The Krays and boxing

[Coco]

Apparently they always shook you by the hand after raping you!

[TheLeprechaun]

Forgive me if I'm wrong but they look like proper hard gangsters here

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D1Qc_8DoUCs

The one on the left is a serious nutter by the looks of it with his blinking and just general demeanor. The one on the right is one one who actually had skitzophrenia and he looks like the less mad one. These for me look like proper gangsters here. I expected a loudmouth/overly cockney type or a timid demeanor (from the wide variety of stuff I've heard) but coming from someone who hadn't heard about the Krays until today and just searched YouTube for a video, I think they look the part as gangsters. Owning and running nightclubs (grew up in poverty no doubt, I don't have to check to know I'm right) and the polished way they are answering plus the one on the left looks like a genuine nutter, you have to say they weren't there to make up the numbers. The way they both look to the solicitor at the same time made me laugh out loud

Funny how you hear stories of them being run out of places but never a stories about someone daring to come to London to take them on. Easy to see why from that video.

[CharlesListon]

There was nothing to take.

All the money was in the West End and Soho and these bummers never got anywhere near it and didn't try, other than Esmereldas Barn in Knightsbridge which was the size of a fag packet and in Knightsbridge which wasn't really here nor there.

They had shit holes in east London and that was that. There legend sprang up from their own self publicity and desperation to be seen with the famous. The famous didn't know there arseholes from their elbows and loved the thrill of being seen with some ruffians.

They never made any money. They had fornicate all when they went down and never got anywhere near any real money.

The Richardson's on the other hand were the real deal. Very clever men, very careful and has some serious money and some serious fellas working for them.

[Counter-puncher]

Funny how you hear stories of them being run out of places but never a stories about someone daring to come to London to take them on. Easy to see why from that video.

same reason as most historical conquerors never bothered for too long with Afghanistan. there's fornicate-all of any value there so why bother?

[Eddy]

Yeah they were gay, but better then the shite walking the streets today dressing like scruffy junkies and all giving it the "init blud" squirting people in the faces with acid. East Enders took pride in their clobber then (cuff links suites ect)and spoke cockney. London's a poo hole now. I'd rather see R&R strolling around then spend a min in the company of the gangster "yoot" of the present.

[boxingknockout]

Apparently they always shook you by the hand after raping you!

Yes they were total gentlemen. Old school and polite and never swore in from of womenfolk. They would always approach their victims with respect: 'awight son. Drop your breeches, bite on this stick... this is going to hurt me more than You.... as I'm not using lube. Luvverly jubberly let's get started.....thrown a banana down the strand, I'm Henery the 8th I am, and don't dilly dally on the way!!! Oi!!!!'

Or something. Then they would throw a fresh handkerchief to the young lad with the bleeding anus and sign off with 'clear yourself up son, you look a right bladdy mess!'

[Eddy]

Apparently they always shook you by the hand after raping you!

Yes they were total gentlemen. Old school and polite and never swore in from of womenfolk. They would always approach their victims with respect: 'awight son. Drop your breeches, bite on this stick... this is going to hurt me more than You.... as I'm not using lube. Luvverly jubberly let's get started.....thrown a banana down the strand, I'm Henery the 8th I am, and don't dilly dally on the way!!! Oi!!!!'

Or something. Then they would throw a fresh handkerchief to the young lad with the bleeding anus and sign off with 'clear yourself up son, you look a right bladdy mess!'

init blud. You must be from the endz init?

[Cyclops]

Forgive me if I'm wrong but they look like proper hard gangsters here

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D1Qc_8DoUCs

The one on the left is a serious nutter by the looks of it with his blinking and just general demeanor. The one on the right is one one who actually had skitzophrenia and he looks like the less mad one. These for me look like proper gangsters here. I expected a loudmouth/overly cockney type or a timid demeanor (from the wide variety of stuff I've heard) but coming from someone who hadn't heard about the Krays until today and just searched YouTube for a video, I think they look the part as gangsters. Owning and running nightclubs (grew up in poverty no doubt, I don't have to check to know I'm right) and the polished way they are answering plus the one on the left looks like a genuine nutter, you have to say they weren't there to make up the numbers. The way they both look to the solicitor at the same time made me laugh out loud

Funny how you hear stories of them being run out of places but never a stories about someone daring to come to London to take them on. Easy to see why from that video.

I remember seeing that video for the first time and being quite shocked at how weird those voices were.

Look, it's well documented that they were both gay and that they both liked "boys" but all the stories about them being out and out paedophiles and rapists are internet rumours and hearsay. There's loads of stuff about them being procurers of children for the rich and powerful on line but there's nothing concrete. These are the same websites claiming Cliff Richard is a nonce, too. You can't take it as fact.

They were undoubtedly horrible nasty brutal men who did a great PR job on themselves which people believed for a long time. They didn't have hearts of gold, were shit businessmen and the Krays were "a scruffy little firm" according to one of their main men, Albert Donahue, who maintained that the Richardsons had all the real hard cases and were a much smarter and tougher outfit. Whatever, people were genuinely frightened of them and it's also rewriting history to say they were nothing. People gave them a wide berth and with good reason. They were complete psychopaths and very dangerous, no matter how stupid they were.

Good riddance.

[Eddy]

I think it's a lot worse now. Having a bad attitude and having no respect for others, seems to be the thing today.

[mickey1975]

I think it's a lot worse now. Having a bad attitude and having no respect for others, seems to be the thing today.

None of which is as bad as being a rapist!

[Taansend]

erm... read books about the Krays.. . Watch the documentary about Ron Kray and Lord boothby... look at the daily mirror archives... do you want me to go on ?

Yes.

[Taansend]

Anyone seen the film Legend where Tom Hardy plays both the Kray twins? Worth a watch?

Terrible.

[Taansend]

Have the Kray brothers any offspring? If so what do their children do for a living etc.

You're gunna struggle to have kids when you're spaffing up a muscley flyweights arse.

[Taansend]

Anyway, there seems to be a lot of confusing information in this thread (& some f*cking funny posts).

I grew up in South London and heard plenty of stories - from my Mum's oldest sister's husbands family & extended family - about the Richardsons who they were somehow connected to by the 4th or 5th degree.

But my knowledge of the Krays is limited to a book I read many, many years ago by Nipper Reid (Reed), who I think was the copper who arrested them. He was also connected to the BBBoC and boxing in general, I believe.

So when I ask questions from people who claim to have knowledge I'm just asking for more info. I don't believe or disbelieve you (I know how urban myths go) or think you're lying. I just know there's a lot of bollocks out there ("A bloke down the pub told me - and this is from someone who knew the Krays personally"). I just want to find out how real the source is.

I never knew Reg was also gay. Or not gay, just a child molester according to one or two here. I didn't know about the sex ring supply to the Rich. Although that does seem a tad cliched etc. Wasn't Cliff Richard ALLEGEDLY a child plaything of the rich

So I'm not saying everyone with info is a liar. Just what are your sources.

Thanks

[CharlesListon]

Freddie Foreman told me much of thecreal history.

A guy called John Pearson was commissioned by the twins to write their story. He was terrified of them, but then again he was an upper class writer with no real experience of the working classes, let alone the criminal class

He was heavily influenced by what the twins wanted to portray and as such "The Profession of Violence" is pretty much the source of much of their legend/myth.

After they died he released "The Cult of Violence" which was far more honest.

At the time of their arrest, the police badly needed a success on cracking down on what the media were describing as a lawless and corrupt city of London.

The public had earlier really got behind the Train Robbers and the police were in the middle of a purge on the bent coppers running West End central and the Flying Squad.

Thus they massively exaggerated the nature and extent of what the Richardson's had been doing and the Krays a bit later. The Krays were the author of their own down fall.

Until the murders (which were hugely unnecessary) they were of no concern or relevance to anyone....which is precisely why they felt the need to kill Myers/Cornell, McVitie and the botched fornicate up with Frank Mitchell.

Cornell was not scared of the twins. No one other than the straights were. He'd fronted them up on several occasions and they bottled it. Shooting him in the head was one way of ensuring he didn't fight back.

McVitie was likewise not scared and was a hard man. He had blatantly taken the piss and didn't give a fornicate. He was ambushed when drunk by 5 or 6 and Reggie still fucked it up.

Mitchell wasn't sprung from Dartmoor, he just walked off from a work party and got picked up in a car. He often walked off and went to a pub on the moor. They didn't know what to do with him and ended up getting friends to so their dirty work.

The stuff about Ronnie being gay and having a liking for boys was well known and open in the 60s.

Reggie kept it more quiet but again everyone knew.

The suggestions about procuring boys comes from a couple of cases of the time where peers, celebrities and generally posh blokes were still in the closet due to the fact that bumming was imprisonable. When fornicating your public school chums became tiresome there was a ready source of young men prepared to get buggered for some cash, booze, drugs and a ride in a nice car.

Boothby and some of his pals were involved in these parties and wanted some tough. There are photos in existence of Ronnie with one of his regular boys (Leslie someone I think) . This boy went to these parties sometimes with Ron, sometimes without. That's were the procurement suggestions come from.

These weren't kids, but we're young looking 17/18 year old boys. Nonce is probably a bit strong a word, although Ronnie did have a penchant for North African boys.....this was well known.

This kid Leslie, did vaguely resemble a well known gold medal winning boxer from east London....thats where the urban myth sprung from.

I know this stuff primarily because my family are from South London, I'm related to Peter Hennessy who had the straightener with Eddie Richardson the night Dickie Hart got shot in Dr Smith and the Witchdoctor in Catford.
Peter subsequently got done by Paddy Onions a few years later at a boxing dinner.
Paddy Onions got done in turn by Jimmy Davey from Coventry who ended up getting choked out and dying by a copper.

There are also plenty of books out there that factually record what happened back then. Former Southern Area board official (and brief to Frank Fraser) James Morton has written a few that cut out all the biased myth and reports the facts.

Court records are also available which also provide a bit more fact than the stuff of legend.

The Krays themselves never had a straightener in their lives, they were always tooled up, had numbers and were very careful who they picked on.

[Boxerbeetle]

Anyone seen the film Legend where Tom Hardy plays both the Kray twins? Worth a watch?

Terrible.

Funnily enough I ended up watching it last night. I didn't think it was too bad - massively cliched and total bollocks, but still quite enjoyed it. The portrayal of Ron was interesting, Hardy basically played him like he was semi-autistic as well as completely insane.

[CharlesListon]

Legend is basically a screenplay of "The Profession of Violence" more or less.
It's the version of the Krays that they wanted to be seen. Pearson was terrified of Ronnie, but Ronnie was more consistent than Reggie.
Reggie would by all accounts be moody and sulky and was a miserable pudendum in drink.

[Cyclops]

Freddie Foreman told me much of thecreal history.

A guy called John Pearson was commissioned by the twins to write their story. He was terrified of them, but then again he was an upper class writer with no real experience of the working classes, let alone the criminal class

He was heavily influenced by what the twins wanted to portray and as such "The Profession of Violence" is pretty much the source of much of their legend/myth.

After they died he released "The Cult of Violence" which was far more honest.

At the time of their arrest, the police badly needed a success on cracking down on what the media were describing as a lawless and corrupt city of London.

The public had earlier really got behind the Train Robbers and the police were in the middle of a purge on the bent coppers running West End central and the Flying Squad.

Thus they massively exaggerated the nature and extent of what the Richardson's had been doing and the Krays a bit later. The Krays were the author of their own down fall.

Until the murders (which were hugely unnecessary) they were of no concern or relevance to anyone....which is precisely why they felt the need to kill Myers/Cornell, McVitie and the botched eff up with Frank Mitchell.

Cornell was not scared of the twins. No one other than the straights were. He'd fronted them up on several occasions and they bottled it. Shooting him in the head was one way of ensuring he didn't fight back.

McVitie was likewise not scared and was a hard man. He had blatantly taken the piss and didn't give a eff. He was ambushed when drunk by 5 or 6 and Reggie still fucked it up.

Mitchell wasn't sprung from Dartmoor, he just walked off from a work party and got picked up in a car. He often walked off and went to a pub on the moor. They didn't know what to do with him and ended up getting friends to so their dirty work.

The stuff about Ronnie being gay and having a liking for boys was well known and open in the 60s.

Reggie kept it more quiet but again everyone knew.

The suggestions about procuring boys comes from a couple of cases of the time where peers, celebrities and generally posh blokes were still in the closet due to the fact that bumming was imprisonable. When effing your public school chums became tiresome there was a ready source of young men prepared to get buggered for some cash, booze, drugs and a ride in a nice car.

Boothby and some of his pals were involved in these parties and wanted some tough. There are photos in existence of Ronnie with one of his regular boys (Leslie someone I think) . This boy went to these parties sometimes with Ron, sometimes without. That's were the procurement suggestions come from.

These weren't kids, but we're young looking 17/18 year old boys. Nonce is probably a bit strong a word, although Ronnie did have a penchant for North African boys.....this was well known.

This kid Leslie, did vaguely resemble a well known gold medal winning boxer from east London....thats where the urban myth sprung from.

I know this stuff primarily because my family are from South London, I'm related to Peter Hennessy who had the straightener with Eddie Richardson the night Dickie Hart got shot in Dr Smith and the Witchdoctor in Catford.
Peter subsequently got done by Paddy Onions a few years later at a boxing dinner.
Paddy Onions got done in turn by Jimmy Davey from Coventry who ended up getting choked out and dying by a copper.

There are also plenty of books out there that factually record what happened back then. Former Southern Area board official (and brief to Frank Fraser) James Morton has written a few that cut out all the biased myth and reports the facts.

Court records are also available which also provide a bit more fact than the stuff of legend.

The Krays themselves never had a straightener in their lives, they were always tooled up, had numbers and were very careful who they picked on.

Good post. John Pearson must have written at least two books on the same subject since the Profession of Violence. I read the second one and then became immensely bored. I mean, good luck to the bloke: if people are happy to keep on paying for the same story... he is a bit of a hack though and keeps on banging about Paranoid schizophrenia (which is what Ronnie was diagnosed with) being an especially "rare and dangerous"'type of schizophrenia which is a load of old bollocks. It isn't, it's probably the most common schizophrenic diagnosis and I was amazed he persisted with that line over decades. It's out of order.

I'll just add for people who don't know anything about it all that both brothers were also mentally ill although Reg never suffered enough to get nutted off to Broadmoor like Ron and did all his 30 years, plus more I believe, in normal prison.

Both got married to the sort of mental, half witted women that fall in love with gay mentally ill murderers doing 30 stretches, Ron to a gold digging strip-o-gram muppet called Kate who subsequently made a few bob pretending she was hard and had now thankfully disappeared. Reg married some supposedly quite intelligent lady called Roberta although she had to share him with a boyfriend, Bradley something, and so she was yet another beard. Obviously she seemed happy with that situation and seems to have a career writing books that sell again for her famous surname.

A load of idiots and hangers on made a few quid in the 90's writing books about how tough they were and how well connected they were to the twins, perpetuating the lies and the myths simply as it was just a way to make money: people wanted to believe it and parted with money to believe it.

despite Tom Hardy bring quite good in it the recent film Legend was a disgusting, embarrassing load of old lies that I'm not even going to begin to pick apart here. But it's almost comically bad if you know anything about the truth of any of it.

[rm1]

Some good posts here, but the Twins weren't no hopers pretending to be villains they were a dangerous and successful outfit although not the only ones at it nor even the most successful at the time.
What made the twins unusual other than being deranged was that they sought publicity both before and after their arrest. As such their continued popularity is best explained by the strange combination of modern celebrity seeking with now obsolete forms of criminality.

[coneye]

Just watched the film Legends today actually , streamed it after reading these posts , it was a couple of hours of entertainment , mostly probably bollocks but Hardy was real good in it . . Times gone by now, but 20 years ago every Londoner you met , either claimed to be freinds with them or there uncle was in the gang with them , Every english town had local villains meet the Krays at the train station and put them back on , sending them back to London with the tail between there legs , No one thinks when there telling the stories , what the fook would rich gangsters be doing catching a train , when they had expensive cars and lackies to drive them .

I'm not really impressed with stories of hardmen and gangsters , but i do know one thing , you don't rule even part of a place like London , and commit murders , unless you are a nasty peice of work . Hardmen or not they were viscous thugs who committed murder and terrorised people , and like i said before they went out of favor half of London claimed to be there freinds .

[Tomasino]

Freddie Foreman told me much of thecreal history.

A guy called John Pearson was commissioned by the twins to write their story. He was terrified of them, but then again he was an upper class writer with no real experience of the working classes, let alone the criminal class

He was heavily influenced by what the twins wanted to portray and as such "The Profession of Violence" is pretty much the source of much of their legend/myth.

After they died he released "The Cult of Violence" which was far more honest.

At the time of their arrest, the police badly needed a success on cracking down on what the media were describing as a lawless and corrupt city of London.

The public had earlier really got behind the Train Robbers and the police were in the middle of a purge on the bent coppers running West End central and the Flying Squad.

Thus they massively exaggerated the nature and extent of what the Richardson's had been doing and the Krays a bit later. The Krays were the author of their own down fall.

Until the murders (which were hugely unnecessary) they were of no concern or relevance to anyone....which is precisely why they felt the need to kill Myers/Cornell, McVitie and the botched eff up with Frank Mitchell.

Cornell was not scared of the twins. No one other than the straights were. He'd fronted them up on several occasions and they bottled it. Shooting him in the head was one way of ensuring he didn't fight back.

McVitie was likewise not scared and was a hard man. He had blatantly taken the piss and didn't give a eff. He was ambushed when drunk by 5 or 6 and Reggie still fucked it up.

Mitchell wasn't sprung from Dartmoor, he just walked off from a work party and got picked up in a car. He often walked off and went to a pub on the moor. They didn't know what to do with him and ended up getting friends to so their dirty work.

The stuff about Ronnie being gay and having a liking for boys was well known and open in the 60s.

Reggie kept it more quiet but again everyone knew.

The suggestions about procuring boys comes from a couple of cases of the time where peers, celebrities and generally posh blokes were still in the closet due to the fact that bumming was imprisonable. When effing your public school chums became tiresome there was a ready source of young men prepared to get buggered for some cash, booze, drugs and a ride in a nice car.

Boothby and some of his pals were involved in these parties and wanted some tough. There are photos in existence of Ronnie with one of his regular boys (Leslie someone I think) . This boy went to these parties sometimes with Ron, sometimes without. That's were the procurement suggestions come from.

These weren't kids, but we're young looking 17/18 year old boys. Nonce is probably a bit strong a word, although Ronnie did have a penchant for North African boys.....this was well known.

This kid Leslie, did vaguely resemble a well known gold medal winning boxer from east London....thats where the urban myth sprung from.

I know this stuff primarily because my family are from South London, I'm related to Peter Hennessy who had the straightener with Eddie Richardson the night Dickie Hart got shot in Dr Smith and the Witchdoctor in Catford.
Peter subsequently got done by Paddy Onions a few years later at a boxing dinner.
Paddy Onions got done in turn by Jimmy Davey from Coventry who ended up getting choked out and dying by a copper.

There are also plenty of books out there that factually record what happened back then. Former Southern Area board official (and brief to Frank Fraser) James Morton has written a few that cut out all the biased myth and reports the facts.

Court records are also available which also provide a bit more fact than the stuff of legend.

The Krays themselves never had a straightener in their lives, they were always tooled up, had numbers and were very careful who they picked on.

I've heard much of the same stories from people in boxing that you likely know. Anyway the thing I always wonder about is, why did Freddie and that do the twins bidding? Why did Dave Hunt keep visiting them? I remember when Foreman didn't bad mouth them. Now he does. The stuff I heard was told to me in the 90s at a family wedding in London and I was a bit surprised because the stories I'd heard or read up till then had made them out to be serious.

[jaymitch81]

Freddie Foreman told me much of thecreal history.

A guy called John Pearson was commissioned by the twins to write their story. He was terrified of them, but then again he was an upper class writer with no real experience of the working classes, let alone the criminal class

He was heavily influenced by what the twins wanted to portray and as such "The Profession of Violence" is pretty much the source of much of their legend/myth.

After they died he released "The Cult of Violence" which was far more honest.

At the time of their arrest, the police badly needed a success on cracking down on what the media were describing as a lawless and corrupt city of London.

The public had earlier really got behind the Train Robbers and the police were in the middle of a purge on the bent coppers running West End central and the Flying Squad.

Thus they massively exaggerated the nature and extent of what the Richardson's had been doing and the Krays a bit later. The Krays were the author of their own down fall.

Until the murders (which were hugely unnecessary) they were of no concern or relevance to anyone....which is precisely why they felt the need to kill Myers/Cornell, McVitie and the botched eff up with Frank Mitchell.

Cornell was not scared of the twins. No one other than the straights were. He'd fronted them up on several occasions and they bottled it. Shooting him in the head was one way of ensuring he didn't fight back.

McVitie was likewise not scared and was a hard man. He had blatantly taken the piss and didn't give a eff. He was ambushed when drunk by 5 or 6 and Reggie still fucked it up.

Mitchell wasn't sprung from Dartmoor, he just walked off from a work party and got picked up in a car. He often walked off and went to a pub on the moor. They didn't know what to do with him and ended up getting friends to so their dirty work.

The stuff about Ronnie being gay and having a liking for boys was well known and open in the 60s.

Reggie kept it more quiet but again everyone knew.

The suggestions about procuring boys comes from a couple of cases of the time where peers, celebrities and generally posh blokes were still in the closet due to the fact that bumming was imprisonable. When effing your public school chums became tiresome there was a ready source of young men prepared to get buggered for some cash, booze, drugs and a ride in a nice car.

Boothby and some of his pals were involved in these parties and wanted some tough. There are photos in existence of Ronnie with one of his regular boys (Leslie someone I think) . This boy went to these parties sometimes with Ron, sometimes without. That's were the procurement suggestions come from.

These weren't kids, but we're young looking 17/18 year old boys. Nonce is probably a bit strong a word, although Ronnie did have a penchant for North African boys.....this was well known.

This kid Leslie, did vaguely resemble a well known gold medal winning boxer from east London....thats where the urban myth sprung from.

I know this stuff primarily because my family are from South London, I'm related to Peter Hennessy who had the straightener with Eddie Richardson the night Dickie Hart got shot in Dr Smith and the Witchdoctor in Catford.
Peter subsequently got done by Paddy Onions a few years later at a boxing dinner.
Paddy Onions got done in turn by Jimmy Davey from Coventry who ended up getting choked out and dying by a copper.

There are also plenty of books out there that factually record what happened back then. Former Southern Area board official (and brief to Frank Fraser) James Morton has written a few that cut out all the biased myth and reports the facts.

Court records are also available which also provide a bit more fact than the stuff of legend.

The Krays themselves never had a straightener in their lives, they were always tooled up, had numbers and were very careful who they picked on.

Was there any proof of Mitchell being done over in the van? I know blood was specs were identified in the van and people like Foreman have had a lot to say about it over the years but nobody was ever retrieved is my belief?

[CharlesListon]

Freddie said they wrapped him in a mattress and tied it with wire, weighted him down and then buried him in the English channel out the way of the shipping lanes.

There was another case a few years before (this is totally unconnected) where a body got taken out to the channel in a light aircraft and dumped. Except the dull pudenda didn't have a map and at low tide his body was found just off the marshes. The Setty case it was.


in relation to Freddie change of attitude.....I asked him. Quite simply in the 90's (after that shit Spandau Ballet film) and then in the Guy Ritchie era no one would get a pay check if they said, "Actually the Krays were a pair of useless pudenda"

[jaymitch81]

Freddie said they wrapped him in a mattress and tied it with wire, weighted him down and then buried him in the English channel out the way of the shipping lanes.

There was another case a few years before (this is totally unconnected) where a body got taken out to the channel in a light aircraft and dumped. Except the dull pudenda didn't have a map and at low tide his body was found just off the marshes. The Setty case it was.


in relation to Freddie change of attitude.....I asked him. Quite simply in the 90's (after that poo Spandau Ballet film) and then in the Guy Ritchie era no one would get a pay check if they said, "Actually the Krays were a pair of useless pudenda"

Mitchell was a relative of my old man and we have letters from many years ago stating he was not actually killed and it was a story fathomed to keep the two lads 'relevant'

[Jon Saxon]

Reg and Ron was good boys. They'd always elp you across the road or with yer shopping. In them days people had respect for the elderly and knew all the words to knees up mavva brarn.

Problem was if you was a boy, after being helped over the road you ad yer daks pulled down and your shatbox badgered like nobody's business.

Still, we all left our front doors open in them days innit

Sometimes you just read something that puts you in a good mood all night.

This post was it.