Honestly I don't get a lot of the Harry Greb hype

[BitPlayer]

Not to say he wasn't a very good fighter. But some of the talk about him gets ridiculas.

In nearly 300 known fights, he only knocked out 48. Not so much an issue for a defensive wizzard, but he wasn't that, he was the Pittsburgh Windmill, an aggressive and dirty fighter.

He also did have some losses to guys that someone people like he was the greatest ever really shouldn't have.

Kid Graves
Joe Borrell
Soldier Bartfield

And that's ignoring his early losses against Fay Keiser, Joe Chip, and Hooks Evans

Also he injured his arms a lot. I guess it was his rough style.

[BoxBuzz]

Klompton wrote a book about him which reveals a lot of hard won research on him.

I'm inclined to believe he was a great, and IF you are willing to sign on to the many many documented observations, you can become pretty impressed.


However....I remain a skeptic about his being at the very top simply because I'm not real keen on the word of sports Journalists. Him and Maxie Rosenbloom are engima's to my way of thinking.

Maxie never saw a camera he didn't love...yet not one scintilla of film exists on his remarkable career......same with Greb though he was not the ham that Rosenbloom was.

I'm healthily concerned that this fact and this fact alone helps elevate both of them to heights neither deserves. The more the mystery the greater the talent? I'm not so sure.


In my business, a lot of people are under the illusion that the farther away you are from the place where you are presenting, the greater of an expert you must be. (We all know better).....BUT..... It's kind of human nature to revere the exotic.

[gilgamesh]

Believe the hype. He's Million Dollar Champion

[APerno]

The stuff legends are made of . . .

[APerno]

The stuff legends are made of . . .

Rothstein, by David Pietrusza

At 2:00 AM the night before the Greb-Walker fight Arnold Rothstein and a few gamblers loitered in front of Lindy's [restaurant]. When a careening Yellow Cab pulled to a halt, and out fell a drunken Harry Greb. Two chorus girls bounded out and packed Harry back into the cab before the vehicle sped away.

Arnold Rothstein had sizable money bet on Greb, as did the other gamblers. "That bum don't have a chance," said one of the gamblers, "you can't drink and love all night and expect to lick a guy like Micky Walker twenty-four hours later." Rothstein and the other gamblers quickly hedged their bets by getting some cash down on Walker.

The next night as Greb climbed into the ring, he looked considerably better. "Hey Harry how do you feel" yelled one of the writers, "Great" the middleweight champ responded. "How did those gamblers like my act last night?"

Greb fought his usual dirty fight and could have been disqualified several times, but wasn't. Greb won on points.

With Rothstein and friends hedging their bets the odds moved back towards Walker and so considerably increased Greb's side-bet pay-offs.

_________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________-

Add stories like that to BoxBuzz's point about the absence of any actual fight films and it is easy to see how legends gets made.

[APerno]

Screwed up that presentation - the post is still there somewhere - I think I replied to myself when trying to edit. Sorry. -- Good story though.

[jimglen]

Greb WAS/IS a Great, of this there is No Question...

his fight record and legacy alone proves that, though I agree over hyped and rated. Not just Greb though, but that whole Transitioning Era.

Boxing evolved and changed, it eventually became 'more athletic' which was FULLY seen by the early 30s till present day, with decline and poorer moments along the way.

ALL the fighters from pre and post turn of the century would have given up their places to the more athletic TOP men of the evolutionary Peak and GREATEST Era's, it's that simple.

He/they, would have been Contenders and Fringe Contenders at those times, which again is No Disgrace, the battlefield was Loaded with Talent during it's heyday, circa late 1920s, 30s, 40s and 50s...

just as there are 'technically' up to 50 TOP Men today in each division today - Champions and TOP Contenders in all the different Alphabet Bodies, with many of them 'possible' champions, more so was it back in Boxing's Golden years, when the Ring Magazine alone was Rating over 2000 fighters from Boxing's leading Nations, in just 8 Divisions. So you had Champ, Top 10 and Fringe World Classed fighters approx. 250 per division, again with any number of the TOP 30 -50 in each division 'possible' Top 10 and/or Champions given the opportunity.

Greb and his era's TOP men would have been just like that, Outside the TOP 10, on the Fringe in most cases during those GREATES Era's, tough rugged fighters can and do beat Stylish, Refined Athletic Boxers, sure but not most of the time and certainly not in a completely evolved different TOP Athlete. and I've stated this all through the years going back to the CBZ days.

Lastly you DON'T Need Film, MOST Film from the past didn't capture movement properly, but the Ones that DID show great fighters just the same, i.e. there is a site of Australian Footage from the late 30s and 40s damn near perfect, some South African footage from the 40s the same and of course the American & British clips and fights from the same periods... you notice by the 50s the fighters look as normal as TV today, and again a small percentage of the Film from the years before as I've stated from those sites.

Fight Records, Opponents Fight Records, Film of even just SOME of the past fighters and legit reports and periodicals all weighed against each other and ERA's, IS All One Needs to KNOW a Fighters Greatness.

and Of COURSE Greb was and IS Among them... but SO Are Countless more!

[Sidney Carton]

Anybody here know that Grab is the only fighter to beat Gene Tunney?

[APerno]

Greb ripped open a cut on Tunney that would have stopped a fight today. Mid-fight Abe Attell who was in Tunney's corner ran to a local drugstore and got adrenaline chloride to staunch Tunney's bleeding. (Guess it wan't a standard yet.) The cut was so bad that Grantland Rice once commented he thought Attell saved Tunney's life.

[gilgamesh]

Greb ripped open a cut on Tunney that would have stopped a fight today. Mid-fight Abe Attell who was in Tunney's corner ran to a local drugstore and got adrenaline chloride to staunch Tunney's bleeding. (Guess it wan't a standard yet.) The cut was so bad that Grantland Rice once commented he thought Attell saved Tunney's life.

Yeesh! That must've been one nasty cut. Doubt that would've been quick on the ball with blood transfusions back then, which it sounds like at the very least Tunney would've needed if it was THAT bad.

I think if I was in a guys corner and he was bleeding that damn bad I'd stop the fight.

[paddy chavez]

Anybody here know that Grab is the only fighter to beat Gene Tunney?

didn't tunney beat greb 3 times though

[Tomasino]

Anybody here know that Grab is the only fighter to beat Gene Tunney?

didn't tunney beat greb 3 times though

Greb clearly won the first fight, dominating Tunney. The others were disputed decisions apart from the last one, in which Gene is supposed to have hammered Greb.

[Sidney Carton]

I think if I was in a guys corner and he was bleeding that damn bad I'd stop the fight.

You weren't in Tunney's corner.

[Sidney Carton]

Anybody here know that middleweight Greb beat Tommy Gibbons, Bill Brennan and Billy Miske?

[gilgamesh]

I think if I was in a guys corner and he was bleeding that damn bad I'd stop the fight.

You weren't in Tunney's corner.

Indeed, and I was several decades away from being born too. I'm just surprised a cornerman would let a fight continue with a cut that was bleeding as badly as this was one was reported to be.

[Tomasino]

I think if I was in a guys corner and he was bleeding that damn bad I'd stop the fight.

You weren't in Tunney's corner.

Indeed, and I was several decades away from being born too. I'm just surprised a cornerman would let a fight continue with a cut that was bleeding as badly as this was one was reported to be.

Why would that surprise you?

[gilgamesh]

You weren't in Tunney's corner.

Indeed, and I was several decades away from being born too. I'm just surprised a cornerman would let a fight continue with a cut that was bleeding as badly as this was one was reported to be.

Why would that surprise you?

I don't know. I guess I'd care about my fighter a little more than to let him bleed out in front of me

[Tomasino]

Indeed, and I was several decades away from being born too. I'm just surprised a cornerman would let a fight continue with a cut that was bleeding as badly as this was one was reported to be.

Why would that surprise you?

I don't know. I guess I'd care about my fighter a little more than to let him bleed out in front of me

Fighters rarely died from blood loss mate

[gilgamesh]

Why would that surprise you?

I don't know. I guess I'd care about my fighter a little more than to let him bleed out in front of me

Fighters rarely died from blood loss mate

Yeah I got that, but the implication is that Tunney might've here with the "His trainer saved his life" line. I'm just saying if the cut was that ghastly it probably at least warranted somebody considering stopping it. That's all I'm saying. Yeesh.

[Tomasino]

I don't know. I guess I'd care about my fighter a little more than to let him bleed out in front of me

Fighters rarely died from blood loss mate

Yeah I got that, but the implication is that Tunney might've here with the "His trainer saved his life" line. I'm just saying if the cut was that ghastly it probably at least warranted somebody considering stopping it. That's all I'm saying. Yeesh.

Back in those days folk were less squeamish. I reckon Tunney would kick your ass if you stopped him on cuts.

[gilgamesh]

Fighters rarely died from blood loss mate

Yeah I got that, but the implication is that Tunney might've here with the "His trainer saved his life" line. I'm just saying if the cut was that ghastly it probably at least warranted somebody considering stopping it. That's all I'm saying. Yeesh.

Back in those days folk were less squeamish. I reckon Tunney would kick your ass if you stopped him on cuts.

Yeah probably

[APerno]

Tunney years later stated that 'if the fight had been today (circa 1965) they would have stopped the fight and I never would have learned how to beat Greb.' - Tunney was cut in the first round and bled throughout.

From BoxRec: "Tunney bled from his nose, mouth and from cuts over both eyes. He lost almost two quarts of blood during the fight." (Is two quarts realistic; how many quarts of blood do we have in us?)

The Pittsburgh Press states that Doc Bagley (a Tunney second, not the ring doctor) used up 'all his blood-stopping remedies by the 5th round.' I guess that's where Attell comes into the story. https://news.google.com/newspapers?nid= ... 01,3382997

[BitPlayer]

Tunney years later stated that 'if the fight had been today (circa 1965) they would have stopped the fight and I never would have learned how to beat Greb.' - Tunney was cut in the first round and bled throughout.

From BoxRec: "Tunney bled from his nose, mouth and from cuts over both eyes. He lost almost two quarts of blood during the fight." (Is two quarts realistic; how many quarts of blood do we have in us?)

The Pittsburgh Press states that Doc Bagley (a Tunney second, not the ring doctor) used up 'all his blood-stopping remedies by the 5th round.' I guess that's where Attell comes into the story. https://news.google.com/newspapers?nid= ... 01,3382997

It depends on size. According to this, he'd have about 6 litres, 2 quarts is about 2 litres. http://reference.medscape.com/calculato ... ood-volume.

According to this, that'd require a blood transfusion. http://www.medicaldaily.com/breaking-po ... ose-350792

[Tomasino]

Sounds like Tunney took the beating of his life!

[Chuck1052]

At the time of Gene Tunney's first bout with Harry Greb, Doc Bagby was Gene's manager. Bagby also was known a fine cut man.

- Chuck Johnston