Please explain Hagler vs Leonard

TigerMoth · Post by **TigerMoth** » 23 Mar 2006, 19:48

I was just reading the "what if Hagler..." thread and was reminded of something that I haven't understood for years.

When Hagler fought Hearns, Hearns was a devastating puncher. But, Hagler took the fight to him and just walked through one of the best right hand knockout punches of all time (Hearns right hand was devastating).

I remember watching Hagler come out in orthodox stance in round 1 against Leonard and thinking, what the fornicate is he doing? It made him seem scared and tenative and gave Leonard confidence. Hagler, who I liked, just did nothing in the 1st round except help Leonard (who I do not like at all - although, I think he was a great fighter and admire his fighting heart and achievements). If Hagler won the first round, he would have won the fight even if the rest of the fight was the same.

It seems to me, if Hagler had come out in the first round and taken the fight to Leonard, the way he did against Hearns, he would have establish his dominance and I think, he would have KO'd Leonard in about round 4.

Here is one reason I dislike Leonard, I remember the Howard Cosell interview with Leonard after the Loenard:Duran 1 fight. Leonard was almost crying, sounding like a baby and saying, I tried but I couldn't fight my fight, Duran controlled me. By the next day, the ever self-promoting, lying piece of shit, was saying, I got caught up in the emotion and wanted to show I could beat him at his own fight. Now, I have watched the Leonard:Duran 1 fight many times and I respect Leonards effort. He fought a great fight. But, Duran was just to much for him on that night. No need for bullshit excuses.

OK, back to the topic, why didn't Hagler take the fight to Leonard right from the opening bell, like he did against Hearns.

As I said, I like Hagler and dislike Loenard. But, the fact that Hagler lost the fight was because he, Hagler, gave it away.

Anyway, if anyone has insight or knowledge into why Hagler didn't take the figth to Loenard (who hadn't fought in what, 2 years?) I would appreciate it because it has always been something I don't understand.

Thanks

theone · Post by **theone** » 23 Mar 2006, 20:19

Here is one reason I dislike Leonard, I remember the Howard Cosell interview with Leonard after the Loenard:Duran 1 fight. Leonard was almost crying, sounding like a baby and saying, I tried but I couldn't fight my fight, Duran controlled me. By the next day, the ever self-promoting, lying piece of shit, was saying, I got caught up in the emotion and wanted to show I could beat him at his own fight.

It seems rather harsh to call Leonard a piece of shit for making excuses. There are far worse things he could have done.Many great fighters have back tracked on statements and contradicted themselves; the're only human. Humans who have alot of pride, more so than the average person; thats what helps alot of them reach greatness.
Leonard was indeed a self promoter, a very good one at that. I admired the way he went through his career on his own terms, and left the game rich and with all of his facultys intact. Its great he didnt end up damaged or destitute like alot of other former greats.

Back to your point, Hagler knew he couldnt out box Hearns. He knew the only chance he had was to make a brawl out of it. I think Hagler wanted to beat Leonard at his own game and tried to fight a smart tactical fight.
Ive studied the fight dozens of time and score it a draw ever single time.

kick asner · Post by **kick asner** » 23 Mar 2006, 21:57

I was also dissapointed with Haglers performence. But I think a lot of it had to do with Leonard. So even though Hagler was not at his best Leonard proved to be a difficult opponent and he just kept Hagler off balance. Leonard did have lighting like quickness and used it well that night. It was just a case of two great fighters and someone had to lose.

Ezzard · Post by **Ezzard** » 24 Mar 2006, 05:06

I think someone mentioned Hagler's pride. On 2 levels Marvin was fighting his pride. He knew Ray was as slippery as an eel and he didn't want to be made to miss and look foolish. He also wanted to show that he was a great boxer too IMO. I have also pseculated that maybe Marvin thought that moving to leftie afer a few rounds would be more beneficial in throwing Ray off his game.

TigerMoth · Post by **TigerMoth** » 24 Mar 2006, 05:10

[quote="theone"][quote]
Here is one reason I dislike Leonard, I remember the Howard Cosell interview with Leonard after the Loenard:Duran 1 fight. Leonard was almost crying, sounding like a baby and saying, I tried but I couldn't fight my fight, Duran controlled me. By the next day, the ever self-promoting, lying piece of shit, was saying, I got caught up in the emotion and wanted to show I could beat him at his own fight.[/quote]

It seems rather harsh to call Leonard a piece of shit for making excuses. There are far worse things he could have done.Many great fighters have back tracked on statements and contradicted themselves; the're only human. Humans who have alot of pride, more so than the average person; thats what helps alot of them reach greatness.
Leonard was indeed a self promoter, a very good one at that. I admired the way he went through his career on his own terms, and left the game rich and with all of his facultys intact. Its great he didnt end up damaged or destitute like alot of other former greats.

Back to your point, Hagler knew he couldnt out box Hearns. He knew the only chance he had was to make a brawl out of it. I think Hagler wanted to beat Leonard at his own game and tried to fight a smart tactical fight.
Ive studied the fight dozens of time and score it a draw ever single time.[/quote]

I will withdraw "piece of shit". But, I have no respect for him. Without trying to detail my reasons, I will simply point to the TV Show the Contender and his role in it. I think the show diminishes boxing. Others have described the reasons this is the case more eloquently than I could. And, I will include Sly Stallone as a person who I don't respect because of this show and how he conducts himself. Previously, I had a great deal of respect for Stallone.

As far as Leonard managing his career, I believe the end result was a legacy not nearly as great as it could have been given his ability.

And, I still don't know why Hagler came out orthodox and not more agressively.

generic screen name · Post by **generic screen name** » 25 Mar 2006, 01:45

I saw the fight once and ruled it for Hagler, he definately underestimated Leonard which was very uncharacteristic for Hagler.. Leonard basically fought every thirty seconds of the end of each round. My dad had the fight on tape, but it recently went missing I would love to see it again.

theone · Post by **theone** » 25 Mar 2006, 08:12

Without trying to detail my reasons, I will simply point to the TV Show the Contender and his role in it. I think the show diminishes boxing. Others have described the reasons this is the case more eloquently than I could. And, I will include Sly Stallone as a person who I don't respect because of this show and how he conducts himself. Previously, I had a great deal of respect for Stallone.

Unworthy PPV fights,bad decision, lousy heavyweight division and one defense a year champions diminish boxing a hell of a lot more than The Contender. In fact I believe the show is a good thing for the sport. Alot of people I know who couldnt be bothered with the sport before, now have a genuine interest because of the program. I can only see a show like this helping the sport, not hurting it. Boxing does a good job of doing that to itself.

TigerMoth · Post by **TigerMoth** » 28 Mar 2006, 23:02

[quote="theone"][quote]Without trying to detail my reasons, I will simply point to the TV Show the Contender and his role in it. I think the show diminishes boxing. Others have described the reasons this is the case more eloquently than I could. And, I will include Sly Stallone as a person who I don't respect because of this show and how he conducts himself. Previously, I had a great deal of respect for Stallone.[/quote]

Unworthy PPV fights,bad decision, lousy heavyweight division and one defense a year champions diminish boxing a hell of a lot more than The Contender. In fact I believe the show is a good thing for the sport. Alot of people I know who couldnt be bothered with the sport before, now have a genuine interest because of the program. I can only see a show like this helping the sport, not hurting it. Boxing does a good job of doing that to itself.[/quote]

The Contender is a "Reality" show, Soap opera. Among other criticisms I have read that were written by people more informed and eloquent that I am are that it doesn't even show the entire round. Just whatever the producers/editors deem worthy - and then it show this parts multiple times. The fact that actual boxing has its faults and that a soap opera appeals to a wider audience than pure boxing doesn't change the fact that this soap opera featuring mediocre talent diminishes real boxing.

So, on topic, why do you think Hagler didn't come out more aggressively?

mattyp151 · Post by **mattyp151** » 28 Mar 2006, 23:13

Hagler gave away the first 4 rounds, but in my eyes (I'm biased) he won 7 of the next 8. All Leonard did was fight the last 15-30 seconds of every round, and the crowd went nuts when he landed combos on Haglers elbows that Marvin brushed off as nothing.

Not to mention the only way Leonard would step in with Hagler was if he was given every concession...big ring, 12 rounds, venue, it all played into the favor of Leonard. Had the fight been in a smaller ring and 15 rounds, Sugar Ray doesn't make it out of that fight.

He knew that a rematch was warranted and he would be expected to give the same concessions Marvin gave. However, he used bullshit boxing politics to avoid a rematch, and he forced one of the best of our time out of the game.

rufus payne · Post by **rufus payne** » 29 Mar 2006, 15:05

Hagler got robbed...Hagler was the champ and took the fight to Ray. Haglers skills were on the decline but he still clearly won the fight.

MEISINGER · Post by **MEISINGER** » 29 Mar 2006, 15:17

close fight.but hagler was the champ and ray did not take his title from him.

rufus payne · Post by **rufus payne** » 29 Mar 2006, 16:26

Decagon wrote:All the challenger has to do is outpoint the champion. Leonard won more rounds than Hagler did, and he won the title.

Hagler got robbed....Hagler out pointed Ray

silkov · Post by **silkov** » 31 Mar 2006, 15:05

Hagler was shot basically, if you watch him against Mugubi you can see that the speed and reflexes were going... by the time of the Leonard fight there was added age, rust and wear and tear, ...plus Leonard fought a very clever fight and his speed would always have troubled Hagler... all in all Leonard outpointed Hagler fair and square but his refusal to grant a immeadiate rematch casts a blot on his legacy imo...

Arsenal · Post by **Arsenal** » 31 Mar 2006, 15:17

I still have Hagler winning the fight. The crowd won in for Leonard and whoever said about Leonard in that fight "every time he throws a punch 20,000? people cheer" (Was it Haglers trainer?) was right. Watch it with the sound off it gives the fight a different perspective.

silkov · Post by **silkov** » 31 Mar 2006, 15:30

Arsenal wrote:I still have Hagler winning the fight. The crowd won in for Leonard and whoever said about Leonard in that fight "every time he throws a punch 20,000? people cheer" (Was it Haglers trainer?) was right. Watch it with the sound off it gives the fight a different perspective.

I've watched it several times and Ray wins by 2 rounds... he won 4 or 5 of the first 6 rounds and then took some of the late rounds... Hagler was ineffective, you don't win fights just plodding forward, you win fights by landing punches and Ray landed the more effective punches at the right time... and I say this while being more a Hagler fan than a Leonard fan... I do think Ray gets a rough deal these days, he did produce a great performance for a guy who had been out of the ring for almost 4 years... Haglers biggest mistake was underestimating Leonard and giving away too many concessions prior to the fight...

Arsenal · Post by **Arsenal** » 31 Mar 2006, 15:48

What concessions did he give away Silkov?

silkov · Post by **silkov** » 31 Mar 2006, 16:01

Arsenal wrote:What concessions did he give away Silkov?

Size of the ring, type of gloves, 12 rounds instead of 15 rounds... incidentally I've always been curious about Hagler weighing just 157 for the fight, why was he so light?.... did he overtrain, was it another 'agreement' with Leonard...

thunderfromdownunder · Post by **thunderfromdownunder** » 31 Mar 2006, 19:24

rufus payne wrote:Hagler got robbed...Hagler was the champ and took the fight to Ray. Haglers skills were on the decline but he still clearly won the fight.

i have the fight on tape, ive watched it twice, and i fail to see the controversy,
leonard won that fight

silkov · Post by **silkov** » 01 Apr 2006, 11:43

thunderfromdownunder wrote:
rufus payne wrote:Hagler got robbed...Hagler was the champ and took the fight to Ray. Haglers skills were on the decline but he still clearly won the fight.
i have the fight on tape, ive watched it twice, and i fail to see the controversy,
leonard won that fight

I agree, it was a close fight but Leonard was a clear winner... he out-boxed Hagler, simple as that...

BoxBuzz · Post by **BoxBuzz** » 01 Apr 2006, 13:16

On this silkov and I can find agreement.

Ambling Alp · Post by **Ambling Alp** » 01 Apr 2006, 13:37

silkov wrote:
thunderfromdownunder wrote:
rufus payne wrote:Hagler got robbed...Hagler was the champ and took the fight to Ray. Haglers skills were on the decline but he still clearly won the fight.
i have the fight on tape, ive watched it twice, and i fail to see the controversy,
leonard won that fight
I agree, it was a close fight but Leonard was a clear winner... he out-boxed Hagler, simple as that...

Amen!

rufus payne · Post by **rufus payne** » 03 Apr 2006, 12:56

Ambling Alp wrote:
silkov wrote:
thunderfromdownunder wrote: i have the fight on tape, ive watched it twice, and i fail to see the controversy,
leonard won that fight
I agree, it was a close fight but Leonard was a clear winner... he out-boxed Hagler, simple as that...

Amen!

watched it twice made me sick...Hagler got f****d