Tuan_Jim wrote:Delaying a Bowe/Lewis super fight made perfect sense financially - but Bowe eating his way out of the title wasn't part of the script.
A curiously forgotten part of the Bowe/Lewis tale is that in June 1994 they signed for a mega fight that would be staged early 1995. This was extensively covered in the press, but the narrative has not managed to drift into the consciousness of cyberspace, for whatever reason. All Lewis and Bowe needed to do was survive their next opponents: Oliver McCall and Larry Donald. The script said easy nights for Lewis and Bowe. Reality was easy nights for McCall and Bowe.
HBO and Bowe tried to entice Lewis into a big money fight in 1996. Lewis opted to fight the 36 year old Ray Mercer for far less money. Bowe turned his attention to a Mike Tyson mega fight and in the interim took an easy looking fight with undefeated Andrew Golota. . . .
I like both Lewis and Bowe. I rooted for Lewis throughout his career. I always thought Bowe had too complete a skillset for him - especially in 1993. Bowe was a fully developed fighting machine. Lewis meanwhile was firing on about three cylinders.
Amateur results mean nothing. So what if Lewis, an experienced man, beat Bowe, an inexperienced boy. Tyrell Biggs did the same thing in 84 vs Lennox Lewis. When they met in the pros it was man vs man. Jorge Luis Gonzalez gave Bowe a far worse beating than Lewis did. That must have played on Bowe's mind in training, because it brought out one of the most focussed and fearsome versions of Big Daddy that we ever saw. Bowe's deep hatred for Lennox Lewis would have conjured up the same sort of animal, and I think Lewis' deficiencies would cost him dearly.
I find this sensible
Caractus....it's quite possible that Bowe's merciful decision saved Lewis' life. So be happy that it all worked out.
Tuan_Jim has pretty much covered what happened and why the fight never came off.
I have to say that up until 96 I’m pretty sure Bowe had a little too much. Lewis post Mercer seemed far more seasoned and I think that’s when he peaked. But at that point Bowe was a fading force.
If 95 Bowe fights 97 Lewis…?
I like Lewis. But I can see both sides.
For me Lewis was the better all-round fighter. But he had more obvious weaknesses than Bowe.
i used to think bowe wouklda beaten lewis in 93 but now 20 plus yrs past i dont hink so ,look how hittable bowe was against biggs/tubbs/ and man bowe got a hit against the tough but not to hard of a puncher in pierre coetzer, so if hes that hittable against those guys i really doubt hes gonna take that big lennox right hand that he rememeber oh so well in 88
I've said this before, but when discussing Bowe, a lot of people tend to get carried away with themselves. This whole Riddick Bowe mania comes from this fighter having one or two good performances in the 90s.
I would argue that the same overreaction/mania could be given to Buster Douglas or Leon Spinks.
He had a lot more than one or two good performances. Holyfield did seem off in their third fight, but Bowe performed well except for the knockdown. He could have got the decision or at least a draw in the 2nd fight. He had several other fights where he looked very good.
Douglas and Spikns had multiple fights where they lost to lesser fighters. Bowe won all those fights.
Crease wrote:I've said this before, but when discussing Bowe, a lot of people tend to get carried away with themselves. This whole Riddick Bowe mania comes from this fighter having one or two good performances in the 90s.
I would argue that the same overreaction/mania could be given to Buster Douglas or Leon Spinks.
Well, this is certainly the sort of wisdom that comes from too much time spent in the simulator. Don't even know where to begin on this one. So I'll just pretend it was never said.
BoxBuzz wrote:Well, this is certainly the sort of wisdom that comes from too much time spent in the simulator. Don't even know where to begin on this one. So I'll just pretend it was never said.
Lewis wasn't half the fighter he became after he teamed up with Steward. Not only was he physically smaller, but his technique and overall approach was just too raw. No way in hell is 1997 Lewis getting outboxed by Frank Bruno.
As for the thread, I agree. The fight would have happened in 1993 had Bowe accepted the challenge and Lewis almost certainly would have lost.
Well is that why he[Bowe] wouldn't touch Lewis with a ten foot pole Because he would have knocked him out and really hurt Lewis
and he[Bowe] didn't want that
ClivePatrickLyons wrote:Well is that why he[Bowe] wouldn't touch Lewis with a ten foot pole Because he would have knocked him out and really hurt Lewis
and he[Bowe] didn't want that
There is irony in the whole Lewis Bowe debate...but this carrys it into bizarro status. lol.
I don't think he was afraid...I do think he was poorly advised in an historic sense. Because at this point...though I hang with the idea that Bowe was better, and the likely winner, I think that Bowe having passed on the opportunity to prove it, gets what he deserves in terms of assumptions. Bowe made it too easy for this to be the majority conclusion. So though I don't think it is accurate....I do think it is just.
When I saw Riddick Bowe fight the great Evander Holyfield, I have said that I have never seen such a talented big man. Bowe could really fight on the inside and was technical equipped. He really improved a lot since the '88 Olympics.
But, after he won the heavyweight crown, I don't think that his desire for training and dedication was there. To me, Bowe is the most talented big man I have ever seen in my lifetime. No way Lennox Lewis beats him. Bowe of the 1st Holyfield fight beats ANY VERSION of Lewis, and twice on Sunday.
Lewis would have knocked out Bowe, no doubt about it, Lewis was better against bigger guys, whilst Bowe beat mostly smaller guys, his best performance was his first fight with Holyfield, but all their 3 fights were back and forth wars, Lewis dominated Holyfield, Bowe got bashed up by Golota, yet Lewis smashed Golota, when Lewis and Bowe met in the Olympic final, Bowe choked it and got stopped by Lewis, that's why Bowe threw his belt in the bin , rather then defend against Lewis, even though he was all up in the face of Lewis just after he had won the title against Holyfield.
bnovelist wrote:Bowe sold himself short! He was too strong and applied too much pressure to lose to Lewis anytime 92-96. Lewis had a horrible time with Ray
Mercer who was much shorter and also Holyfield as well! He even had trouble with Shannon Briggs! I assure you Bowe limited himself by not
taking care of Lennox Lewis he would have beaten Lennox as pro. Bowe was the BEST heavyweight in the 90s no doubt! Bowe not fighting Lennox
falls into the same bracket of Tyson leaving Kevin Rooney!
Why people think that is important is the big question.
As someone mentioned, Bowe beat Gonzalez in the pros after losing to him in the amateurs.
Joe Frazier beat Buster Mathis after losing to him in the Olympics Trials.
Marvis Frazier beat James Broad after being knocked silly by him in the Olympic Trials.
Tony Tubbs was 1-6 against Greg Page in the amateurs. He beat Page in the pros .
Mike Tyson beat Henry Tillman and Tyrell Biggs after losing to them in the amateurs.
Lewis himself lost to Biggs and Ruddock in the amateurs.
Lewis lost to Gonzales in the amateurs. Can we assume he ducked Gonzales in the pros?
Duane Bobick beat Larry Holmes in the amateurs. Who would pick him in the pros?
Max Marek beat Joe Louis in the amateurs. Would he have in the pros?
I understand why some people think would have won. However, because he did it in the amateurs is silly thinking.
Ambling Alp II wrote:Why people think that is important is the big question.
As someone mentioned, Bowe beat Gonzalez in the pros after losing to him in the amateurs.
Joe Frazier beat Buster Mathis after losing to him in the Olympics Trials.
Marvis Frazier beat James Broad after being knocked silly by him in the Olympic Trials.
Tony Tubbs was 1-6 against Greg Page in the amateurs. He beat Page in the pros .
Mike Tyson beat Henry Tillman and Tyrell Biggs after losing to them in the amateurs.
Lewis himself lost to Biggs and Ruddock in the amateurs.
Lewis lost to Gonzales in the amateurs. Can we assume he ducked Gonzales in the pros?
Duane Bobick beat Larry Holmes in the amateurs. Who would pick him in the pros?
Max Marek beat Joe Louis in the amateurs. Would he have in the pros?
I understand why some people think would have won. However, because he did it in the amateurs is silly thinking.
Where do you get all your amateur information from?
It is certainly a good argument with several good examples. - The only possible qualifier may lie in the fact that Lewis KOed Bowe. (It was a ref stoppage but I don't know how hurt Bowe was. You might?) -- In the examples you gave were there any future champs who had been stopped in the amateurs and then revenged the loss in the pros? I assuming Tyson doesn't fit that category vs. Tillman or Biggs; not sure if it actually matters, but a stoppage expresses more dominance to overcome.
Oh, I think Bowe would have beaten him Lewis; but with guys that big the fight is always just one punch from ending.
Ambling Alp II wrote:Why people think that is important is the big question.
As someone mentioned, Bowe beat Gonzalez in the pros after losing to him in the amateurs.
Joe Frazier beat Buster Mathis after losing to him in the Olympics Trials.
Marvis Frazier beat James Broad after being knocked silly by him in the Olympic Trials.
Tony Tubbs was 1-6 against Greg Page in the amateurs. He beat Page in the pros .
Mike Tyson beat Henry Tillman and Tyrell Biggs after losing to them in the amateurs.
Lewis himself lost to Biggs and Ruddock in the amateurs.
Lewis lost to Gonzales in the amateurs. Can we assume he ducked Gonzales in the pros?
Duane Bobick beat Larry Holmes in the amateurs. Who would pick him in the pros?
Max Marek beat Joe Louis in the amateurs. Would he have in the pros?
I understand why some people think would have won. However, because he did it in the amateurs is silly thinking.
Where do you get all your amateur information from?
It is certainly a good argument with several good examples. - The only possible qualifier may lie in the fact that Lewis KOed Bowe. (It was a ref stoppage but I don't know how hurt Bowe was. You might?) -- In the examples you gave were there any future champs who had been stopped in the amateurs and then revenged the loss in the pros? I assuming Tyson doesn't fit that category vs. Tillman or Biggs; not sure if it actually matters, but a stoppage expresses more dominance to overcome.
Oh, I think Bowe would have beaten him Lewis; but with guys that big the fight is always just one punch from ending.
Not sure where I heard everything from as far as the amateur fight go. Buster Mathis-Joe Frazier was very well known, I saw highlights of Bobick-Holmes many years a go. I saw James Broad brutually KO Marvis Frazier in the Olympics trials on TV. I saw there pro fight on national TV as well.
That was not a KO win for Lewis in the Olympics. Bowe won the first round. In the second round, the ref called a standing 8 count for no reason at all. Then he prematurely stopped the bout a few seconds later. That stoppage was ridiculous. It's on Youtube for anyone to watch it.
Ambling Alp II wrote:Why people think that is important is the big question.
As someone mentioned, Bowe beat Gonzalez in the pros after losing to him in the amateurs.
Joe Frazier beat Buster Mathis after losing to him in the Olympics Trials.
Marvis Frazier beat James Broad after being knocked silly by him in the Olympic Trials.
Tony Tubbs was 1-6 against Greg Page in the amateurs. He beat Page in the pros .
Mike Tyson beat Henry Tillman and Tyrell Biggs after losing to them in the amateurs.
Lewis himself lost to Biggs and Ruddock in the amateurs.
Lewis lost to Gonzales in the amateurs. Can we assume he ducked Gonzales in the pros?
Duane Bobick beat Larry Holmes in the amateurs. Who would pick him in the pros?
Max Marek beat Joe Louis in the amateurs. Would he have in the pros?
I understand why some people think would have won. However, because he did it in the amateurs is silly thinking.
Where do you get all your amateur information from?
It is certainly a good argument with several good examples. - The only possible qualifier may lie in the fact that Lewis KOed Bowe. (It was a ref stoppage but I don't know how hurt Bowe was. You might?) -- In the examples you gave were there any future champs who had been stopped in the amateurs and then revenged the loss in the pros? I assuming Tyson doesn't fit that category vs. Tillman or Biggs; not sure if it actually matters, but a stoppage expresses more dominance to overcome.
Oh, I think Bowe would have beaten him Lewis; but with guys that big the fight is always just one punch from ending.
Not sure where I heard everything from as far as the amateur fight go. Buster Mathis-Joe Frazier was very well known, I saw highlights of Bobick-Holmes many years a go. I saw James Broad brutually KO Marvis Frazier in the Olympics trials on TV. I saw there pro fight on national TV as well.
That was not a KO win for Lewis in the Olympics. Bowe won the first round. In the second round, the ref called a standing 8 count for no reason at all. Then he prematurely stopped the bout a few seconds later. That stoppage was ridiculous. It's on Youtube for anyone to watch it.
Under those circumstances it wasn't an emotional mountain for Bowe to climb; in fact, you would think Bowe would have wanted a second shot. - It is funny how the media exploits things, I remember well the controversy when Bowe refused to take on the challenge, belt - garbage - all that; I was ignorant of the actual amateur fight (even until yesterday as you just saw) but the media used the phrased 'KOed him in the amateurs' so often I (foolishly) assumed it had been a beat-down; can't remember anyone saying it was controversial or even that it ended with Bowe on his feet. I can remember one wag arguing that Bowe would naturally have great fear of any man who had previously KOed him; the media fed us a 'bogus KO - I bought it; I guess it worked for the controversy, it was, after all, Bowe who wouldn't take the fight. - I hate watching amateurs but will give this one a go,
Because he would have knocked him out and really hurt Lewis