Pernell "Sweet Pea" Whitaker vs. Aaron Pryor

[Kalan]

Aaron Pryor didn't "draw you into a slugfest" ... He ran you over... and that's what he would to to Whitaker... Did he get drawn in by De La Hoya and Trinidad??? ... Or did he get out-punched??? What's he going to do when Pryor comes for him like he came for Arguello??? AA was a lot taller and longer than Whitaker but couldn't do crap to defend himself... I didn't see any bottle of potion in the Pryor-Arguello rematch -- and Aaron beat him a lot easier.

[elmersalsa]

Aaron Pryor didn't "draw you into a slugfest" ... He ran you over... and that's what he would to to Whitaker... Did he get drawn in by De La Hoya and Trinidad??? ... Or did he get out-punched??? What's he going to do when Pryor comes for him like he came for Arguello??? AA was a lot taller and longer than Whitaker but couldn't do crap to defend himself... I didn't see any bottle of potion in the Pryor-Arguello rematch -- and Aaron beat him a lot easier.

The Explosive Thin Man was past his very best, Kalan. Still, it was a great victory for The Cincinnati Hawk. But Sweet Pea is another dimension. He was clearly better than Arguello in accomplishments and skill, and beat much better fighters.

Pernell was a MASTER. He was someone very hard to hit cleanly, even in the inside exchanges. He was strong inside, a very underrated asset of his. And he had a very underrated body attack, something that I think Pryor would not appreciate.

I see this fight like when Sweet Pea fought the great Azumah Nelson. Same outcome. Sweet Pea on points. He was too smart.

[Kalan]

Aaron Pryor didn't "draw you into a slugfest" ... He ran you over... and that's what he would to to Whitaker... Did he get drawn in by De La Hoya and Trinidad??? ... Or did he get out-punched??? What's he going to do when Pryor comes for him like he came for Arguello??? AA was a lot taller and longer than Whitaker but couldn't do crap to defend himself... I didn't see any bottle of potion in the Pryor-Arguello rematch -- and Aaron beat him a lot easier.

The Explosive Thin Man was past his very best, Kalan. Still, it was a great victory for The Cincinnati Hawk. But Sweet Pea is another dimension. He was clearly better than Arguello in accomplishments and skill, and beat much better fighters.

Pernell was a MASTER. He was someone very hard to hit cleanly, even in the inside exchanges. He was strong inside, a very underrated asset of his. And he had a very underrated body attack, something that I think Pryor would not appreciate.

I see this fight like when Sweet Pea fought the great Azumah Nelson. Same outcome. Sweet Pea on points. He was too smart.

Whitaker was no master. He got hit a lot. I had Azumah Nelson beating Whitaker. Whitaker was in serious trouble and should have been point deducted for holding and grabbing Nelson around his legs a few times when he was desperate.

I don't see any solid body attack that Whitaker had and I thought Wilfredo Ravera beat him as well.. I found it odd that he never fought Hector Camacho or Edwin Rosario because I think they had a good chance to beat him. His style was suited for them. He certainly was robbed against Chavez, who couldn't jab well. Chavez fought a really terrible fight that night -- and also got a gift in the Frankie Randal rematch, which he certainly lost. Chavez had about 4 or 5 wins on his record that were totally phony. His son is going to get knocked kicking in his next fight.

[elmersalsa]

Aaron Pryor didn't "draw you into a slugfest" ... He ran you over... and that's what he would to to Whitaker... Did he get drawn in by De La Hoya and Trinidad??? ... Or did he get out-punched??? What's he going to do when Pryor comes for him like he came for Arguello??? AA was a lot taller and longer than Whitaker but couldn't do crap to defend himself... I didn't see any bottle of potion in the Pryor-Arguello rematch -- and Aaron beat him a lot easier.

The Explosive Thin Man was past his very best, Kalan. Still, it was a great victory for The Cincinnati Hawk. But Sweet Pea is another dimension. He was clearly better than Arguello in accomplishments and skill, and beat much better fighters.

Pernell was a MASTER. He was someone very hard to hit cleanly, even in the inside exchanges. He was strong inside, a very underrated asset of his. And he had a very underrated body attack, something that I think Pryor would not appreciate.

I see this fight like when Sweet Pea fought the great Azumah Nelson. Same outcome. Sweet Pea on points. He was too smart.

Whitaker was no master. He got hit a lot. I had Azumah Nelson beating Whitaker. Whitaker was in serious trouble and should have been point deducted for holding and grabbing Nelson around his legs a few times when he was desperate.

I don't see any solid body attack that Whitaker had and I thought Wilfredo Ravera beat him as well.. I found it odd that he never fought Hector Camacho or Edwin Rosario because I think they had a good chance to beat him. His style was suited for them. He certainly was robbed against Chavez, who couldn't jab well. Chavez fought a really terrible fight that night -- and also got a gift in the Frankie Randal rematch, which he certainly lost. Chavez had about 4 or 5 wins on his record that were totally phony. His son is going to get knocked kicking in his next fight.

That the great Pernell Whitaker was not a RING BOXING MASTER?

The great Azumah Nelson, The Professor, beat Sweet Pea?

Sorry, but, I don't know what you are really watching. Whitaker was the Principal or Dean of boxing against the Professor. An all-time great fighter.

[elmersalsa]

I just saw some Aaron Pryor and Pernell Whitaker fights to make a case study of their styles. And when I finished seeing their styles, I am totally convinced that Sweet Pea would have been a nightmare for The Cincinnati Hawk. Sweet Pea was too crafty, too slick and too smart. One of boxing's all time thinking fighters. A very scientific boxer that came to fight with a scientific approach. Even if Pryor comes with that whirlwind style, it would not work against this master. He could neutralize Pryor with angles and switching from side to side. And he would have also neutralized The Hawk with hooks to the body. In all of Pryor's fights that I have seen in his prime, he didn't get too many body shots. He mostly fought guys that were really limited. A great boxer, though, but, I think he knew his limitations in challenging Sugar Ray or The Hands of Stone. I think it was him just talking and yapping his mouth. I can't see Pryor beating a guy like Pipino Cuevas or Felix "Tito" Trinidad. Their power would have blown The Hawk away. He would have been too small for those guys at welterweight. Sweet Pea would have much better success against a guy like Cuevas. He was out of prime against Tito, plus, his drug use problems were well documented. And still of all that, he gave Tito all he could handle the first 6 rounds. Imagine if he were in his prime?

My conclusion is that this guy, Pernell Whitaker, is indeed a top 25 ATG pound per pound fighter. In which position? It's up to your discretion. He was the opposite of Pryor. He was the anti-excitement. Pryor was excitement of the first class order, but, it's not about excitement, but, boxing skill. Sweet Pea was just appreciated by the true boxing fans that love the art of hit and don't get hit. Ain't that what boxing is all about?

[BoxBuzz]

Whitaker is the only fighter I would give even odds with, against Duran at lightweight.....In my opinion he was that good.

Of course everyone here knows I think Pryor was good ...but very lucky, and very well managed. But not nearly as good as his reputation.

He picked off Cervantes and Arguello at just the right times. Timing is everything. And overall, both of those guys prime for prime would beat Pryor.

[Kalan]

Whitaker is the only fighter I would give even odds with, against Duran at lightweight.....In my opinion he was that good.

Of course everyone here knows I think Pryor was good ...but very lucky, and very well managed. But not nearly as good as his reputation.

He picked off Cervantes and Arguello at just the right times. Timing is everything. And overall, both of those guys prime for prime would beat Pryor.

Duran would crush Whitaker... Wilfred Rivera even beat Pernell and Duran would smash Rivera... De La Hoya easily beat Whitaker... but lost to Mosley twice... Mosley woud beat Whitaker in better form then De La Hoya managed... Mosley knocked out Rivera without really trying, but Rivera didn't find the going tough with Whitaker in those disputed fights.

[Counter-puncher]

Whitaker is the only fighter I would give even odds with, against Duran at lightweight.....In my opinion he was that good.

Of course everyone here knows I think Pryor was good ...but very lucky, and very well managed. But not nearly as good as his reputation.

He picked off Cervantes and Arguello at just the right times. Timing is everything. And overall, both of those guys prime for prime would beat Pryor.

Duran would crush Whitaker... Wilfred Rivera even beat Pernells.

No, he didn't

[BoxBuzz]

Whitaker is the only fighter I would give even odds with, against Duran at lightweight.....In my opinion he was that good.

Of course everyone here knows I think Pryor was good ...but very lucky, and very well managed. But not nearly as good as his reputation.

He picked off Cervantes and Arguello at just the right times. Timing is everything. And overall, both of those guys prime for prime would beat Pryor.

Duran would crush Whitaker... Wilfred Rivera even beat Pernell and Duran would smash Rivera... De La Hoya easily beat Whitaker... but lost to Mosley twice... Mosley woud beat Whitaker in better form then De La Hoya managed... Mosley knocked out Rivera without really trying, but Rivera didn't find the going tough with Whitaker in those disputed fights.

I would say that in reality Del La Hoya did not lose to Mosely Twice. They fought two fights with no clear outcome.

On another matter......You really need to inculcate the ability to sort out "bad time line outcomes" in your thinking. These are fighters that had "Spring vs Fall" Encounters that have clearly led you to some seriously flawed false assumptions.

Study this short list of meaningless (or at least less meaningful) outcomes and use them in the future for better contextual use of such real time outcomes in boxing. It'll do ya good.

1. Ali vs Holmes
2. Louis vs Marciano
3. S.R.L. vs Hector Camacho
4. Tyson Vs Holmes
5. Holyfield vs Valuev
6. Duran vs Pazienza
7. Whitaker vs Trinidad
8. Morales vs Garcia
9. Barrera vs Khan
10. Pep vs Woodland


Ask yourself "what do these fights have as common denominators"? The answer/s will go far to help your sorting process regarding any future hypothetical fights in which you wish to opine.

[Nile4000]

Pryor would stop Whitaker in the 14th round. Too much pressure, and as good as Pernell was, he wasn't invincible, he could be clocked at times, and this would be one of those times.

[scorpio83]

Whitaker is the only fighter I would give even odds with, against Duran at lightweight.....In my opinion he was that good.

Of course everyone here knows I think Pryor was good ...but very lucky, and very well managed. But not nearly as good as his reputation.

He picked off Cervantes and Arguello at just the right times. Timing is everything. And overall, both of those guys prime for prime would beat Pryor.

Duran would crush Whitaker... Wilfred Rivera even beat Pernell and Duran would smash Rivera... De La Hoya easily beat Whitaker... but lost to Mosley twice... Mosley woud beat Whitaker in better form then De La Hoya managed... Mosley knocked out Rivera without really trying, but Rivera didn't find the going tough with Whitaker in those disputed fights.

I would say that in reality Del La Hoya did not lose to Mosely Twice. They fought two fights with no clear outcome.

On another matter......You really need to inculcate the ability to sort out "bad time line outcomes" in your thinking. These are fighters that had "Spring vs Fall" Encounters that have clearly led you to some seriously flawed false assumptions.

Study this short list of meaningless (or at least less meaningful) outcomes and use them in the future for better contextual use of such real time outcomes in boxing. It'll do ya good.

1. Ali vs Holmes
2. Louis vs Marciano
3. S.R.L. vs Hector Camacho
4. Tyson Vs Holmes
5. Holyfield vs Valuev
6. Duran vs Pazienza
7. Whitaker vs Trinidad
8. Morales vs Garcia
9. Barrera vs Khan
10. Pep vs Woodland


Ask yourself "what do these fights have as common denominators"? The answer/s will go far to help your sorting process regarding any future hypothetical fights in which you wish to opine.

Don't forget Jack Johnson vs. Jim Jeffries

Pryor would stop Whitaker in the 14th round. Too much pressure, and as good as Pernell was, he wasn't invincible, he could be clocked at times, and this would be one of those times.

Honestly, I get too torn between those two great fighters because it was difficult to choose despite the fact I chose Pryor by a 15 round decision.

[Nile4000]

Duran would crush Whitaker... Wilfred Rivera even beat Pernell and Duran would smash Rivera... De La Hoya easily beat Whitaker... but lost to Mosley twice... Mosley woud beat Whitaker in better form then De La Hoya managed... Mosley knocked out Rivera without really trying, but Rivera didn't find the going tough with Whitaker in those disputed fights.

I would say that in reality Del La Hoya did not lose to Mosely Twice. They fought two fights with no clear outcome.

On another matter......You really need to inculcate the ability to sort out "bad time line outcomes" in your thinking. These are fighters that had "Spring vs Fall" Encounters that have clearly led you to some seriously flawed false assumptions.

Study this short list of meaningless (or at least less meaningful) outcomes and use them in the future for better contextual use of such real time outcomes in boxing. It'll do ya good.

1. Ali vs Holmes
2. Louis vs Marciano
3. S.R.L. vs Hector Camacho
4. Tyson Vs Holmes
5. Holyfield vs Valuev
6. Duran vs Pazienza
7. Whitaker vs Trinidad
8. Morales vs Garcia
9. Barrera vs Khan
10. Pep vs Woodland


Ask yourself "what do these fights have as common denominators"? The answer/s will go far to help your sorting process regarding any future hypothetical fights in which you wish to opine.

Don't forget Jack Johnson vs. Jim Jeffries

Pryor would stop Whitaker in the 14th round. Too much pressure, and as good as Pernell was, he wasn't invincible, he could be clocked at times, and this would be one of those times.

Honestly, I get too torn between those two great fighters because it was difficult to choose despite the fact I chose Pryor by a 15 round decision.

I understand. Pernell was the man, and beat more quality fighters, but Aaron was a force of nature. It would be a close fight, but Aaron would be in his face all fight, and I don't think Pernell could handle it 100% of the time.

[Kalan]

1. Ali vs Holmes
2. Louis vs Marciano
3. S.R.L. vs Hector Camacho
4. Tyson Vs Holmes
5. Holyfield vs Valuev
6. Duran vs Pazienza
7. Whitaker vs Trinidad
8. Morales vs Garcia
9. Barrera vs Khan
10. Pep vs Woodland

Ask yourself "what do these fights have as common denominators"? The answer/s will go far to help your sorting process regarding any future hypothetical fights in which you wish to opine.

Terrible argument

Part of being a very good boxer is not getting pounded to the degree where you lose your skills early... Ali lost to a walk-in left hooker.. a China-chin.. and a Neophyte before he ever fought Holmes... Ali always got hit too much... Being old just made him even easier to hit.

Leonard retired for 6 years prior to fighting Hector Camacho because Terry Norris beat the shiit out of him at a fairly young age.

Holmes was ring rusty against Tyson... He was better 4 years later versus Ray Mercer.

Louis was a fat old man versus Marciano... Instead of 37 he looked 52.

[BoxBuzz]

No...it's not a terrible argument.... spring vs Autumn fights between big names seems to resonate WAY to seriously for you. And it distorts your logic quite decidedly.

Now of course that's just my take on it.

[Kalan]

No...it's not a terrible argument.... spring vs Autumn fights between big names seems to resonate WAY to seriously for you. And it distorts your logic quite decidedly. Now of course that's just my take on it.

Vitali Klitschko came back at 37 and won 10 Heavyweight Championship Fights in a row to age 41... Great Autumn I'd say

Larry Holmes came back at 41 and fought 3 Heavyweight Championship Fights without getting hurt... Great Autumn I'd say

Jack Johnson went undefeated for 11 years after dominating Jess Willard for 20 rounds at 37... Great Autumn...though he was denied the Dempsey fight

Wladimir Klitschko fought brilliantly for 11 rounds versus Heavyweight Champion Anthony Joshua at age 41...before getting battered out.. Not an effort Ali could duplicate at that age because his skills were just not on that level at 41.. Joshua used a great body attack.. inside game.. rippling combinations.. and punching power that Ali could never duplicate at any age... AJ is the first man ever with 4 Heavyweight Champion Fights and a 100% KO ratio.

[Syntax Error]

No...it's not a terrible argument.... spring vs Autumn fights between big names seems to resonate WAY to seriously for you. And it distorts your logic quite decidedly. Now of course that's just my take on it.

Vitali Klitschko came back at 37 and won 10 Heavyweight Championship Fights in a row to age 41... Great Autumn I'd say

Larry Holmes came back at 41 and fought 3 Heavyweight Championship Fights without getting hurt... Great Autumn I'd say

Jack Johnson went undefeated for 11 years after dominating Jess Willard for 20 rounds at 37... Great Autumn...though he was denied the Dempsey fight

Wladimir Klitschko fought brilliantly for 11 rounds versus Heavyweight Champion Anthony Joshua at age 41...before getting battered out.. Not an effort Ali could duplicate at that age because his skills were just not on that level at 41.. Joshua used a great body attack.. inside game.. rippling combinations.. and punching power that Ali could never duplicate at any age... AJ is the first man ever with 4 Heavyweight Champion Fights and a 100% KO ratio.

Ali was not active at 41 & you know the reason why; so you cannot use a 41 year old Ali as any kind of barometer for anything.

[Kalan]

Ali wasn't active at 41 true... Many were active -- and did well because they had skills to fall back on when youth evaporated... Ali was active at 38 and 39 against Holmes and Berbick and not doing so hot.. Ali looked pretty amateurish. Not up to the standards of Vitali, Wladimir, or Holmes at that age.

Berbick was very kind and respectful to the old warrior "I didn't try to stop Ali. I did enough to be certain the judges knew who was winning." ... Holmes wasn't too respectful. His Heavyweight Title was on the line. Holmes seemed to ease up considerably in the 10th, like saying "Are you fools going to stop this nonsense or what are you going to force me to do???" ... Angelo Dundee finally got the message loud and clear. Holmes said apologetically "I did what I had to do."

[BoxBuzz]

Ali wasn't active at 41 true... Many were active -- and did well because they had skills to fall back on when youth evaporated... Ali was active at 38 and 39 against Holmes and Berbick and not doing so hot.. Ali looked pretty amateurish. Not up to the standards of Vitali, Wladimir, or Holmes at that age.

Berbick was very kind and respectful to the old warrior "I didn't try to stop Ali. I did enough to be certain the judges knew who was winning." ... Holmes wasn't too respectful. His Heavyweight Title was on the line. Holmes seemed to ease up considerably in the 10th, like saying "Are you fools going to stop this nonsense or what are you going to force me to do???" ... Angelo Dundee finally got the message loud and clear. Holmes said apologetically "I did what I had to do."

So Berbick didn't want anything to do KO'ing or putting a ruthless beatdown on Ali? Didn't want those braggin' rights eh? What a sweetheart he was.

I go along with Holmes pulling his punches and wishing the ref would finish it for him. Not Berbick....he did his level best....gave it all he had.....and he won.