I Am Confident That Bowe Would've Knocked Out Lewis

[APerno]

Why people think that is important is the big question.

As someone mentioned, Bowe beat Gonzalez in the pros after losing to him in the amateurs.
Joe Frazier beat Buster Mathis after losing to him in the Olympics Trials.
Marvis Frazier beat James Broad after being knocked silly by him in the Olympic Trials.
Tony Tubbs was 1-6 against Greg Page in the amateurs. He beat Page in the pros .
Mike Tyson beat Henry Tillman and Tyrell Biggs after losing to them in the amateurs.
Lewis himself lost to Biggs and Ruddock in the amateurs.
Lewis lost to Gonzales in the amateurs. Can we assume he ducked Gonzales in the pros?

Duane Bobick beat Larry Holmes in the amateurs. Who would pick him in the pros?
Max Marek beat Joe Louis in the amateurs. Would he have in the pros?

I understand why some people think would have won. However, because he did it in the amateurs is silly thinking.

Where do you get all your amateur information from?

It is certainly a good argument with several good examples. - The only possible qualifier may lie in the fact that Lewis KOed Bowe. (It was a ref stoppage but I don't know how hurt Bowe was. You might?) -- In the examples you gave were there any future champs who had been stopped in the amateurs and then revenged the loss in the pros? I assuming Tyson doesn't fit that category vs. Tillman or Biggs; not sure if it actually matters, but a stoppage expresses more dominance to overcome.

Oh, I think Bowe would have beaten him Lewis; but with guys that big the fight is always just one punch from ending.

Not sure where I heard everything from as far as the amateur fight go. Buster Mathis-Joe Frazier was very well known, I saw highlights of Bobick-Holmes many years a go. I saw James Broad brutually KO Marvis Frazier in the Olympics trials on TV. I saw there pro fight on national TV as well.

That was not a KO win for Lewis in the Olympics. Bowe won the first round. In the second round, the ref called a standing 8 count for no reason at all. Then he prematurely stopped the bout a few seconds later. That stoppage was ridiculous. It's on Youtube for anyone to watch it.

Horrible stoppage - a standing 8 for taking one punch (left hook) - a stoppage for taking a second punch (right to side of head) - couldn't see anything else land cleanly - clueless or crooked ref, pick one. -- Bowe should have wanted a second go; Bowe should have been angry!

[Klee Gluckman]

I agree Bowe probably wins pre 1995.

[Bodyshot3]

To make the case for Bowe...Lewis undoubtedly had his off nights, when things simply did not click and he unexpectedly fell apart.
Rahman smashed him in South Africa and even the much-maligned Bruno gave Lewis a helluva night in Cardiff before Lennox fixed matters.

But then again, these rare 'off nights' were against opponents Lewis somewhat overlooked and I dont think he would have ever seen Bowe as routine or anything less than worth his very best.

Lewis was at most his vulnerable when he got casual and he paid the full price against Hasim and Oliver - and he had a few surprises with Bruno and the awkward Croat Mavrovic - but against Bowe I think he brings his 'A' game.

[Noxy]

He would have had to fight him first.

[Kalan]

I agree Bowe probably wins pre 1995.

Bowe gets killed by Lewis... He refused to fight Lewis throwing his Title Belt into a trash can as a symbolic gesture that he could fight whoever and whenever he wanted... Bowe got hit in the head so much his title career never really got started... But he DID save himself from even more punishment by ducking the best punchers of his era: Mercer... Lewis... Tyson... McCall... Ruddock... Tua... and others... Golota couldn't box or punch and beat the crap out of him.

[BoxBuzz]

I agree Bowe probably wins pre 1995.

Bowe gets killed by Lewis... He refused to fight Lewis throwing his Title Belt into a trash can as a symbolic gesture that he could fight whoever and whenever he wanted... Bowe got hit in the head so much his title career never really got started... But he DID save himself from even more punishment by ducking the best punchers of his era: Mercer... Lewis... Tyson... McCall... Ruddock... Tua... and others... Golota couldn't box or punch and beat the crap out of him.

Kalan.....you sound to me like you Favor Lewis in this match up. Or were you just mumbling?

[Kalan]

You're the mumbler and stutterer... I guess if I state things emphatically enough---with heavy underlining---even you pick up on it.

[Ambling Alp II]

Hey lets do the thing where we pretend that competition doesn't count and just go by win/loss records.

Bowe beat the following undefeated fighters:
Evander Holyfield
Larry Donald
Herbie Hide
Jorge Gonzales
Andrew Golota

They were a combined 111-0 going into their fights with Bowe. Bowe beat all of them!

Or pretend that just because a guy won a WBS title he was great. (and pretend that the stage of their career doesn't count)

Bowe beat

Holyfield
Tubbs
Dokes
Thomas
Seldon

Plus, Bowe had a better win/loss record that Lewis!
Plus Bowe was never knocked out and Lewis was twice!

Case closed!

[APerno]

I (still) say Bowe over Lewis - but after watching the amateur fight I am bothered that Bowe didn't want a 'rematch.' He should have felt robbed.

[BoxBuzz]

I would put my money on Bowe......and I would cover every dollar that Kalan would actually put up on this fight....all $2.25 of them.

[Kalan]

Right... I don't put money on fantasy fights that the younger boxer refused to engage in -- because he's a natural born bully and scared stiff of big punchers.

And the reason for that fear is Bowe was one of the easiest Heavyweight Champs to punch right in the snooter... Golota never hit Lewis with punch 1.

[ERIC GUY]

the bowe fight with Lennox, was trying to get matched, I was working for Frank Maloney, and rock newman spent a whole weekend here in london, at panos eliades house to work out a deal, but he made so many demands, that the fight could not happen..so sad really, I believe Lennox would have won,.

[Kalan]

Everything Rock Newman did was for show... He was never interested in having Bowe fight Lewis... He knew how hittable Bowe was and LL would kill him.

[elmersalsa]

I would have put my money on Riddick Bowe. When in great shape, he was one of the best heavyweight BIG MEN whose talent was extraordinary.

[Kalan]

Bowe was utter CRAP!!! ... Took too many punches to the head and pretty soon he was in Zu Zu Land -- unable to finish off a tyro like Golota.

[BoxBuzz]

Bowe was utter CRAP!!! ... Took too many punches to the head and pretty soon he was in Zu Zu Land -- unable to finish off a tyro like Golota.

You've got a small part of the equation correct there Poindexter. I would agree that Bowe was more affected by punches than some other fighters. Every fighter has his own noggin DNA to contend with. Some can simply take more than others.....
If he was fashioned after Chuvalo or even Ali..he'd be fine today....he didnt' have a "glass chin" but he did have a "vulnerable cererbrum".

Duran may have been the all time pound for pound champ for ability to absorb head shots with nominal neuro deficits.

Bowe was obviously fragile in that dept. Makes me wonder if he trained without head protection.

[Kalan]

Bowe was utter CRAP!!! ... Took too many punches to the head and pretty soon he was in Zu Zu Land -- unable to finish off a tyro like Golota.

You've got a small part of the equation correct there Poindexter. I would agree that Bowe was more affected by punches than some other fighters. Every fighter has his own noggin DNA to contend with. Some can simply take more than others.....
If he was fashioned after Chuvalo or even Ali..he'd be fine today....he didnt' have a "glass chin" but he did have a "vulnerable cererbrum".

Duran may have been the all time pound for pound champ for ability to absorb head shots with nominal neuro deficits.

Bowe was obviously fragile in that dept. Makes me wonder if he trained without head protection.

It had nothing to do with his ability to absorb a shot... He took too many head shots... Willie Pep had 241 fights and 11 defeats... He was sort of okay after his boxing career because he didn't get hit that much... The greatest punishment Pep received during his career came from an airplane crash which iced him for a long stretch and killed some people aboard.. Even if you watch the Herbie Hide fight Bowe got peppered with head shots for 3 rounds before his mauling, brawling, roughhouse tactics took over.. Lewis murdered Ruddock, Golota, Grant, and other crude punchers like Bowe.

[APerno]

Duran may have been the all time pound for pound champ for ability to absorb head shots with nominal neuro deficits.

Bowe was obviously fragile in that dept. Makes me wonder if he trained without head protection.

I would go with JC Chevaz as well as Duran in that category.

There is of late a (medical) argument that the use of headgear and big training gloves, by allowing fighters to absorb many lesser blows over a long period of time (decades), has done more damage to fighters' brains than the limited numbers of big blows suffered in real fights, (with small gloves and no headgear.)

Whereas everyone today (finally) agrees that big blows (concussions) cause damage by tearing neurons, there is a new argument that claims even the smallest of blows to the head cause these neurons, not to tear, but instead stretch. This constant stretching (over decades) causes damage deep inside the brain, and eventually leads to permanent damage. This has caused a new anti-sparing (not ant-fighting) argument to rise.

Ironically (if this is true) the thing we used to keep us safe (headgear and big gloves) was just the right thing to insure a fighter could realistically absorb, over the course of a sparing day, two hundred punches, and not feel the impact for a decade. - It's almost a surprise the head gear wasn't also made of asbestos.

[BoxBuzz]

Some truth that every impact has potential for injury, wear, and tear.


However...some of us experience far less susceptibility to it. We are all a bit different, and we are finding out more about this with every passing year.


KO's can be far less troublesome than 100 good shots to the head. A fast KO loss is much more merciful than lasting the fight and taking a beating...that's true for nearly everyone.

But there are exceptions.


In another 10 years we will know if MMA fighters fare better than boxers...but so far the data does seem to support that grappling, and quick KO's are treating the MMA fighter much better than the toll that boxing has taken on it's participants. Some are already calling it a done deal....but you need about 25 good years of data before you can produce quality conclusions.

[Kalan]

Duran may have been the all time pound for pound champ for ability to absorb head shots with nominal neuro deficits.

Bowe was obviously fragile in that dept. Makes me wonder if he trained without head protection.

I would go with JC Chevaz as well as Duran in that category.

There is of late a (medical) argument that the use of headgear and big training gloves, by allowing fighters to absorb many lesser blows over a long period of time (decades), has done more damage to fighters' brains than the limited numbers of big blows suffered in real fights, (with small gloves and no headgear.)

Whereas everyone today (finally) agrees that big blows (concussions) cause damage by tearing neurons, there is a new argument that claims even the smallest of blows to the head cause these neurons, not to tear, but instead stretch. This constant stretching (over decades) causes damage deep inside the brain, and eventually leads to permanent damage. This has caused a new anti-sparing (not ant-fighting) argument to rise.

Ironically (if this is true) the thing we used to keep us safe (headgear and big gloves) was just the right thing to insure a fighter could realistically absorb, over the course of a sparing day, two hundred punches, and not feel the impact for a decade. - It's almost a surprise the head gear wasn't also made of asbestos.

You're misquoting me APerno... I never said anything about Duran being a great absorber.. or Chavez.. Neither got hit as much as Bowe and that's part of the reason they didn't fare that badly.. I also think the crap about headgrear is nonsense..

What really saves a boxer's brain is defense.. I never let a kid spar unless he had at least 2 months in the gym and unless he's learned how to block, parry, slip, duck, and roll punches with a fair amount of expertise, and could fire counters on the mitts sharply, accurately, smoothly, with decent power and leverage. The first time a kid spars he should look like he's been boxing for a while because real punches are coming at him. Right after sparring you go right to shadow boxing and the mitts to make corrections.. Defense isn't stressed enough in boxing.. Boxing is the art of self defense more than it's anything else.

[APerno]

I would go with JC Chevaz as well as Duran in that category.

There is of late a (medical) argument that the use of headgear and big training gloves, by allowing fighters to absorb many lesser blows over a long period of time (decades), has done more damage to fighters' brains than the limited numbers of big blows suffered in real fights, (with small gloves and no headgear.)

Whereas everyone today (finally) agrees that big blows (concussions) cause damage by tearing neurons, there is a new argument that claims even the smallest of blows to the head cause these neurons, not to tear, but instead stretch. This constant stretching (over decades) causes damage deep inside the brain, and eventually leads to permanent damage. This has caused a new anti-sparing (not ant-fighting) argument to rise.

Ironically (if this is true) the thing we used to keep us safe (headgear and big gloves) was just the right thing to insure a fighter could realistically absorb, over the course of a sparing day, two hundred punches, and not feel the impact for a decade. - It's almost a surprise the head gear wasn't also made of asbestos.

You're misquoting me APerno... I never said anything about Duran being a great absorber.. or Chavez.. Neither got hit as much as Bowe and that's part of the reason they didn't fare that badly.. I also think the crap about headgrear is nonsense..

What really saves a boxer's brain is defense.. I never let a kid spar unless he had at least 2 months in the gym and unless he's learned how to block, parry, slip, duck, and roll punches with a fair amount of expertise, and could fire counters on the mitts sharply, accurately, smoothly, with decent power and leverage. The first time a kid spars he should look like he's been boxing for a while because real punches are coming at him. Right after sparring you go right to shadow boxing and the mitts to make corrections.. Defense isn't stressed enough in boxing.. Boxing is the art of self defense more than it's anything else.

Sorry that was one of those screw ups that comes from editing the quotes - I was replying to Boxbuzz' remark and erroneously moved it under your name.

[montrealsuper]

You had a lot more confidence than Bowe or Rock Newman

[Ambling Alp II]

Can't believe that people take that garbage can thing seriously.

[BoxBuzz]

I would go with JC Chevaz as well as Duran in that category.

There is of late a (medical) argument that the use of headgear and big training gloves, by allowing fighters to absorb many lesser blows over a long period of time (decades), has done more damage to fighters' brains than the limited numbers of big blows suffered in real fights, (with small gloves and no headgear.)

Whereas everyone today (finally) agrees that big blows (concussions) cause damage by tearing neurons, there is a new argument that claims even the smallest of blows to the head cause these neurons, not to tear, but instead stretch. This constant stretching (over decades) causes damage deep inside the brain, and eventually leads to permanent damage. This has caused a new anti-sparing (not ant-fighting) argument to rise.

Ironically (if this is true) the thing we used to keep us safe (headgear and big gloves) was just the right thing to insure a fighter could realistically absorb, over the course of a sparing day, two hundred punches, and not feel the impact for a decade. - It's almost a surprise the head gear wasn't also made of asbestos.

You're misquoting me APerno... I never said anything about Duran being a great absorber.. or Chavez.. Neither got hit as much as Bowe and that's part of the reason they didn't fare that badly.. I also think the crap about headgrear is nonsense..

What really saves a boxer's brain is defense.. I never let a kid spar unless he had at least 2 months in the gym and unless he's learned how to block, parry, slip, duck, and roll punches with a fair amount of expertise, and could fire counters on the mitts sharply, accurately, smoothly, with decent power and leverage. The first time a kid spars he should look like he's been boxing for a while because real punches are coming at him. Right after sparring you go right to shadow boxing and the mitts to make corrections.. Defense isn't stressed enough in boxing.. Boxing is the art of self defense more than it's anything else.

On one hand I agree with you......defense defense defense and safety first! If that's the way you train your fellas, then I'm here to take back half of the bad things I have ever said about you.

On the other hand....you don't know the difference between your dork and a tube of toothpaste when it comes to head injury, (though it's easy to see that you often work at exploring and perhaps grasping the understanding.) Head gear DOES help, and it should be used at all times.....and they should be fashioning it more and more out of Temperpedic material. You can throw an egg as hard as you can into temperpedic material, and you can't break the egg.....works the same on the noggin. If your boxing.....get it today....fashion it yourself if you have to. Easy on the hands as well, I'm hoping that they start using it on heavy bags.....maybe even sparring gloves. Although the gloves could be a problem if you panic or flinch at the difference in the feel vs a real fight/real glove situation...it would need to be managed well.

[Ossyrules]

The only realistic discussion for this match should be when the fight roughly could have been. Not peak for peak, as each fighters peak don't marry up for this fantasy fight.

So basically pre 95. Bowe around then was beating Holyfield and generally accepted as the ring magazine number 1 heavyweight in the world. Lennox Lewis is slightly behind in comparison of his professional development, he's much more open for opponents to land punches, but he's much more attacking himself. It's a real hard call as Lennox was sharp on the offence in them days, but bowe was proven, better on the inside thanks to Eddie Futch. Matched Lennox physically also. 55-45 bowe. It's close to 50/50 fight though

After 96. Bowe on the decline quick. Call it indiscipline, call it the Holyfield trilogy wars, his level definitely drops. Lennox only gets better. Add in manny steward and Lennox becomes way tighter defensively, more selective on the offence, one of histories most dominant champions. If the fight gets made at any time around here it's 80-20 lewis, with bowe 20 being likely punchers chance. Lennox outboxes bowe for sure now.

Re the earlier fightslightky favouring bowe, the only part of me being uncomfortable favouring bowe is that Lennox would definitely be 100% switched on for that fight. And nobody beating Lennox when he had that focus