bobbyd wrote:
nahhh.tyson could'nt ko mitch green or james tillis during his awesome tomato can killer reign of 86-88.how in the world would he ko holyfield.other fighters that'd have beaten him or given him hell had he won against buster douglass would be.
-riddick bowe(would've worn down mikey and ko'd em between rounds 9-11.
-ray mercer(would've withered tyson's tomato can killer style storm of flailing away like a pyschopath and lasted the distance.also would've been a very unenjoyable opponent for tyson.)
-george foreman(would've gone the distance in a rather dullish fight with a futilly flailing sloppy looking over anxiously eager kid "not so dynamite" tyson.)this fight could've very likely wound up being a draw.
-lennox lewis.(certainly likely,would've difused the kid's dynamite and clocked him cold,as lewis would be cautious and respective of tyson unlike his fluke 1st outing with mc call.i see lewis ko'ing em in 8 or 9.
Foreman was way out of shape, and Michael Moorer was a chump anyway. Foreman beat a chump in Moorer, who had beat Holyfield. If Bowe couldn't KO Holyfield, who had a better chin than Tyson, he couldn't have KO'd Tyson because Mike's power would have worn him down much more.
Don't even mention Lewis. He was put to sleep twice, not only was he out cold, it was really early both times. Holyfield nor Tyson were ever put down like that, even after their prime. Rahman is a clown, and McCall is a chump that lost to Bruno, Tucker, and Douglas. Lewis has far worse losses, albeit less losses, than Tyson and Holyfield.
With the exception of Williams, Tyson was always knocked out late when he did lose. Lewis and Holyfield took an out-of-prime Tyson out late in the fight, whereas Lewis was KTFO's by two chumps, and Holyfield had several really disappointing losses.
When Tyson lost, he lasted much longer with much better fighters. When Lewis lost, a chump took him out instantly.
i dont know why you keep saying lewis was put to sleep twice.
in the mccall fight he was on his feet way before ten and when the ref called it off he went apeshit. i actually agree with the ref, he looked a bit glassy eyed and wobbly on his legs but he certainly wasnt rolling around the floor looking for his gumshield like some i could mention.
Well I compeltly agree with the ref stopping the Lewis-McCall fight. Lewis was floored by a wierd right hand thrown by McCall and Lewis got up and stumbled and the ref had to hold him up. If the ref would of let it continue than McCall would of knocked him out without question finishing his career.
Tyson however was never knocked out flat by a single punch like Lewis was. It was always a sustained beating and Tyson ate a lot of punches before falling, and Tyson still gets up!
Lewis on the other hand regarding the Rahman fight, was actually LAUGHING at Rahman... then BANG! Rahman hits him with peach of a punch and you can see clearly see Lewis isnt smiling anymore
If you want to be arrogant and taunt....at least do it when you are AWAY from your opponent with your hands down
RazorKO wrote:Well I compeltly agree with the ref stopping the Lewis-McCall fight. Lewis was floored by a wierd right hand thrown by McCall and Lewis got up and stumbled and the ref had to hold him up. If the ref would of let it continue than McCall would of knocked him out without question finishing his career.
Tyson however was never knocked out flat by a single punch like Lewis was. It was always a sustained beating and Tyson ate a lot of punches before falling, and Tyson still gets up!
Lewis on the other hand regarding the Rahman fight, was actually LAUGHING at Rahman... then BANG! Rahman hits him with peach of a punch and you can see clearly see Lewis isnt smiling anymore
If you want to be arrogant and taunt....at least do it when you are AWAY from your opponent with your hands down
Tyson was KO'd by a blocked punch from Danny Williams. That was pretty embarrassing for me to watch as a Tyson fan, especially since I predicted a vicious KO for Iron Mike. At least Lewis was KO'd by flush shots from huge hitters who were able to compete on a global scale as opposed to the local British circuit like Williams.
Remember Lewis was out of shape for Rahman just like Tyson was for Douglas. Totally agree about the Lewis stoppage against McCall. The fact Lewis only got knocked down twice in his whole career doesn't tell me he has a glass jaw. It does tell me that he had to be Koed to be beaten. How many boxers would like that as part of their boxing ability. KO me or you're not winning!
Arsenal wrote:Remember Lewis was out of shape for Rahman just like Tyson was for Douglas. Totally agree about the Lewis stoppage against McCall. The fact Lewis only got knocked down twice in his whole career doesn't tell me he has a glass jaw. It does tell me that he had to be Koed to be beaten. How many boxers would like that as part of their boxing ability. KO me or you're not winning!
- An out of shape Tyson knocked Douglas down to 9.5, some arguably say 10, he actually won the fight
- Tyson didn't go down until late in the fight, Lewis down in round 2.
- Lewis was put to sleep by Rahman, Tyson never was his whole career
Tyson had to be KO'd as well, he lasted far longer than Lewis did in his losses (with the exception of Williams, but Tyson fought further out of his prime than Lewis ever did because he was desperate for the money). How long could Lewis have lasted against a top HW in their prime? An over-the-hill Tyson lasted 8 rounds with Lewis.
Depends how you want to see it...
Lewis was KO'd cleanly but never beaten up, never mastered in the ring. Tyson was beaten up and was mastered in the ring.
Lewis continued to learn throughout his career. Tyson didn't.
not that it matters because I believe Mike deserved to lose. if you watch the knockdown of Douglas, he is given atleast 2 seconds longer than a 10 count. Had Mike won that fight, I still believe he was on a path of a downward spiral, someone else would have gotten the distinction of achieving the seemingly impossible. I still have the recording of the original airing. Mike was my hero back then (how times have changed) and the letdown I felt when I watched it was incredible. Poor Mike and poor me as well!
sockdollanger wrote:not that it matters because I believe Mike deserved to lose. if you watch the knockdown of Douglas, he is given atleast 2 seconds longer than a 10 count. Had Mike won that fight, I still believe he was on a path of a downward spiral, someone else would have gotten the distinction of achieving the seemingly impossible. I still have the recording of the original airing. Mike was my hero back then (how times have changed) and the letdown I felt when I watched it was incredible. Poor Mike and poor me as well!
Sock
I watched every fight of Tyson's on the way up. I was so excited because he was cleaning out the division and I'd been in on the whole deal. With Holmes I was much younger and my boxing knowledge wasn't as great until he got older. It felt like Tyson was my great champion. I knew Mike would face some tough fights and only then would we be 100% sure he was a true great (I don't like to throw that word 'great' around too much as it chepaens the achievements of others). After Mike lost I thought fine, now he comes back and becomes champion again. Holyfield, Lewis and Bowe were on the horizon and it seemed like Tyson had the ability and the opponents to cement his greatness.
Looking back Tyson was always out of control. Looking back I think he peaked against Thomas (though Thomas was probably overrated at that point). Once Tyson lost his aura he never managed to get it back.
RazorKO wrote:Well I compeltly agree with the ref stopping the Lewis-McCall fight. Lewis was floored by a wierd right hand thrown by McCall and Lewis got up and stumbled and the ref had to hold him up. If the ref would of let it continue than McCall would of knocked him out without question finishing his career.
Tyson however was never knocked out flat by a single punch like Lewis was. It was always a sustained beating and Tyson ate a lot of punches before falling, and Tyson still gets up!
Lewis on the other hand regarding the Rahman fight, was actually LAUGHING at Rahman... then BANG! Rahman hits him with peach of a punch and you can see clearly see Lewis isnt smiling anymore
If you want to be arrogant and taunt....at least do it when you are AWAY from your opponent with your hands down
Tyson was KO'd by a blocked punch from Danny Williams. That was pretty embarrassing for me to watch as a Tyson fan, especially since I predicted a vicious KO for Iron Mike. At least Lewis was KO'd by flush shots from huge hitters who were able to compete on a global scale as opposed to the local British circuit like Williams.
True, but Tyson was far past it when he fought Williams. But Tyson has never been out flat by two ordinary fighters like Arrogant Lewis.
Even when Douglas gave Tyson a beating and eventually knocked him down with that terrific 3 punch combination, Tyson still got up!
If I were Id be even more embarass for Lewis the way he was laughing at Rahman...then WHAM! If Lewis was knocked out brutally by Rahman, Id sure like to see him take the shot Larry Holmes took from Shavers in their second fight Lewis's career would of ended right there.
Caulk Rocket wrote:"If my jaw had any more glass in it, I could use it to drink a nice cup of English Tea, without lifting a finger because the cup's already in my jaw. I could then use my free hands to munch on a crumpet and watch my favorite Benny Hill episodes."
nice to see britains `special` relationship with the u.s is still respected by our american `cousins`.
Caulk Rocket wrote:
- An out of shape Tyson knocked Douglas down to 9.5, some arguably say 10, he actually won the fight
- Tyson didn't go down until late in the fight, Lewis down in round 2.
- Lewis was put to sleep by Rahman, Tyson never was his whole career
Tyson had to be KO'd as well, he lasted far longer than Lewis did in his losses (with the exception of Williams, but Tyson fought further out of his prime than Lewis ever did because he was desperate for the money). How long could Lewis have lasted against a top HW in their prime? An over-the-hill Tyson lasted 8 rounds with Lewis.
Depends how you want to see it...
Lewis was KO'd cleanly but never beaten up, never mastered in the ring. Tyson was beaten up and was mastered in the ring.
Lewis continued to learn throughout his career. Tyson didn't.
If Tyson was beaten up, that proves his chin to me. It seems his uppercuts were just as solid as his chin then, which made him pretty well rounded. Lewis was never beaten up because he never faced a true champ in their prime.
Tyson didn't learn because he didn't box for the sport, he did it for the money because prison ruined him. Imagine you just cleaned up a division, made millions, and then got sent prison at the height of your career, without getting to avenge your only loss.
Tyson's chin wasn't my point. You knew that but couldn't bring yourself to address the point. Tyson ahd a better chin than Lewis. Lewis was never beaten up which makes me believe that Lewis had the better skills.
Tyson didn't learn because he didn't have to at first, his physical gifts and intimidation took him to the top. Once he met someone with self-belief he crumbled.
cybox wrote:Here is a list of fighters who were in line in the early 90's to get a crack at TYson's belt had he not lost to Douglas.
** fights record at time of Douglas loss
Michael Dokes 41-2-2 (26) 31 yrs old
Renaldo Snipes 36-7-1- (21) 31 yrs old
Ray Mercer 13-0 (10) 28 yrs. old
Tim Witherspoon 31-3 (23) 32 yrs old
Gary Mason 33-0 (31) 27 yrs old
How would they have fared? I see 5 more successful defenses for Tyson had he gotten past Douglas. Then fought Holyfied and Ruddock and Bowe and Lennox after these five and cashing in on a few easy paydays first.
I thought they guys being talked about by DK were Adilson Rodriguez, Francesco Damiani, Jose Ribalta II and Quick Tillis II.
The public were wanting Foreman, Holyfield, and Ruddock...
Tyson would have beaten all of them except Holyfield, and Foreman, Mercer, and Ruddock would obviously give him a serious rumble.
overhand_right wrote:I thought they guys being talked about by DK were Adilson Rodriguez, Francesco Damiani, Jose Ribalta II and Quick Tillis II..
I don't remember much talk about Tillis and Ribalta rematches, although I do remember the one and only Mitch Green constantly screaming for one.
I do however remember talk of the Rodriguez & Damiani fights as there was speculation on Tyson going on a 'World Tour' and fighting them in their home countries. I believe Tyson would have crushed both of them.
Prior to the Rodriquez v Holyifield fight Adilsons then trainer Angelo Dundee was quoted as saying "You will need a baseball bat to knock my guy out"
But seriously, I think the Tim Witherspoon fight would have been a tough one. If Tyson came prepared with Rooney, he probably takes care of business in orderly fashion. If not ... I could see a repeat of the Douglas fight. I think Tyson falls behind through seven and takes an assortment of Witherspoon rights before dropping "Spoon" for the count in the eighth. If the fight takes place in Japan, maybe he gets the benefit of a long count and goes on to KO Tyson in the 10th. This could just be speculation.
He was by Douglas and Lewis. Also a absolute beating by Holyfield. How you defend someone who got KOed by McBride and Williams. Lewis may have been beaten by McCall and Rahman but at least he avenged the defeats. Tyson never. Why didn't he have a rematch with Douglas? Lewis would never ever, even now, be beaten by bums like Williams and McBride. At least McCall and Rahman were decent, rated HW. McBride? Williams? If Tyson had never been beaten by them you may have case and I may have some more respect for him. But no matter how washed up you are how on earth do you get beat by McBride. Even Williams I can give some credit. But McBride. No way. KOed by McBride! How can any Tyon fan try and defend that.
Lewis had far more heart and character than Tyson... he avenged both his defeats, we know what happened when Tyson tried to avenge his defaet to Holyfield don't we. The fact that Tyson never avenged any of his defeats tells us a lot about his mental make up and the flaws that kept him from being a great champion. Lewis may have had the waeker chin but he had the stronger heart and character and therefore was the better fighter overall imo....
silkov wrote:Lewis had far more heart and character than Tyson... he avenged both his defeats, we know what happened when Tyson tried to avenge his defaet to Holyfield don't we. The fact that Tyson never avenged any of his defeats tells us a lot about his mental make up and the flaws that kept him from being a great champion. Lewis may have had the waeker chin but he had the stronger heart and character and therefore was the better fighter overall imo....
We agree on this. People tend to overlook this lack of character for Tyson when rating his "prime" years of '86 to '88. If Tyson would have faced a Holyfield type fighter at this time, he would have gone into a shell when he couldn't blow the guy out like he normally did. Tony Tucker, Bonecrusher Smith, Holyfield I ... he just did not have what it took in his heart to become a top five heavyweight (or top ten in my opinion).
silkov wrote:Lewis had far more heart and character than Tyson... he avenged both his defeats, we know what happened when Tyson tried to avenge his defaet to Holyfield don't we. The fact that Tyson never avenged any of his defeats tells us a lot about his mental make up and the flaws that kept him from being a great champion. Lewis may have had the waeker chin but he had the stronger heart and character and therefore was the better fighter overall imo....
We agree on this. People tend to overlook this lack of character for Tyson when rating his "prime" years of '86 to '88. If Tyson would have faced a Holyfield type fighter at this time, he would have gone into a shell when he couldn't blow the guy out like he normally did. Tony Tucker, Bonecrusher Smith, Holyfield I ... he just did not have what it took in his heart to become a top five heavyweight (or top ten in my opinion).
Stranger things have happened I suppose, but in my lovely fantasy land Holyfield would still have beaten Tyson even if they had met in the late 80s... Evander basically just had too much balls for Tyson and would always have beaten him... people also overlook the fact that Evander was pretty far removed from his prime himself by the time he fought Tyson... he was older and far more ringworn yet still beat Mike like he was his daddy.... 8)
silkov wrote:Lewis had far more heart and character than Tyson... he avenged both his defeats, we know what happened when Tyson tried to avenge his defaet to Holyfield don't we. The fact that Tyson never avenged any of his defeats tells us a lot about his mental make up and the flaws that kept him from being a great champion. Lewis may have had the waeker chin but he had the stronger heart and character and therefore was the better fighter overall imo....
We agree on this. People tend to overlook this lack of character for Tyson when rating his "prime" years of '86 to '88. If Tyson would have faced a Holyfield type fighter at this time, he would have gone into a shell when he couldn't blow the guy out like he normally did. Tony Tucker, Bonecrusher Smith, Holyfield I ... he just did not have what it took in his heart to become a top five heavyweight (or top ten in my opinion).
Stranger things have happened I suppose, but in my lovely fantasy land Holyfield would still have beaten Tyson even if they had met in the late 80s... Evander basically just had too much balls for Tyson and would always have beaten him... people also overlook the fact that Evander was pretty far removed from his prime himself by the time he fought Tyson... he was older and far more ringworn yet still beat Mike like he was his daddy.... 8)
I feel the same way. Holyfield was a better overall fighter and would have won anytime they met. I've posted on this subject before, but ever since I saw a clip of the sparring match between Tyson and Holyfield at the 1984 olympic trials, I was sure Holyfield could take him. That was on a Tyson-Holyfield I preshow and I've never forgotten it. The sparring was very intense and both fighters were trying to rip each others heads off. It was ended prematurely so neither fighter would get hurt for competition. It also proves to me that a Tyson-Holyfield fight would have been much more exciting in 1991 than 1996, but oh well, I'm happy what history served us.
overhand_right wrote:I thought they guys being talked about by DK were Adilson Rodriguez, Francesco Damiani, Jose Ribalta II and Quick Tillis II..
I don't remember much talk about Tillis and Ribalta rematches, although I do remember the one and only Mitch Green constantly screaming for one.
I do however remember talk of the Rodriguez & Damiani fights as there was speculation on Tyson going on a 'World Tour' and fighting them in their home countries. I believe Tyson would have crushed both of them.
Prior to the Rodriquez v Holyifield fight Adilsons then trainer Angelo Dundee was quoted as saying "You will need a baseball bat to knock my guy out"
Somebody forgot to tell The Real Deal that.
The reason you dont 'remember' joe is that reg gutteridge doesnt mention it in your sole point of reference which is old Tyson video tapes.
DK had Ribalta & Tillis and was trying to sell rematches to the public but the press were mrudering him for it. After Tyson iced Truth Williams in 89 & Ribalta outpointed Jeff Sims on the undercard DK was trying to flog it because he was steering Tyson away as always from risky opponents like Foreman & Holyfield who he had absolutely no chance of controlling.
overhand_right wrote:The reason you dont 'remember' joe is that reg gutteridge doesnt mention it in your sole point of reference which is old Tyson video tapes.
In a good mood as usuall overhand.
Did you read my post at all?
I said I remembered the talk of the rematches, just not much of it, sorry if I confused you bro.
And who the hell bought Reggie babes into the coversation?
silkov wrote:Lewis had far more heart and character than Tyson... he avenged both his defeats, we know what happened when Tyson tried to avenge his defaet to Holyfield don't we. The fact that Tyson never avenged any of his defeats tells us a lot about his mental make up and the flaws that kept him from being a great champion. Lewis may have had the waeker chin but he had the stronger heart and character and therefore was the better fighter overall imo....
thats a load of bias, tyson was far past his prime vs holyfield and coming off a 4 year layofff. you know how people get fucked up in prison, tyson went coocoo! tyson never got the chance to avenge his defeat of douglas because he went to jail. get it?
u critisize tyson way too much for wut happened post layoff
