Like Kovalev Blame sits on Pacquiao's for choosing bad pomoters

[ace_bubble]

I think this loss to Horn has lot to do with people Pacquiao chooses to do business with.
The way he fought this fight he could have got the victory had he been more careful with negotiations.
It is pretty much same how Kovalev and his promoters dealt his first (and perhaps second) fight.

Lets circle back a bit. Under favourable circumstances Kovalev easily could have got the victory in first fight against Ward.
If you are choosing to fight in homeland of opponent then your team has to a good job negotiating judges and referee.
Hard to get victory in close decisions when you don't have say in that.

Again firstly why was Pacquiao fighting Horn in his hometown when he is the champion. Next he could have gone for three veteran American judges. I think Arumn did not have best interest of Pacquiao in mind when doing business for this fight.

What makes Mayweather so successful is that he never errs in these part of negotiations. He always fights in his backyard and ensures he has say in judges and referee for the fight. It is one bad fight that pushes you down hill for rest of your career. It is hard to see Kovalev getting good fights with great paydays from now on.

I feel Arumn now just want to ride with Pacquiao all the way down like he did all the way up. Same I can say for Kovalev's promoters.

I have seen lot of great fights fighting way past their primes and all bad fights, fights that were structured badly for them. In a way they kill their careers themselves and I hate to see Pacqiao heading down that road.

[Mr Icaman]

LOL Two of the judges were from the USA (one scoring 117-111) and the other from Argentina.

The Ref was also from America and Top Rank is an American promotion of Manny is a marque fighter...

Other than not having it in Australia I'm not sure how much more impartial it could have been...

[Lackeos]

Lets circle back a bit. Under favourable circumstances Kovalev easily could have got the victory in first fight against Ward.

He could have if he were a better fighter. Ward legitimately won 7 rounds. So if Kovalev were just better at boxing, then he could have won 7 rounds.

[ace_bubble]

Well I am not questioning the decisions but rather the circumstances under which fights were made.

If Kovalev had say in judges or fight made in europe exactly same fight could have had his hand raised.
Question here is why he agreed to these circumstances. He had the belts!!!
Were promoters really acting in the best interest of their fighters.

They way his last two fights played out, I doubt he can resurrect his career, I am sure now promoters would try to cash him in against rising stars.

Just step back and think will Mayweather agreed to such a fight. I think great deal of tactics happen out of the ring and its the job of promoters to take care of that.

Again in Manny's fight would he have gotten a benefit of doubt if fight was done in USA/Neutral territory. Again what was the need to take these conditions given you are the A side and having the belts.

We say Manny is the marquee fighter in Arumn's stable, but is he?!! The way he is being handled by the promoter suggest everything to the contrary.

Anyway these stories are not new and we have seen countless examples of even hall of famers fading away towards fag end of their career just the way promoters handle them.

Hate to see same happening to Manny. He may chose to retire or he has to do a much better job negotiating is next fight.

[boxing_rocks]

Lets circle back a bit. Under favourable circumstances Kovalev easily could have got the victory in first fight against Ward.

He could have if he were a better fighter. Ward legitimately won 7 rounds. So if Kovalev were just better at boxing, then he could have won 7 rounds.

Ward legitimately won 2-3 rounds. Another 2-3 rounds were close. Kovalev clearly won 6 rounds, arguably 8.

[JeanClaude Van Damme]

Why are you acting like nationality matters at all?

Check their bank accounts, not their birth certificates. smh

[klitoris]

If you think Top Rank wanted Manny to lose this fight, you have no idea about boxing. Top Rank gave Manny the best possible option. He got the most money for the easiest possible opponent.
This loss hurts Top Rank because now they can't feed Manny to Crawford in order for Crawford to become a star. This one is on Manny.

[Cam59]

I agree on what you are saying! Arum sold Pac out again in order to keep control of the WBO belt and milk Pac for a few more pay days against nobodies. Arum does not want Pac to fight any of the big name fighters at 140-147.... Crawford, Garcia, Porter, Spence or Thurman.

[ace_bubble]

Arum never supported Manny for his next fight and only pushed his agenda. Manny's first option was to get some deal made in Dubai but there was no support from Arum on that.
He always wanted him to fight Horn and I think did a poor job promoting this fight.

Home town fighters do get benefit of doubt because everything little they land gets huge roar from crowd and this can sway judges decision. Being a veteran promoter Arum always had an idea how this fight may play out and it indeed played out that way.

Even other oversee fights of Manny were done in neutral territories and I just fail to understand why this was done in opponents backyard when he did not bring anything to the table.

Manny could have gotten 10 million if he had fought anywhere in the world and he could have given Horn 1 million (more that 500K he got for this fight) fighting him at his location of choosing.

This looks like poor deal for Manny on all fronts exactly like last 2 fights did for Kovalev.

Only person who seem to have made money from Manny's fight was Arum.

Again Pacquiao should have better advisors around him otherwise last few years of his career would make no sense.

[Tanzio]

I agree that Arum knew that this fight had the ingredients for an upset: hometown venue and big size advantage, for challenger, dirth of KO capacity for nearly eight years in Pac.

I am not sure how anyone that did even a shred of homework on Horn could have picked Manny to stop him. Granted, he nearly did but Horn has shown great recuperative power and resiliency throughout his career. He is one tough mofo, and if you watched any of his footage you would have recognized it.

[gilgamesh]

I agree that Arum knew that this fight had the ingredients for an upset: hometown venue and big size advantage, for challenger, dirth of KO capacity for nearly eight years in Pac.

I am not sure how anyone that did even a shred of homework on Horn could have picked Manny to stop him. Granted, he nearly did but Horn has shown great recuperative power and resiliency throughout his career. He is one tough mofo, and if you watched any of his footage you would have recognized it.

I watched the Jeff Horn vs Randall Bailey fight prior, and my thinking was that if an older, slower Bailey could drop Horn then the far more talented, far quicker Pacquiao could drop him as well and keep him down.

Obviously it didn't turn out that way, but you can see how one might come to this conclusion.

[Tanzio]

I agree that Arum knew that this fight had the ingredients for an upset: hometown venue and big size advantage, for challenger, dirth of KO capacity for nearly eight years in Pac.

I am not sure how anyone that did even a shred of homework on Horn could have picked Manny to stop him. Granted, he nearly did but Horn has shown great recuperative power and resiliency throughout his career. He is one tough mofo, and if you watched any of his footage you would have recognized it.

I watched the Jeff Horn vs Randall Bailey fight prior, and my thinking was that if an older, slower Bailey could drop Horn then the far more talented, far quicker Pacquiao could drop him as well and keep him down.

Obviously it didn't turn out that way, but you can see how one might come to this conclusion.

I suppose based on just that fight. However, Manny has not kept anyone down and even at 105 Bailey has more power than Pac. The kid is just big, quick, tough, awkward, resilient and determined.

Pac has regressed but Horn is a handful.

[gilgamesh]

I agree that Arum knew that this fight had the ingredients for an upset: hometown venue and big size advantage, for challenger, dirth of KO capacity for nearly eight years in Pac.

I am not sure how anyone that did even a shred of homework on Horn could have picked Manny to stop him. Granted, he nearly did but Horn has shown great recuperative power and resiliency throughout his career. He is one tough mofo, and if you watched any of his footage you would have recognized it.

I watched the Jeff Horn vs Randall Bailey fight prior, and my thinking was that if an older, slower Bailey could drop Horn then the far more talented, far quicker Pacquiao could drop him as well and keep him down.

Obviously it didn't turn out that way, but you can see how one might come to this conclusion.

I suppose based on just that fight. However, Manny has not kept anyone down and even at 105 Bailey has more power than Pac. The kid is just big, quick, tough, awkward, resilient and determined.

Pac has regressed but Horn is a handful.

No doubt Bailey is a bigger puncher than Pac, he's a much more limited fighter though. Bailey is basically a one handed fighter. Hell of a right hand, but that's all you have to worry about with him.

Pac has (or at least had) a full arsenal, and was much more accurate with his shots and much quicker with his hands. I was just thinking he was gonna be able to get through with enough shots to drop Horn multiple times and force a stoppage.

Didn't turn out that way.

There were definitely times that the openings for a BIG shot from Pac were there, but as is often the case with older fighters he just couldn't pull the trigger fast enough.

[Tanzio]

I watched the Jeff Horn vs Randall Bailey fight prior, and my thinking was that if an older, slower Bailey could drop Horn then the far more talented, far quicker Pacquiao could drop him as well and keep him down.

Obviously it didn't turn out that way, but you can see how one might come to this conclusion.

I suppose based on just that fight. However, Manny has not kept anyone down and even at 105 Bailey has more power than Pac. The kid is just big, quick, tough, awkward, resilient and determined.

Pac has regressed but Horn is a handful.

No doubt Bailey is a bigger puncher than Pac, he's a much more limited fighter though. Bailey is basically a one handed fighter. Hell of a right hand, but that's all you have to worry about with him.

Pac has (or at least had) a full arsenal, and was much more accurate with his shots and much quicker with his hands. I was just thinking he was gonna be able to get through with enough shots to drop Horn multiple times and force a stoppage.

Didn't turn out that way.

There were definitely times that the openings for a BIG shot from Pac were there, but as is often the case with older fighters he just couldn't pull the trigger fast enough.

No doubt.

[Kalan]

Lets circle back a bit. Under favourable circumstances Kovalev easily could have got the victory in first fight against Ward.

He could have if he were a better fighter. Ward legitimately won 7 rounds. So if Kovalev were just better at boxing, then he could have won 7 rounds.

Kovalev was the better boxer in both fights... He won more rounds... Ward was the better fouler and had the judges and referee in his hip pocket in both fights.

[Tanzio]

Lets circle back a bit. Under favourable circumstances Kovalev easily could have got the victory in first fight against Ward.

He could have if he were a better fighter. Ward legitimately won 7 rounds. So if Kovalev were just better at boxing, then he could have won 7 rounds.

Kovalev was the better boxer in both fights... He won more rounds... Ward was the better fouler and had the judges and referee in his hip pocket in both fights.

Your boy lost - twice. You should get some preparation H and antibiotics for your condition.

[Best Coast]

Lets circle back a bit. Under favourable circumstances Kovalev easily could have got the victory in first fight against Ward.

He could have if he were a better fighter. Ward legitimately won 7 rounds. So if Kovalev were just better at boxing, then he could have won 7 rounds.

Kovalev was the better boxer in both fights... He won more rounds... Ward was the better fouler and had the judges and referee in his hip pocket in both fights.

Beg to differ. Kovalev was looking for a way out and that's why he was crying to the ref when he started running out of gas.

[boxing_rocks]

What PED testing did Horn and Pac do ?

[crusader]

He could have if he were a better fighter. Ward legitimately won 7 rounds. So if Kovalev were just better at boxing, then he could have won 7 rounds.

Kovalev was the better boxer in both fights... He won more rounds... Ward was the better fouler and had the judges and referee in his hip pocket in both fights.

Beg to differ. Kovalev was looking for a way out and that's why he was crying to the ref when he started running out of gas.

Not sure about that, as Kovalev acted very similarly in the Caparello bout; got hit low, dropped his hands and stood around as if waiting for the ref, then got clocked and dropped. Was he trying to quit then too?

I think he just reacts injudiciously to perceived fouls.

[gilgamesh]

Kovalev was the better boxer in both fights... He won more rounds... Ward was the better fouler and had the judges and referee in his hip pocket in both fights.

Beg to differ. Kovalev was looking for a way out and that's why he was crying to the ref when he started running out of gas.

Not sure about that, as Kovalev acted very similarly in the Caparello bout; got hit low, dropped his hands and stood around as if waiting for the ref, then gets clocked and dropped. Was he trying to quit then too?

I think he just reacts injudiciously to perceived fouls.

I have no sympathy for a guy that does that stuff. "Protect yourself all times" all fighters get told from the very first time they step into the ring to the last. If they don't heed that warning...they get what they get.

[crusader]

I agree

There is a type of fighter who will immediately stand around looking to the ref when they should keep fighting. I don't think it's a sign that they want to quit though.

[gilgamesh]

I agree

There is a type of fighter who will immediately stand around looking to the ref when they should keep fighting. I don't think it's a sign that they want to quit though.

No I don't think he wanted to quit against Ward, and I did think the stoppage was crap.

I know I've seen fighters complain to the referee in the past though and I loved it when they got nailed.

Even when it's MY guy my stance on this doesn't waiver. I adore Arturo Gatti for instance, my all time favorite fighter, but there was a point in his fight with Mayweather when he took his attention off of his opponent and looked at the referee to complain, and he got dropped by a left hook from Mayweather. I remember that night a friend of mine saying Floyd sucker punched him and this and that, my comment was "Protect yourself at all times, he didnt, Floyd took advantage...I don't blame him, I would've"

No matter which foot that shoe is on, my stance on that matter doesn't change.

[Blodhemn]

Nobody wanted Kovalev. Duva took a *chance* and signed him after the 2nd Boone fight. If she didn't, he probably would've quit the sport as I believe he fought as a pro for a few years prior to that, essentially for *free*. While true that Duva has zero pull in the sport and couldn't get equal treatment for her fighter, in the end, Kovalev at least got more money than he'd ever see other wise. Not even Vegas could rob him of that.

[ace_bubble]

It is the promotion that establishes who is A side and atleast who is not a pushover.
Kovalev side was completely rolled-over by Ward's side during promotions.

I doubt you can get away by hitting Mayweather "borderline" low. He is gonna create fuss and make sure referee takes due notice of the same. All the expectations are set during the promotions. You have time to understand that Judges how they score and referees how they officiate. Even before fight you can set your expectations clear. Like in this mega crossover fight there are strict (financial) penalties for Mcgregor if he decides to kick.

I just feel Kovalev fight could have been better negotiated. I doubt he will be same fighter from now on. He may now end up as stepping stone for budding fighters like Beterbiev.

Now lets come to Manny and his promoter. Just look at post fight comments from Arum. It just does not look like he is on Manny's side and even before the fight it never looked to me that he had Manny's best interest in mind. This fight the way it happened should have never happened.

A case for Horn is as good as a case for Daniel Jacob for trying hard against Golovkin. However Golovkin's promoters had set the expectations well in advance.

So fight actually starts before the "real" fight and that's one thing fighter should never loose in order to have fair chance in the real event.

I feel Manny if he wants to continue should take this part seriously and not let next promoter blindly dictate terms.

[Enlightened-One]

If you are choosing to fight in homeland of opponent then your team has to a good job negotiating judges and referee.
Hard to get victory in close decisions when you don't have say in that.

It's the duty of the boxing commissions, not the fighters’ nor the sports’ governing bodies, to appoint the referee and the judges.

Both sets of promoters can formally request the commissions to appoint officials from "neutral" countries and they can also complain about the appointment of specific individuals (if they can prove that their track record is questionable in nature). However, the commissions are under no obligation to fulfil requests of this nature.

It is important to note that promoters cannot request the commission to appoint specific individuals and nor can they ask for judges from specific countries.

Again firstly why was Pacquiao fighting Horn in his hometown when he is the champion. Next he could have gone for three veteran American judges.

The answer to your first question relates to a business decision based on maximising revenue.

In regards to your second point (as per my previous explanation), according to the rules, your proposal for Pacquiao to request the appointment of US officials is not possible.

I think Arumn did not have best interest of Pacquiao in mind when doing business for this fight.

Pacquiao has no legal right to expect Bob Arum to behave in a manner that protects his own interests, as this is not the role of a promoter. This duty belongs to the Filipino’s manager, Michael Koncz.

What makes Mayweather so successful is that he never errs in these part of negotiations. He always fights in his backyard and ensures he has say in judges and referee for the fight.

Floyd Mayweather Jr. is the proverbial A-side fighter (so he usually gets to dictate things like the purse split, venue, bout date etc.)… and a lot of US-based fighters’ prefer to have their bouts staged in Las Vegas (since you don’t pay state tax in Nevada, which I think is about 8.82%... or at least it used to be).

And for the record, Money May doesn’t get to “choose” his preferred officials for the bouts. The NSAC performs the selection (whenever he competes in Las Vegas)... and most of the time they appoint officials that either reside in that state or have frequently worked on bouts in that area.

I feel Arumn now just want to ride with Pacquiao all the way down like he did all the way up.

As I’ve already stated earlier, Bob Arum is not legally responsible for looking after Manny Pacquiao’s best interests.

Bob Arum’s company, Top Rank, is only responsible for promoting/producing Manny Pacquiao’s boxing events, but they do not represent him and nor are they legally obliged to operate in a manner that protects the Filipino legend’s best interests.

A promoter is well-within their right to attempt to maximize the profit generated from each fight promotion, because they’re the ones taking most of the financial risk. A couple of ways they can do this is to pay all the participants on their fight cards as little as possible... or they can stage the bout in a location that maximises revenue (such as Australia).

Therefore, Pacquiao has no legal right to expect Bob Arum to behave in a manner that protects his own interests.

What I have stated is not my personal opinion, I’ve paraphrased the rule-book, so the content of my post is simply not up for debate... unless you've found evidence when you performed your own research that contradicts the rules I have explained.