Seamus wrote:Duran beat Leonard at his very best ??? Leonard went on to stop Tommy Hearns, who was alot more dominant at 147 than Duran. And as far as him kicking Leonard's ass, it was a very close decision, and a fight that the New York Times, Ferdie Pacheco and a few others thought Leonard had won. Robinson was physically stronger and a bigger puncher than Leonard at 147, not to mention being faster and having a longer reach than Duran.
GFOH! DURAN KICKED HIS ASS! CLOSE FIGHT MY ASS!
Editors note -elmer himself once said that he had Duran winning by the total of just 3 points. Imagine what a 4 point victory would be called.
If a 3 point victory is an ass kicking, what would a 8th round TKO be? A murder?
Seamus wrote:Duran beat Leonard at his very best ??? Leonard went on to stop Tommy Hearns, who was alot more dominant at 147 than Duran. And as far as him kicking Leonard's ass, it was a very close decision, and a fight that the New York Times, Ferdie Pacheco and a few others thought Leonard had won. Robinson was physically stronger and a bigger puncher than Leonard at 147, not to mention being faster and having a longer reach than Duran.
GFOH! DURAN KICKED HIS ASS! CLOSE FIGHT MY ASS!
Editors note -elmer himself once said that he had Duran winning by the total of just 3 points. Imagine what a 4 point victory would be called.
If a 3 point victory is an ass kicking, what would a 8th round TKO be? A murder?
'Kick his ass' - of course not - but he did bully him - it is the only time I saw Leonard unsure of himself; hesitant to engage. He turned it around in the rematch and fought with confidence.
If someone had had never seen the two fight before and saw the fight they would have a different perception of the fight than many people do. If you didn't know their styles you would have a different perception of this fight.
Leonard fought Duran's fight. They were inside most of the time. Duran did not actually land that many clean punches. Leonard landed more clean punches. Duran landed many more glancing blows, punches while they were tied up, on the break etc. There were several rounds which were very difficult to score.
However perception can be more important than reality. If you fighting someone else's fight, it is difficult to look better.
Ambling Alp II wrote:If someone had had never seen the two fight before and saw the fight they would have a different perception of the fight than many people do. If you didn't know their styles you would have a different perception of this fight.
Leonard fought Duran's fight. They were inside most of the time. Duran did not actually land that many clean punches. Leonard landed more clean punches. Duran landed many more glancing blows, punches while they were tied up, on the break etc. There were several rounds which were very difficult to score.
However perception can be more important than reality. If you fighting someone else's fight, it is difficult to look better.
That is THE WRONG PERCEPTION of the media that want people to believe that Leonard fought Duran's fight. He just got WHUPPED! END OF STORY!
Ambling Alp II wrote:You once said that Duran won by only three points. 3 points is not a whipping. That is math.
The fight told a different story. Duran won outright between 3 points minimum to 5 points maximum. I don't buy that Sugar Ray fought The Hands of Stone's fight. I really don't buy that. Never bought it. Duran whupped him and that's all to it.
golden oldie wrote:Just watched the fight again, and Elmer is right for once. Duran DID in fact kick Leonards ass. What Leonard particularly disliked was Carlos Padilla slapping the fighters arms every time he tried to hold Duran for dear life, instead of forcing them apart, which would have allowed Leonard time and space to regroup and think. He made a big show of turning his whole body into shots on the inside, but most of them missed. The guy was simply out fought on the inside, and other than hold like a limpet, he had no idea how to stop Duran from bullying him. Even when he had Roberto on the ropes, he was turned and found himself having to try and fight his way off them.
Ambling Alp II wrote:You once said that Duran won by only three points. 3 points is not a whipping. That is math.
The fight told a different story. Duran won outright between 3 points minimum to 5 points maximum. I don't buy that Sugar Ray fought The Hands of Stone's fight. I really don't buy that. Never bought it. Duran whupped him and that's all to it.
You said Duran won by 3 points. Winning by just 3 points is not an ass kicking. It's not a whupping. It's winning a competitive fight. That's using math and logic. Start using your brain.
Ambling Alp II wrote:You once said that Duran won by only three points. 3 points is not a whipping. That is math.
The fight told a different story. Duran won outright between 3 points minimum to 5 points maximum. I don't buy that Sugar Ray fought The Hands of Stone's fight. I really don't buy that. Never bought it. Duran whupped him and that's all to it.
You said Duran won by 3 points. Winning by just 3 points is not an ass kicking. It's not a whupping. It's winning a competitive fight. That's using math and logic. Start using your brain.
And my brain told me it was an ass whupping. Duran kicked his ass!
Seamus wrote:Obviously your brain and your scorecard are on different pages.
Only a Sugar Ray fan boy would say something like that. Duran kicked his ass and that's all to it. I never bought that NONSENSE that Sugar Ray fought Duran's fight. He always fought that way. He just got his ass kicked. End of story.
Amen. We are supposed to pretend that Leonard was never better in their first fight because he didn't make excuses. But we are supposed to ignore the rematch because Quitter Boy had lame excuses. He was goofing off? Can we get any lamer?
We should just got with what actually happened:
Duran won a 15-round decision in the first fight. (His biggest worshipper had Duran winning by a whopping three points.)
Leonard won the rematch by 8th round TKO.
Seamus wrote:Leonard was never better in his career than the night he fought Duran in Montreal. That's as bizarre as it is ridiculous.
Did I say no excuses? Forgive me, I forgot there are myriads..... It is bizzare, ridiculous and apparently excused......let's hope it was signed by his mum.
Duran was actually a half pound heavier than Leonard, but why stop there, he wasn't a Lightweight, since Duran weighed 119 for his first pro fight, let's just say Leonard a Welterweight got beat by a Super bantamweight.
The 2nd fight was every bit as significant as the first fight.
buzz - I expect this out of elmer. All he ever does is say his guy is better and ignores any evidence to the contrary.
However you are better than this. I know you like Duran better. However, you usually are willing to be reasonable. You aren't being reasonable here.
Ambling Alp II wrote:The 2nd fight was every bit as significant as the first fight.
buzz - I expect this out of elmer. All he ever does is say his guy is better and ignores any evidence to the contrary.
However you are better than this. I know you like Duran better. However, you usually are willing to be reasonable. You aren't being reasonable here.
I just think Duran at his best was better than Ray at his best.....but there's evidence to support your take......if you feel the second fight was more defining.
I clearly do not believe that the second fight represents both men at their best.....I have the opposite opinion on that. I think I can defend it rather well.
disagreeing....is not the same as being unreasonable. I simply have a viewpoint. There's no particular "reason" or "lack of reason" that leads you and I to two different verdicts on this.
It's a lot like the debate between "tastes great" and "less filling". lol.
If you honestly think Duran was better at his best than Leonard at his, fine. I disagree but obviously we can't all agree on everything. It would be boring if we did.
I don't see any reason to say the first fight was more significant than the second.
I don't think you can make a serious argument that Leonard was at his best in the first fight. He was a bit off. And that's not an excuse. That is on Leonard and hurts his overall rating. (Of course he has many positives in his career as well.)
Same with Duran in the second. Wasn't his best fight. However, we should not buy lame excuses. That performance hurts Duran's overall rating. (Of course he also has many positives in his career as well.)
Alp we agree that every man has a responsibility to get himself to the church on time, and in shape.....so it's no slam on Ray.
What I'm saying...is that if you take the personalities out of it as well as any bias.....you can't hold the second fight to the standard of the first.
Same with the Ali Frazier affairs.
There is no way that Duran was going to repeat that performance after going hog wild and getting so out of shape between those fights......takes nothing from Ray.
But it is very difficult for any fair minded person to imagine that the Duran that showed up the second time was going to put on the same sort of performance.
Why can't the second fight be as significant as the first? You have not given any reasons.
You can argue that Ali-Frazier II was not as important because it was not for the title. (Ali-Frazier III was just as important.)
Duran-Leonard II was for the title.
Don't really care that Duran supposedly was not in shape for the rematch. That's on him. The fight was 5 months after the first, which is plenty of time.
If you are going to use that excuse you make an excuse for the losing fighter of any fight.
If Leonard would have won the first fight and Duran won the second, you would not being saying the first fight was more important.
Again all this amounts to is crybaby excuses because Duran lost.
What irritates Leonard's fans is that Duran whupped their guy WHEN BOTH WERE AT THEIR VERY BEST. It is the biggest and most anticipated fight outside the heavyweight division.
And that Leonard NEVER BEAT DURAN at his very best. He never did. That even irked the same Sugar Ray for years. It's still irking.
What irks Duran's fans is that Sugar Ray didn't gave Duran an immediate rematch just like Duran gave it to him.
But, when it was both at their best and well prepared, the winner was the great Roberto Duran!
