Jimmy Ellis V Henry Cooper, who wins?

[KOJOE90]

I believe that this fight was talked about at one time around 67/68? but the BBBC objected much to Coopers disgust.

I don't think that it would have been a missmatch, Ellis was not a big Heavyweight or a huge puncher and Cooper was dangerous with his left hook.

Havng said that Ellis was a smart boxer, if he could (with Dundees help) outsmart Jerry Quarry I think he could outsmart Cooper and avoid his left hook, unlike his stablemate Ali (1st fight).

When Cooper stepped into the top level he usually got stopped, I go for Ellis to outbox Cooper for about 6 rounds before turning up the heat to stop the brave Brit in around 10 rounds.

[Jaclem]

a toughie, kayo. the first thought is to pick ellis...but then i keep remembering how impressed i was when i saw it on live tv and in looking at it many times....in the first fight with ali how fast cooper was. the young clay was at his speediest then but cooper is right on top of him all the way. i suppose the old cooper bugaboo....getting cut...would make it come out in ellis' favor...as ellis was pretty good at snappy combination punching. obviously not one of the great dream fights, but interesting enough to pondere while dozing off for an afternoon nap.

[overhand_right]

ellis by easy kayo.

ellis with his punch and movemtn would make mince meat out of cooper and his paper skin.

wasnt cooper kayo'd in 2 by zora folley?

[The_Power]

Once again i agree with overhand

This is a total mismatch imho, ellis would beat Cooper with ease, he has to be one of the most overrated fighters ever, he lived off one left hook for most of his career.

[Gary1970]

I think Cooper has a chance in this one. Ellis was a good boxer and underrated puncher,but Cooper was a good puncher as well. Cooper by split decision

[Kalan]

This would NOT be a competitive contest... Cooper or his people turned down fights with Liston, Chuvalo, Frazier, Bonavena, and many others... He was a very small Heavyweight who compiled a 40-14-1 record while fighting almost always in the UK... always in Europe... and never once in the United States.

Patterson had little trouble with Cooper flattening him in 4 -- but lost to Ellis in 15 in a disputed decision.. Other Americans who beat Cooper where Amos Johnson, Zora Folley, Muhammad Ali, and Roger Rischer ... Top British and European Heavyweights also worked Henry over pretty good.

Right after Ali beat Jimmy Ellis, he called him "the best boxer in the world" -- which is what Ali said about Ellis a number of times. He recognized his win over Ellis was more due to his height, reach, and 31-pound weight advantage than it had to do with boxing skills... Though Ellis was a Middleweight for many of his career fights -- he had less trouble than Ali had out-boxing crude swingers like Bonavena and Chuvalo.

I wouldn't call Cooper crude in the skills department -- but he wasn't a real good boxer either.. He was wonderful person who did as well as he could with what limited talent he had -- which wasn't nearly enough to beat Ellis. Jimmy would stop him between the 2nd and 7th rounds, probably by KO.

[jaclem3]

kalan has covered this so well i don't see what anyone has to add.

[dalcumly]

Cooper didn't turn down fights with either Frazier or Bonavena because he was never offered a fight with either. He was due to fight Chuvalo but Cooper's Italian sparring partner out pointed Chuvalo in London so there was no longer any promoter interested in staging a Cooper v Chuvalo match.
Cooper's manager, Jim Wicks, did say he wanted nothing to do with Liston. I have a theory about this, because at the time Liston was the principal challenger to Patterson, so why would Wicks say his man couldn't cope with a potential future opponent. Cooper had just beaten Folley and was in the top 3 challengers Patterson. Wicks had met Angelo Dundee's brother in Miami some years previous and was told that if offered Liston in the future to avoid him at all costs. Not because of his punching power alone , but due to his Mafia links.
It's only opinions isn't it, but Cooper was disgusted at not getting the chance to fight Ellis because he was confident of winning . Ellis was NOT Patterson. I think Cooper would have knocked him out.

[Ambling Alp II]

Though lacked Patterson's power and speed, Ellis was an excellent boxer with a better chin than Patterson. He did have more trouble with Chuvalo and Bonavena than Ali did, but he won the fights nevertheless. Ellis was outweighed by almost 30 pounds against Chuvalo, but as is often the case skill trumped size.

Cooper wasn't afraid of anyone. Nonsense that he turned down fights. However he was a very limited fighter. Ellis was simply better. He was much too slick. Cooper would only have a remote puncher's chance. Ellis would probably win on a late stoppage or comfortable points decision.

[dalcumly]

Yes I hear what people are saying and you might be correct about Ellis. However, when Cooper was 'fully' prepared and focused on a fight he usually did well. Cooper was always in training ( he considered it his job) and some of the fights he lost were bouts he took while training routinely which meant his sparring was limited and usually consisted of his brother and any others around the gym.
For big fights ( Clay/Ali/ second Folley fight, Patterson) the training was stepped up and specific sparring was arranged. There are many who believed he was ahead in both fights against Clay/ali before the cuts. These I think give a good indication as to how he would have fared against Ellis.The second Folley fight and the one with Patterson, there can be no excuses. A big right hand from Folley, timed to perfection over Cooper's left jab, took the feet from him. Patterson's hand speed caught Cooper, who seemed to be comfortable and confident when the knockout came.
I wrote a book about Henry last year ,and I've got to watch I'm not being biased when I make comments. He was a hero of mine growing up in the 60's. However, having watched many fights for the book, some quite rare, there is no doubt in my mind that if he caught you with the left you were in serious trouble. But he was predictable. Johansson and Folley ( 2nd fight) did their homework and were just waiting to counter. Patterson was just at a different level.

[Kalan]

Yes I hear what people are saying and you might be correct about Ellis. However, when Cooper was 'fully' prepared and focused on a fight he usually did well ... he was predictable. Johansson and Folley ( 2nd fight) did their homework and were just waiting to counter. Patterson was just at a different level.

Boxer's on Cooper's level are generally fully focused and prepared for all their fights -- to the extent they CAN be given their limited talent. The fact he paid attention to what he was doing is reflected in Cooper's record of 40-15-1.

He won 71% of his fights which means he's a qualified success story. He had a far better attitude and work ethic than many fighters with far greater talent like Jerry Quarry and Buster Mathis – and I would dare to say Ingemar Johannson.

However, Henry was over-matched against top contenders like Amos Johnson and Zora Folley – and greatly over-matched against World Champion caliber opponents such as Ali, Patterson, and Johannson... Ellis was also a Champion caliber fighter, and at the top of his game would have done Henry in.

Cooper had a dangerous left hook and Ali was very easy to hit with sharp left hooks. I had Clay an 8/1 favorite, but knew Cooper had a formidable answer to Clay’s biggest weakness – much like Schmeling was a dangerous opponent for Louis. Had Henry nailed Clay with that big left hook in the first 2 minutes of the 4th round, he might have finished Clay off and achieved top contention for the feared Sonny Liston.

Whew baby!!! ... Can you imagine THAT match-up??? ... It’s just as well for Henry that he nailed Clay in the final seconds of the round.

[Nile4000]

Jimmy would outbox Henry for that ud win.

[Ambling Alp II]

Yes I hear what people are saying and you might be correct about Ellis. However, when Cooper was 'fully' prepared and focused on a fight he usually did well. Cooper was always in training ( he considered it his job) and some of the fights he lost were bouts he took while training routinely which meant his sparring was limited and usually consisted of his brother and any others around the gym.
For big fights ( Clay/Ali/ second Folley fight, Patterson) the training was stepped up and specific sparring was arranged. There are many who believed he was ahead in both fights against Clay/ali before the cuts. These I think give a good indication as to how he would have fared against Ellis.The second Folley fight and the one with Patterson, there can be no excuses. A big right hand from Folley, timed to perfection over Cooper's left jab, took the feet from him. Patterson's hand speed caught Cooper, who seemed to be comfortable and confident when the knockout came.
I wrote a book about Henry last year ,and I've got to watch I'm not being biased when I make comments. He was a hero of mine growing up in the 60's. However, having watched many fights for the book, some quite rare, there is no doubt in my mind that if he caught you with the left you were in serious trouble. But he was predictable. Johansson and Folley ( 2nd fight) did their homework and were just waiting to counter. Patterson was just at a different level.

Would like to read your book sometime.
The only round he won against Clay was the 4th when he knocked Clay down for a pudendum of three. He lost the the first three and was losing the 5th round when the fight was stopped. He didn't win a round in the rematch against Ali.

Still he did score a knockdown against Clay with his left hook. That has to count for something. Ali had little trouble with left hooks or anything else during his career. Joe Frazier was the only fighter to score a knockdown with a left hook against Ali.

Cooper did well in the first Folley fight though the decision was dubious. Cooper did have other solid performances; he could have got the decision against Bugner for example.

It's conceivable that he could give Ellis trouble or even win. However, not likely.

[Caractacus]

here is some trivia for you.
In how many of his losses (15),
was Henry Cooper ahead on points in a fight before the ref stopped the fight due to a cut(s) ? (if any).

[Kalan]

If the USD – what happens to the price of oil? Goes + Takes more Dollars to buy.

If the USD + and The Euro – where to you want to buy gold? In Europe with Dollars.

If that is inverse you want to sell gold in the US.

GLD/USD and EUR/GLD have an intrinsic relationship... They’re the same.

If correlation can’t break down it’s an intrinsic relationship.

Ali had little trouble with left hooks or anything else during his career. Joe Frazier was the only fighter to score a knockdown with a left hook against Ali

Bullcrap!!! ... Frazier put a drumbeat of left hooks on Ali besides knocking him flat on his back in the 15th... In his first 31 fights Ali was knocked down 3 X with left hooks by Joe Frazier, Henry Cooper, and Sonny Banks... Ali never learned how to slip or duck punches very well so he got nailed a lot...

It was either in his autobiography or the George Plimpton book, where Ali said he’d get hurt in the ring and a giant door would swing open and inside he saw neon, orange and green lights blinking. There were bats blowing trumpets and alligators playing trombones. Ali could hear snakes screaming. Weird masks and actors’ clothes hung on a wall. If he stepped across the sill and reached for them he knew he was committing himself to destruction. Frightenly weird stuff, but a boxer once told me was out on his feet from a punch and saw his deceased parents. They looked perfect, like 20 years old. His pet cat who died when he was 10 jumped into his lap from out of a wonderful tree in a beautiful valley. Hallucinations. Boxers do get ‘em.

[ClivePatrickLyons]

Ellis wins a very close split dec after climbing off the canvas twice in the last round to barely survive

[ClivePatrickLyons]

This would NOT be a competitive contest... Cooper or his people turned down fights with Liston, Chuvalo, Frazier, Bonavena, and many others... He was a very small Heavyweight who compiled a 40-14-1 record while fighting almost always in the UK... always in Europe... and never once in the United States.

Patterson had little trouble with Cooper flattening him in 4 -- but lost to Ellis in 15 in a disputed decision.. Other Americans who beat Cooper where Amos Johnson, Zora Folley, Muhammad Ali, and Roger Rischer ... Top British and European Heavyweights also worked Henry over pretty good.

Right after Ali beat Jimmy Ellis, he called him "the best boxer in the world" -- which is what Ali said about Ellis a number of times. He recognized his win over Ellis was more due to his height, reach, and 31-pound weight advantage than it had to do with boxing skills... Though Ellis was a Middleweight for many of his career fights -- he had less trouble than Ali had out-boxing crude swingers like Bonavena and Chuvalo.

I wouldn't call Cooper crude in the skills department -- but he wasn't a real good boxer either.. He was wonderful person who did as well as he could with what limited talent he had -- which wasn't nearly enough to beat Ellis. Jimmy would stop him between the 2nd and 7th rounds, probably by KO.

Stop making up thing's that are not true Cooper dodged who when was these fight's offered show me the fact's because I wouldn't believe a word you say i'v caught you out before trying to fib so you can get your point across facts only no look theres smoke so that's a fire so Ali called his stable mate and fellow Louiville fighter the what your getting worst mate.

[dalcumly]

here's the breakdown of Cooper's losses for Caractacus.

Bacilieri - won first round fight stopped on cuts round 2. ( Bacilieri ko'd round 7, 5 months later). Erskine - lost on points. Bates - won every round until stopped on cuts round 5. Bygraves - lost by KO punch to stomach round 9. Ko'd by Johansson round 5. Erskine - points over 15. Shoeppner - disqualified round 6 ( In Germany AFTER KNOCKING the German OUT !!!!). Folley - ko'd round 2. Clay - cut eye round 5 ( Cooper definately won the first and fourth rounds!!). Rischer - points over 10. Amos Johnson - points over 10 . Ali - cut eye round 6 ,most observers had fight even at that time. Patterson KO round 4. Bugner - points ( I scored the fight a draw.)

[Ambling Alp II]

If the USD – what happens to the price of oil? Goes + Takes more Dollars to buy.

If the USD + and The Euro – where to you want to buy gold? In Europe with Dollars.

If that is inverse you want to sell gold in the US.

GLD/USD and EUR/GLD have an intrinsic relationship... They’re the same.

If correlation can’t break down it’s an intrinsic relationship.

Ali had little trouble with left hooks or anything else during his career. Joe Frazier was the only fighter to score a knockdown with a left hook against Ali

Bullcrap!!! ... Frazier put a drumbeat of left hooks on Ali besides knocking him flat on his back in the 15th... In his first 31 fights Ali was knocked down 3 X with left hooks by Joe Frazier, Henry Cooper, and Sonny Banks... Ali never learned how to slip or duck punches very well so he got nailed a lot...

It was either in his autobiography or the George Plimpton book, where Ali said he’d get hurt in the ring and a giant door would swing open and inside he saw neon, orange and green lights blinking. There were bats blowing trumpets and alligators playing trombones. Ali could hear snakes screaming. Weird masks and actors’ clothes hung on a wall. If he stepped across the sill and reached for them he knew he was committing himself to destruction. Frightenly weird stuff, but a boxer once told me was out on his feet from a punch and saw his deceased parents. They looked perfect, like 20 years old. His pet cat who died when he was 10 jumped into his lap from out of a wonderful tree in a beautiful valley. Hallucinations. Boxers do get ‘em.

I meant the only other fighter to score a knockdown with a left hook against Ali. I mentioned the Cooper knockdown earlier. The Banks knockdown was not a left hook. Ali went down twice (each time for a count of three) in a 61-fight career from left hooks.

[Kalan]

It's not what you mean but what you post that messes you up.

The Sonny Banks knockdown was most assuredly a short, snappy left hook. It's been written about a million times but you're oblivious to facts.

[Caractacus]

what other fights was Henry Cooper set to fight,but didn't pan out for one reason or another ?

[Kalan]

Cooper was all set to get a Title Fight with Muhammad Ali if he beat Amos Johnson in a title eliminator... The fight was in England and Cooper was favored to win... However Johnson proved to be way too slick for Cooper, decking him with a tricky left hook and out-boxing him all the way.. The British press wrote that Cooper blew his title opportunity and was beyond the point in his career where he could contend for a Title Fight in the future.

But that's not the way Boxing works.. Ali wanted to fight Cooper not Johnson.. Henry got a couple of quick KO's over non-contenders and the shot at Ali.

[klompton]

Ali was down against Bonavena on a left hook as well. It was ruled a slip but if a fighter goes down on the end of a punch its supposed to be ruled a KD. Bad call IMO but either way it was a left hook that caused the "slip."

[Ambling Alp II]

Just watched it. From the angle shown, I don't think you can tell if the punch actually landed. Hard to tell if the referee was in position to see it.

[dalcumly]

Cooper v Amos Johnson

I have the full fight on DVD. Cooper was not at his best and was floored a couple of times from low blows and on both occasions the referee warned johnson. It was foul filled fight with neither boxer dominating. Scrappy affair and Cooper admitted in an interview in the dressing room that he knew from the first round that his timing was out. I could have scored the fight either way to be honest. Johnson was absolutely astonished that he got the decision and for about 30 seconds after his hand was raised didn't full realise he'd got it. He then went berserk jumping all over the place.
In those days British referees were known for their 'fairness' to foreign boxers typified by the decision in 1961 to award the fight to Joe Brown against Dave Charnley , an outcome which caused a mini riot in front of 18,000 fans.I also wrote Charnley's biography and have that fight as well on DVD. Charnley was robbed.