is the only really big man that anyone can come up with that actually beat a great fighter under 200 pounds in an actual fight.

He was not destroyed by Louis. He made it to the 6th round and landed several good shots.
He was not destroyed by Baer. He fought most of the fight on a badly injured ankle and somehow managed to make it to the 11th round. He actually won some rounds in that fight.
He fought a lot of good fighters and sometimes won and sometimes lost.

Klitschko beat stiffs and lost to an out of shape Lewis and Chris Byrd. How impressive.

[Kalan]

He is the only really big man ... [who] actually beat a great fighter under 200 pounds in an actual fight.

He was not destroyed by Louis. He made it to the 6th round and landed several good shots.
He was not destroyed by Baer. He fought most of the fight on a badly injured ankle and somehow managed to make it to the 11th round. He actually won some rounds in that fight.
He fought a lot of good fighters and sometimes won and sometimes lost.

Klitschko beat stiffs and lost to an out of shape Lewis and Chris Byrd. How impressive.

Jack Sharkey was NOT a great fighter. HIs career was dotted with losses and he performed like a ham-n-egger most of the time.. Lennox Lewis, Wladimir Klitschko, and Vitali Klitschko beat 4 great Cruiserweight Champions: Evander Holyfield, David Haye, Tomasz Adamek, and Juan Carlos Gomez.. Holyfield was 36-3-1 for Lewis.. Haye was 25-1 for Klitschko... Adamek was 44-1 for Vitali, was a 2-division World Champion, and had never been stopped. Vitali got rid of him without losing a round.. Juan Carlos Gomez was 44-1 when he fought Vitali -- and very easily dispatched.

Compare those records to Sharkey who was 35-8-2 and lost to guys nobody ever heard of.. He couldn't box half as well as the 4 Cruiserweights above.

Joe Louis as a great fighter when he fought Carnera, but very inexperienced at 19-0 and with less than a year experience in the professional ranks.. Louis ripped away at Carnera like he was Buddy Baer.. The younger Baer was one of the worst boxers I've ever seen on film. He was worse than Carnera and even worse than Willard.. He seemed to think boxing was the art of absorbing punches to see who could take the most and hardest shots. Carnera would get discouraged against an opponent like Louis and go down like a wounded animal.. Max had some dignity about it.. Buddy took shots til he was knocked cold.

Max Bear was a swinger who could take a heavy punch.. He couldn't take them from Louis.. But at least he didn't get up 3 times like Carnera did.. He couldn't box any better than Carnera, but he used a little discretion and stayed on one knee throughout the last count.. When reporters questioned his integrity Max said "A few bucks entitles these people to see a fight.. They saw one.. If they want to see a murder they'll have to pay a lot more." ... A rare honest man.

[Kalan]

Unlike the BS Ambling Alp puts out -- Vitali Klitscho's list victims as he became a 3-time Heavyweight Champion included some very good fighters.

Chris Arreola was 27-0 when he fought Vitali, and thought by some Latino writers to be a great Heavyweight. Vitali dominated and stopped him.
Sam Peter was a 30-1 Heavyweight Champion who'd never been stopped and only beaten once by Wladimir Klitschko. Vitali wasted him in 7.
Kirk Johnson was 34-1, lost one fight by DQ, and was never stopped... VK put him out in 2 rounds.
Vaughan Bean was 42-2 and had never been stopped. Vitali stopped him..
Larry Donald was 39-2 and had never been stopped.. Vitali stopped him..
Timo Hoffman was 22-0 and Vitali beat him very easily.
Danny Williams was 32-3 and had just knocked out Mike Tyson. Vitali treated him like a cheap sparring partner.
Shannon Briggs was 51-5 and a 2-time Heavyweight Champion.. He couldn't win a round from Vitali.
Herbie Hide was 31-1, and a 2 X Heavyweight Champion a very quick fisted boxer who dominated and destroyed Michael Bentt.. Vitali iced him in 2 rds.
Two-time World Champion Tomasz Adamek 44-1... VK easily dominated and stopped him.
World Cruiserweight Champion Juan Carlos Gomez, 44-1... Vitali easily dominated and stopped him.

Who's on Primo Carnera's list of victims??? ... or on Jack Sharkey's list of victims??? ... Very few good ones, I'll tell you that.

[Tuan_Jim]

A list of Vitali's "name opponents" always hurts his case, and makes his awesome looking stats unintentionally hilarious.

[Counter-puncher]

Chris Arreola was 27-0 when he fought Vitali, and thought by some Latino writers to be a great Heavyweight.
Vaughan Bean
Larry Donald..
Timo Hoffman .

well, argument over folks, check out this murderer's row

[BitPlayer]

Deonty Wilder has a better KO% than Vitali

[BitPlayer]

Unlike the BS Ambling Alp puts out -- Vitali Klitscho's list victims as he became a 3-time Heavyweight Champion included some very good fighters.
. . .
Vaughan Bean was 42-2 and had never been stopped. Vitali stopped him..
. . .
Danny Williams was 32-3 and had just knocked out Mike Tyson. Vitali treated him like a cheap sparring partner. . . .

[Tuan_Jim]

But guys, Vitali beat a guy who dominated and destroyed Michael Bentt!

[Kalan]

Right... Michael Bentt had blasted out the 38-1 Tommy Morrison in 1 round in his fight just before that...to win a World Heavyweight Championship.

But Hide ripped his title away and put the upstart tyro out of his misery for good. Next stop??? Intensive Care!!! What an ass kicking.

[Kalan]

Chris Arreola was 27-0 when he fought Vitali, and thought by some Latino writers to be a great Heavyweight.
Vaughan Bean
Larry Donald..
Timo Hoffman .

well, argument over folks, check out this murderer's row

Arreola was undefeated and ranked the top Heavyweight Contender at the time... Vitali Klitschko was 38 years old -- the age Ali was for Larry Holmes.

Vaughn Bean and Larry Donald fought guys like Holyfield and Bowe while easily going the distance... Vitali K is the only man who ever stopped them.

Timo Hoffman was a huge man. An undefeated Heavyweight Contender, 22-0... Vitali boxed his ears off and put him in his place...nowhere.

Let's see Primo Carnera wonderful top-11 list... Let's see if the uncoordinated clown ever beat 6 World Champions and 6 undefeated Heavyweight Contenders.

[Counter-puncher]

Arreola was undefeated and ranked the top Heavyweight Contender at the time... .

Timo Hoffman was a huge man. An undefeated Heavyweight Contender, 22-0... .
.

[Kalan]

It's more like

Chris Arreola was 27-0 when he fought Vitali, and thought by some Latino writers to be a great Heavyweight. Vitali dominated and stopped him.
Sam Peter was a 30-1 Heavyweight Champion who'd never been stopped and only beaten once by Wladimir Klitschko. Vitali wasted him in 7.
Kirk Johnson was 34-1, lost one fight by DQ, and was never stopped... VK put him out in 2 rounds.
Vaughan Bean was 42-2 and had never been stopped. Vitali stopped him..
Larry Donald was 39-2 and had never been stopped.. Vitali stopped him..
Timo Hoffman was 22-0 and Vitali beat him very easily.
Danny Williams was 32-3 and had just knocked out Mike Tyson. Vitali treated him like a cheap sparring partner.
Shannon Briggs was 51-5 and a 2-time Heavyweight Champion.. He couldn't win a round from Vitali.
Herbie Hide was 31-1, and a 2 X Heavyweight Champion a very quick fisted boxer who dominated and destroyed Michael Bentt.. Vitali iced him in 2 rds.
Two-time World Champion Tomasz Adamek 44-1... VK easily dominated and stopped him.
World Cruiserweight Champion Juan Carlos Gomez, 44-1... Vitali easily dominated and stopped him.



But after youi see Primo Carnera's top 11.. That's more like

[BoxBuzz]

It's more like

Chris Arreola was 27-0 when he fought Vitali, and thought by some Latino writers to be a great Heavyweight. Vitali dominated and stopped him.
Sam Peter was a 30-1 Heavyweight Champion who'd never been stopped and only beaten once by Wladimir Klitschko. Vitali wasted him in 7.
Kirk Johnson was 34-1, lost one fight by DQ, and was never stopped... VK put him out in 2 rounds.
Vaughan Bean was 42-2 and had never been stopped. Vitali stopped him..
Larry Donald was 39-2 and had never been stopped.. Vitali stopped him..
Timo Hoffman was 22-0 and Vitali beat him very easily.
Danny Williams was 32-3 and had just knocked out Mike Tyson. Vitali treated him like a cheap sparring partner.
Shannon Briggs was 51-5 and a 2-time Heavyweight Champion.. He couldn't win a round from Vitali.
Herbie Hide was 31-1, and a 2 X Heavyweight Champion a very quick fisted boxer who dominated and destroyed Michael Bentt.. Vitali iced him in 2 rds.
Two-time World Champion Tomasz Adamek 44-1... VK easily dominated and stopped him.
World Cruiserweight Champion Juan Carlos Gomez, 44-1... Vitali easily dominated and stopped him.



But after youi see Primo Carnera's top 11.. That's more like

Kalan, I believe you failed to advertise the sniper in your inventory.