Who got the most undeserving shot at the HW Championship?

[gp.]

Charles Martin is the only man who not only got an undeserved shot at the title but also got to make an undeserved defence.

Not really... Martin had a poor ranking himself -- but his defense was deserved because Joshua was a top Heavyweight... Leon Spinks got an undeserved title shot... And Spinks made an undeserved defense against Ali instead of the top contender... So Spinks was stripped of the title and Holmes became the Heavyweight Champion by beating Norton.

Then you had Michael Bentt getting an undeserved Title Fight with Tommy Morrison... Then Bentt made his first defense against Herbie Hide... Was Hide was one of the world's top Heavyweight challengers??? Maybe, I'm not sure -- so that may have been another double... Hide was a 2-time Heavyweight Champion who also won the title against undeserved Tony Tucker and defended that title against 2 undeserved challengers with good records who you never heard of.

You miss my point. Joshua deserved to be there but Martin didn't.

[Kalan]

Undeserved challenger or not...if Martin's top rated opponent blew a knee out he still won the title fair and square... Defending the title against a high ranking challenger was then legitimate business for him.. Martin could have fought a couple Jean Pierre Coopman's, Don Cockell's, Brian London's and Chuck Wepner's before taking on Joshua.. Put a little money in the piggy bank.. He went straight for the gold.

[gp.]

Undeserved challenger or not...if Martin's top rated opponent blew a knee out he still won the title fair and square... Defending the title against a high ranking challenger was then legitimate business for him.. Martin could have fought a couple Jean Pierre Coopman's, Don Cockell's, Brian London's and Chuck Wepner's before taking on Joshua.. Put a little money in the piggy bank.. He went straight for the gold.

Because he knew there was every chance of the Coopmans, Cockells or Wepners beating him before he got the chance of the big money fight.

[scartissue]

Undeserved challenger or not...if Martin's top rated opponent blew a knee out he still won the title fair and square... Defending the title against a high ranking challenger was then legitimate business for him.. Martin could have fought a couple Jean Pierre Coopman's, Don Cockell's, Brian London's and Chuck Wepner's before taking on Joshua.. Put a little money in the piggy bank.. He went straight for the gold.

Because he knew there was every chance of the Coopmans, Cockells or Wepners beating him before he got the chance of the big money fight.

That's exactly right. You don't think Braddock knew this, which is why he blew off the Schmeling fight or as was mentioned, Spinks blowing off the Norton fight or Luis Santana rematching and rematching Terry Norris. Go for the big money as long as the offer is there.

[scartissue]

Adding one more thing to my last comment, back in '94 there was a potential super fight ready to take place at superbantamweight between Kennedy McKinney and Tracy Harris Patterson. Both had a great fan base and were HBO stars. It would have been a mega-fight for their bank accounts. So what happened? They both farted around instead of signing the contract and both lost their respective titles within days of each other to Vuyani Bungu and Hector Acero Sanchez. Two fighters that wouldn't draw flies. So again, I don't have an issue with a fighter striking while the iron is hot. Sometimes it hurts like back in the '40s after the war, some really good fighters were overlooked so the comebacking champ could make a few bucks, but that is a difference from a lucky champ just trying to make one big payday.

[gp.]

Undeserved challenger or not...if Martin's top rated opponent blew a knee out he still won the title fair and square... Defending the title against a high ranking challenger was then legitimate business for him.. Martin could have fought a couple Jean Pierre Coopman's, Don Cockell's, Brian London's and Chuck Wepner's before taking on Joshua.. Put a little money in the piggy bank.. He went straight for the gold.

Out of interest, who do you think Charles Martin could have defended his title against that :-
1. He had a > 80% chance of beating so he didn't lose the Joshua match
2. Enough people would have paid to see to make it worth doing to "put a little money in the piggy bank"

I honestly can't think of anyone.

[L.A. kidd]

there were many that cus d' amato hand picked for patterson,

roy harris, pete rademacher, tom Mcneely, tommy jackson, brian london

[Ambling Alp II]

Jackson was a legitimate title defense. He was the #1 contender and had given Patterson a tough fight in the tournament to succeed Marciano.

Harris wasn't that bad. He had beaten a couple of contenders.
London wasn't that good but there have been worse.
McNeeley was undeserving; he had a pretty win/loss record but had no wins worth mentioning.
Rademacher was of course completely undeserving.

[Kalan]

Jackson was a legitimate title defense. He was the #1 contender and had given Patterson a tough fight in the tournament to succeed Marciano.

Harris wasn't that bad. He had beaten a couple of contenders.
London wasn't that good but there have been worse.
McNeeley was undeserving; he had a pretty win/loss record but had no wins worth mentioning.
Rademacher was of course completely undeserving.

Harris had poor skills. Liston flattened him inside a round in a fight Harris was totally unable to defend himself. How Liston got that fight is a puzzle.

London fought hard in the Patterson fight because he thought he had a chance, but he canned the fight in the 11th. He stumbled down and could have gotten up. And London ditched the Ali fight early to escape a bad beating. He took a soft flurry and dived for the canvas. Boxers frequently look for a soft spot on the canvas when they know they're badly over-matched. Why get mugged??? Do you want to take 3 punches in round 3 that you can look in and brace for -- or take 200 punches over the course of the next 12 rounds??? London was paid 125,000 dollars for Ali and didn't want to spend it on medical bills. London refused to say he would beat Ali, which is contrary to tradition. "I'll have a go" is all he would say to a Cosell who was full of contempt.

McNeeley was a punching bag. Strickly a swinger like Chuck Wepner -- who BTW Duane Bobick beat up and stopped. Bobick also knocked out Scott Ledoux, so he wasn't the 100% loser that he looked whenever he was badly over-matched. You can sense when a match-up is going to suck to beat Hell.

Rademacher dominated Patterson for the first 2 rounds and decked him hard... Top professionals make adjustments that amateurs cannot make.

[Grant]

If Terry Daniels could get a shot, so should have Mac Foster.

I remember Mac Foster, can't quite think why, but from memory he was hovering around the top 10 at some stage?

[Kalan]

Undeserved challenger or not...if Martin's top rated opponent blew a knee out he still won the title fair and square... Defending the title against a high ranking challenger was then legitimate business for him.. Martin could have fought a couple Jean Pierre Coopman's, Don Cockell's, Brian London's and Chuck Wepner's before taking on Joshua.. Put a little money in the piggy bank.. He went straight for the gold.

Because he knew there was every chance of the Coopmans, Cockells or Wepners beating him before he got the chance of the big money fight.

Not a chance of that -- if he dug up a couple of challengers like Herbie Hide fought before he took on Klitschko... They're still Title Fights and good MONEY!

[gp.]

Undeserved challenger or not...if Martin's top rated opponent blew a knee out he still won the title fair and square... Defending the title against a high ranking challenger was then legitimate business for him.. Martin could have fought a couple Jean Pierre Coopman's, Don Cockell's, Brian London's and Chuck Wepner's before taking on Joshua.. Put a little money in the piggy bank.. He went straight for the gold.

Because he knew there was every chance of the Coopmans, Cockells or Wepners beating him before he got the chance of the big money fight.

Not a chance of that -- if he dug up a couple of challengers like Herbie Hide fought before he took on Klitschko... They're still Title Fights and good MONEY!

Ali and Louis could fight bums and get good money for it because people were paying to see Ali or Louis. Martin couldn't fight a bum and get paid for it, because nobody knew who he was. Herbie Hide was pretty well-known in the UK. but even so the fights you refer to were undercard fights - the WBO was not highly regarded at the time. One of them was on the undercard to Eubank and Hamed, so it was just a filler.

Give me a name. Who do you think Martin could have fought, been guaranteed to beat, and still sold tickets for?

[Nile4000]

If Terry Daniels could get a shot, so should have Mac Foster.

I remember Mac Foster, can't quite think why, but from memory he was hovering around the top 10 at some stage?

From around 69-71, 72. Was top contender, kayoed by Quarry,never recovered from that. Joe could have still fought him.

[Heartbreak_Kid79]

This is not for the unified title- the WBA variation but...

Audley Harrison must be worth a shout

Failed to live up to his hype, had already lost to 2 British domestic level guys.... and got a world title shot on the back of winning a prizefighter tournament (3 round fights), against mid level British domestic guys.
He was never ranked anywhere near any top 10, and probably the bets name on his record was Danny Williams (who had already beaten Audley)

And when it came to the crunch he landed maybe one punch in 3 rounds when destroyed by David Haye.
And Haye bet on himself for round 3, otherwise the fighter could have been even quicker

[Bodyshot3]

This is not for the unified title- the WBA variation but...

Audley Harrison must be worth a shout

Failed to live up to his hype, had already lost to 2 British domestic level guys.... and got a world title shot on the back of winning a prizefighter tournament (3 round fights), against mid level British domestic guys.
He was never ranked anywhere near any top 10, and probably the bets name on his record was Danny Williams (who had already beaten Audley)

And when it came to the crunch he landed maybe one punch in 3 rounds when destroyed by David Haye.
And Haye bet on himself for round 3, otherwise the fighter could have been even quicker

That's a fair shout, Haye got a gift-wrapped, fat pay cheque that night although to be fair some posters have unearthed folk even less deserving/able than Audley.

Harrison always talked such a great game and knew how to sell his fights - seem to recall that he really excelled for this one - "this time I am fit, got the right team in place and I am going to use my size, speed and power the right way."

PR wise he was a special fighter and let's not forget that he had Haye riding shotgun who was not too shabby on this front either to help him sell this farce:roll:

[Kalan]

Because he knew there was every chance of the Coopmans, Cockells or Wepners beating him before he got the chance of the big money fight.

Not a chance of that -- if he dug up a couple of challengers like Herbie Hide fought before he took on Klitschko... They're still Title Fights and good MONEY!

Ali and Louis could fight bums and get good money for it because people were paying to see Ali or Louis. Martin couldn't fight a bum and get paid for it, because nobody knew who he was. Herbie Hide was pretty well-known in the UK. but even so the fights you refer to were undercard fights - the WBO was not highly regarded at the time. One of them was on the undercard to Eubank and Hamed, so it was just a filler.

Give me a name. Who do you think Martin could have fought, been guaranteed to beat, and still sold tickets for?

Robert Helenius.. Tom Schwarz.. and Gary Cornish.. I would hype the great looking records... 1 undefeated guy and 2 guys with 1 loss... They're all great big, very tall, personable, and they speak English.. Plus they don't look or sound anything like Chris Arreola or Artur Szpilka.

[tagjohnson]

Leon Spinks, Jewey Smith.

[Syntax Error]

Leon Spinks, Jewey Smith.

Leon Spinks was the first name I thought of, put I didn't post it because Leon didn't read the script & went out & won it!

[Syntax Error]

This is not for the unified title- the WBA variation but...

Audley Harrison must be worth a shout

Failed to live up to his hype, had already lost to 2 British domestic level guys.... and got a world title shot on the back of winning a prizefighter tournament (3 round fights), against mid level British domestic guys.
He was never ranked anywhere near any top 10, and probably the bets name on his record was Danny Williams (who had already beaten Audley)

And when it came to the crunch he landed maybe one punch in 3 rounds when destroyed by David Haye.
And Haye bet on himself for round 3, otherwise the fighter could have been even quicker

Completely correct.

'Parcel Force' was truly pathetic that night & I don't know how he ever got paid; his purse should have been revoked & he should have just had his training expenses covered.

Haye wasn't much better for trying to sell that farce as a title defence & for carrying the timid 'Parcel Force' into the third round just for the sake of a bet.

[elmersalsa]

Marvis Frazier...End of story! He got a title shot because of the legendary success of his dad. Smokin' Joe should have never thrown him to the shark tank.

[elmersalsa]

Top 5 undeserving heavyweight challenges:
Marvis Frazier
Joe "King" Roman
Pete Radamecher
Terry Daniels
Any boxer from "The Bum of the Month" club.

[sweetviolenturge]

I'm going to limit my comments to those contests that I've actually witnessed live.
Begining with the very first boxing match that I ever watched, the scintillating contest between "The Lion of Flanders" Jean Pierre Coopman. Who to my 14-year-old eyes seemed to go down with every solid blow that Ali landed in their five round affair.
Then there was Tommy Morrison's lone successful title defense against the intrepid Tim Tomacheck who jumped into the fray when another undeserving challenger in Mike Williams bizarrely refused to come out of the locker room.
Then there was the shell of a fighter in Michael Dokes who was blown out in one round by Riddick Bowe, who seemingly got said title shot on the basis of getting knocked unconscious by Razor Ruddock the previous year.
Scott Ledoux comes to mind as he'd lost his previous couple of fights against faded Ron Lyle & Mike Weaver before getting a dubious decision win over Marty Monroe which paved his way to his challenge of Larry Homles. But I won't complain about his title shot as he was a good soldier who hung tough with some of the best the division had to offer over the course of his career.
Alfredo Evangelista was a two-time undeserving challenger as he actually was awarded his initial opportunity vs Muhammad Ali off of an 8 round decision loss to Lorenzo Zanon. Then after winning a couple of wins over the likes of Dante Cane he struggled through a 10 round split nod over journeyman Jodie Ballard on his way to becoming Larry Holmes' first title defense. Amazingly enough, Evangelista very nearly got a third shot at a heavyweight championship when he was scheduled to challenge WBA champion, Gerrie Coetzee in South Africa after Alfredo had one a dubious decision over Renaldo Snipes in an atrocious fight. But the fight was canceled in favor of giving an almost equally undeserving Greg Page who had lost his previous two fights to Tim Witherspoon & David Bey a shot. Which he actually won via KO8 in an upset.
Although I've seen many here mention Marvis Frazier as one of the worst title challengers of all time ( & deservedly so ) I couldn't place him in my top ( bottom? ) five because when compared to the previous five fighters I spoke of his wins over Joe Bugner & a then unbeaten fellow prospect/fringe contender James Broad are better than what those other five accomplished before they received their opportunities. With the possible exception of Ledoux who was also coming off of draws with Leon Spinks & Ken Norton recent to his title shot.

[Ambling Alp II]

I agree that Marvis should not have been fighting for a title so soon. However, as mentioned he had a couple of decent wins. There were some guys who were even more undeserving.

I don't count Tomashek. The WBO was not considered a major title. Nobody considered Tommy Morrison the real champion.
Coopman and Evangelista were horrible. LeDoux was a notch better thought he obviously had no chance vs Holmes.

Rademacher has to be No.1 . He never won a professional fight before fighting for the title. That just seems so unfair when you think of all the heavyweights out there who had been battling for years and never got a shot.

[tagjohnson]

Lorenzo Zanon

[Ambling Alp II]

Zanon actually wasn't that bad. He had pretty good boxing skills. He just had no chin. He was actually a head of Norton until he got stopped.