Decagon, I see nothing of Mosely's styling in Pryor at all, and I'm trying to be imaginivite and open minded as I review some of the old Aaron VHS's I have. The closest thing to today's fighters that I can see in Pryor is Sam Soliman. He can swarm and be all over the map....lots of heat but limited light.
Steve Martin hosted a Saturday night live episode once where he introduced Chris Farley and Adam Sandler and said "here is the greatest comedy act the world has ever seen" He went on to introduce the world to an act he called "The Energy Brothers". Martin went on to say "they have NO MATERIAL but have the greatest comic energy ever witnessed!"
Chris and Adam never said a word but ran around the stage screaming, hooting, jumping and going completey boundlessly crazy for about 5 minutes....took a bow and left the stage. During that time they did some funny things and got some laughs. Actually hit a few moments of comedy genius.....And NEVER repeated this particular skit.
I find that a good metaphor for this discussion. And I'm not saying Pryor was a joke in any way. Just not gifted with the greatest skills expected of his proffession, however he got everyones attention with a novel display, and though he had boundless energy on occasion....one has to wonder as with Chris (perhaps not Adam) just where did that "energy" come from?
There are multiple points to be made for sure, but the greater point here isn't questioning of drugs it's the questioning of skill and timing of carefully chosen opponents. Real sustainable gifts that that are evident in the great ones appear to be oddly intermittent or missing from his inventory as I watch his work. But wow I have to admit what energy he had at times. But remarkable inconsisitency.....you have to wonder what was up with that. I suspect some know and there is enough evidence in the films to support serious speculation.
This is an area I have done a bit of homework on lately though I don't think I will choose to foray any deeper into these questions I will leave that to others. But I felt compelled to give further comment.
Aaron Pryor V Oscar De La Hoya
I've got no problem with your comments, even if I disagree, I still find your point of view interesting......Jaclem wrote:..silkov....i was mainly answering your question of how many fights of pryor have "they" seen. As one of the they i can assure ..again...that i have seen more of his fights than anyone here. if there is someone who thinks otherwise, please enter a description of what you looked like at the time and i will tell you if i remember you from ringside...and i do mean ringside...and in the dressing room either before or after the fight.
as for my being a historian....of course i can be wrong..especially in theoreticals. however, i am not wrong in this one....and that damn buzzhead knew i'd get into it again when this thread came up. he sums up the outcome perfectly, so much so that he makes my comments superfluous but i keep coming back in the pryor discussions anyway...no matter how many times i promise myself not to.
I think what he's getting at is that Delahoya was bothered by Moselys speed... especially hand speed, Pryor was even faster than Mosely and threw far more punches... he would swamp Oscar and not let him dictate the fight. For me Oscar has always seemed bothered by speed and when his opponent doesn't let him dictate the pace of the fight. As for Pryor having a hollow record, surely you could say the same thing about Oscar... when you break down his record he really hasn't fought that many outstanding fighters... ok a lot of 'world champions' but how many of those guys would have been 'world champions' 20 years ago and many of Oscars best opponents were well past their best when he fought them. Arguello was still a tremendous fighter when he fought Pryor, I challenge anyone to watch their first fights and tell me that Arguello was a shot fighter... very few other 140ers would have beaten him that night... the fact that Arguello reigned at 3 divisions and was never beaten for any of his titles speaks for itself... his record puts the likes of Delahoyas to shame imo... you simply cannot compare the two imo Arguello was in a different class to Oscar as was Pryor...BoxBuzz wrote:Decagon, I see nothing of Mosely's styling in Pryor at all, and I'm trying to be imaginivite and open minded as I review some of the old Aaron VHS's I have. The closest thing to today's fighters that I can see in Pryor is Sam Soliman. He can swarm and be all over the map....lots of heat but limited light.
Steve Martin hosted a Saturday night live episode once where he introduced Chris Farley and Adam Sandler and said "here is the greatest comedy act the world has ever seen" He went on to introduce the world to an act he called "The Energy Brothers". Martin went on to say "they have NO MATERIAL but have the greatest comic energy ever witnessed!"
Chris and Adam never said a word but ran around the stage screaming, hooting, jumping and going completey boundlessly crazy for about 5 minutes....took a bow and left the stage. During that time they did some funny things and got some laughs. Actually hit a few moments of comedy genius.....And NEVER repeated this particular skit.
I find that a good metaphor for this discussion. And I'm not saying Pryor was a joke in any way. Just not gifted with the greatest skills expected of his proffession, however he got everyones attention with a novel display, and though he had boundless energy on occasion....one has to wonder as with Chris (perhaps not Adam) just where did that "energy" come from?
There are multiple points to be made for sure, but the greater point here isn't questioning of drugs it's the questioning of skill and timing of carefully chosen opponents. Real sustainable gifts that that are evident in the great ones appear to be oddly intermittent or missing from his inventory as I watch his work. But wow I have to admit what energy he had at times. But remarkable inconsisitency.....you have to wonder what was up with that. I suspect some know and there is enough evidence in the films to support serious speculation.
This is an area I have done a bit of homework on lately though I don't think I will choose to foray any deeper into these questions I will leave that to others. But I felt compelled to give further comment.
What are you talking about?Decagon wrote:It's styles that make fights, not hollow resumes. How could De la Hoya beat Pryor at 140 when he couldn't beat Mosley at 147? Pryor didn't have quite as good a chin as Mosley, but he was a much smarter fighter, and he had a lot more determination.
Pryor had one of the best chins of all time.
You know in this specific case I get more sure of this as I ponder.
Arguello was truly past his peak in my estimation, and Pryor fought above his pay grade and it has set the history books on fire. Granted it's no where near the fade that Cervantes had at the time Pryor dethroned him. IN addition Arguello was moving up in weight and Pryor was at his best weight. Pryor never accomplished much of anything else at all and was too timid to venture past his perfect weight.
DLH would have been pretty fast at this weight, naturally the bigger man and where I see the biggest discrepancy is skill and ring smarts. I hold to my belief and it only grows stronger as I reflect on this. I know I'm an old bastard and sometimes I hold on stubbornly to the old fighters being naturally better but I spend much of my time trying to "be real" on this subject. You may think I'm overcompensating this time, but I think not.
As far as his experimenting with "assistive elixers" I'm trying to keep that out of my thinking but it may be subconciously effecting my reasoning.
Arguello was truly past his peak in my estimation, and Pryor fought above his pay grade and it has set the history books on fire. Granted it's no where near the fade that Cervantes had at the time Pryor dethroned him. IN addition Arguello was moving up in weight and Pryor was at his best weight. Pryor never accomplished much of anything else at all and was too timid to venture past his perfect weight.
DLH would have been pretty fast at this weight, naturally the bigger man and where I see the biggest discrepancy is skill and ring smarts. I hold to my belief and it only grows stronger as I reflect on this. I know I'm an old bastard and sometimes I hold on stubbornly to the old fighters being naturally better but I spend much of my time trying to "be real" on this subject. You may think I'm overcompensating this time, but I think not.
As far as his experimenting with "assistive elixers" I'm trying to keep that out of my thinking but it may be subconciously effecting my reasoning.
Last edited by BoxBuzz on 01 Apr 2006, 12:18, edited 1 time in total.
I really don't think Arguello was past it, I have just about all his fights and there is very little deterioration... in fact I'd say that in the first fight he brought out his best form... he was inspired... just look at the amounts of punches he threw... this was not a shot or faded fighter by any means... and anyone who thinks Pryor had a weak chin should see some of the bombs that he took from Alexis that night. I can easily put Pryor vs Arguello up there with Leonard vs Duran 1 and Leonard vs Hearns 1.... in fact I'd say for sheer intensity and skills Pryor vs Arguello 1 surpasses both the previous fights imo.... these were two great fighters fighting at the top of their form, to say that Pryor fought a faded fighter that day is an injustice and just plain wrong....BoxBuzz wrote:You know in this specific case I get more sure of this as I ponder.
Arguello was truly past his peak in my estimation, and Pryor fought above his pay grade and it has set the history books on fire. Granted it's no where near the fade that Cervantes had at the time Pryor dethroned him. IN addition Arguello was moving up in weight and Pryor was at his best weight. Pryor never accomplished much of anything else at all and was too timid to venture past his perfect weight.
DLH would have been pretty fast at this weight, naturally the bigger man and where I see the biggest discrepancy is skill and ring smarts. I hold to my belief and it only grows stronger as I reflect on this. I know I'm an old bastard and sometimes I hold on stubbornly to the old fighters being naturally better but I spend much of my time trying to "be real" on this subject. You may think I'm overcompensating this time, but I think not.
I think Alexis quit after the Costello fight because of a heart problem if I remember correctly... because he was all set for some big fights at that point after beating Costello... don't know how he was then able to come back years later, but then thats boxing!... the Arguello who beat Costello was still capable of winning a title I think... he'd slowed quite a bit but he never relied on his speed as such anyway and much of his other skills were still there... especially the punch...expug wrote:Its odd that both Arguello and Billy Costello didnt fight again for years after they fought. Alexis scored a real nice one punch K.O and didnt fight again for something like eight years. By the time he came back it was violin time.
Perhaps you think I overemphasized some of my points, I did grant that Pryor had a few "remarkable fights". And had what I consider to be a rather lackluster career schedule. Arguello was reaching in size and attempting to overachieve. Pryor was right where he belonged. I'm not sure if we're having a give and take based on logic or passion.
Some may have the end in mind as they wordsmith here. I will grant some of your assumptions and deductions but they all seem to run in one direction only, to support your desired outcome. Do you really see this as such a slam dunk?
You have granted me not a single point...One would have to guess I'm just doing some Alzheimer's influenced babbling...on the keyboard no less!
I think the most compelling evidence does not lie in the Arguello moments but in the entire record of both fighters. The naturally bigger more scientific fighter would win this in my estimation I don't see speed as a determining factor DLH was not lethargic. DLH's career is more transparent and easy to discern and I beleive he really did fight a better overall schedule.
For those of you think that Aaron would easily navigate these waters, we simply will agree to disagree. Barring any little bottles, tampering with the judges, or the arrival of Fan Man at a crtical moment in the action, I maintain my position on this one. I continue to have great respect for Decagon, Expug and Silkov even when they find themselves in an error riddled briar patch of reasoning.
I got into this because I thought this was a very well imagined theoretical. Kudos to Ezzard! He got us all thinking on this one. I think he also held the answer all along. However I beleive I have now cleared up any confusion he or anyone might have had on this subject.
I am reviewing tapes of both fighters for this weekend, and have found this to be one of the more enjoyable discussions I've had in a long time here! If it turns out after my soujoun that I may have been wrong I will report later on the error of my ways. I will also agree to up to 20 hours of community service at my local soup Kitchen.
Some may have the end in mind as they wordsmith here. I will grant some of your assumptions and deductions but they all seem to run in one direction only, to support your desired outcome. Do you really see this as such a slam dunk?
You have granted me not a single point...One would have to guess I'm just doing some Alzheimer's influenced babbling...on the keyboard no less!
I think the most compelling evidence does not lie in the Arguello moments but in the entire record of both fighters. The naturally bigger more scientific fighter would win this in my estimation I don't see speed as a determining factor DLH was not lethargic. DLH's career is more transparent and easy to discern and I beleive he really did fight a better overall schedule.
For those of you think that Aaron would easily navigate these waters, we simply will agree to disagree. Barring any little bottles, tampering with the judges, or the arrival of Fan Man at a crtical moment in the action, I maintain my position on this one. I continue to have great respect for Decagon, Expug and Silkov even when they find themselves in an error riddled briar patch of reasoning.
I got into this because I thought this was a very well imagined theoretical. Kudos to Ezzard! He got us all thinking on this one. I think he also held the answer all along. However I beleive I have now cleared up any confusion he or anyone might have had on this subject.
I am reviewing tapes of both fighters for this weekend, and have found this to be one of the more enjoyable discussions I've had in a long time here! If it turns out after my soujoun that I may have been wrong I will report later on the error of my ways. I will also agree to up to 20 hours of community service at my local soup Kitchen.
Well I still go for the Hawk.... aside from relative opposition which we could probably argue about for the next 10 years, styles make fights yeah, and Pryor for me had the swarming non-stop style to outwork and imo stop Delahoya... its worth remembering that Pryor was really a natural Lightweight who was forced to go to the 140 division because he was ducked at 135... the fact that he was able to beat the naturally bigger fighters that he met at 140 speaks volumes about his strength and fitness... against Arguello Pryor was arguably the smaller man yet he was the only fighter that I've seen able to out muscle Arguello as well as out speed him... despite all the antics Pryor was a real dynamo and very strong fighter and he'd over power Oscar imo humble though it is...BoxBuzz wrote:Perhaps you think I overemphasized some of my points, I did grant that Pryor had a few "remarkable fights". And had what I consider to be a rather lackluster career schedule. Arguello was reaching in size and attempting to overachieve. Pryor was right where he belonged. I'm not sure if we're having a give and take based on logic or passion.
Some may have the end in mind as they wordsmith here. I will grant some of your assumptions and deductions but they all seem to run in one direction only, to support your desired outcome. Do you really see this as such a slam dunk?
You have granted me not a single point...One would have to guess I'm just doing some Alzheimer's influenced babbling...on the keyboard no less!
I think the most compelling evidence does not lie in the Arguello moments but in the entire record of both fighters. The naturally bigger more scientific fighter would win this in my estimation I don't see speed as a determining factor DLH was not lethargic. DLH's career is more transparent and easy to discern and I beleive he really did fight a better overall schedule.
For those of you think that Aaron would easily navigate these waters, we simply will agree to disagree. Barring any little bottles, tampering with the judges, or the arrival of Fan Man at a crtical moment in the action, I maintain my position on this one. I continue to have great respect for Decagon, Expug and Silkov even when they find themselves in an error riddled briar patch of reasoning.
I got into this because I thought this was a very well imagined theoretical. Kudos to Ezzard! He got us all thinking on this one. I think he also held the answer all along. However I beleive I have now cleared up any confusion he or anyone might have had on this subject.
I am reviewing tapes of both fighters for this weekend, and have found this to be one of the more enjoyable discussions I've had in a long time here! If it turns out after my soujoun that I may have been wrong I will report later on the error of my ways. I will also agree to up to 20 hours of community service at my local soup Kitchen.
8) ..okay...one more pryor post and that's it. just the question i've asked often......
.. please tell me...who were the lightweights that ducked aaron pryor?
from here on.....i'll try again to use pryor restraint.
buzzy..."wordsmith" as a verb!!!! marvelous. a challenge.....can you do the same thing with "pubic crabs"?
.. please tell me...who were the lightweights that ducked aaron pryor?
from here on.....i'll try again to use pryor restraint.
buzzy..."wordsmith" as a verb!!!! marvelous. a challenge.....can you do the same thing with "pubic crabs"?
Is this a trick question? If they were ducking Pryor they would have to be lightweights correct?Jaclem wrote:..okay...one more pryor post and that's it. just the question i've asked often......
.. please tell me...who were the lightweights that ducked aaron pryor?
Just kidding....I'll stick to math here.....the answer is "0".
I thought that the fact that Pryor was ducked at 135 is common knowledge... he was highly rated at 135 but couldn't get a title shot so moved up to 140...BoxBuzz wrote:Is this a trick question? If they were ducking Pryor they would have to be lightweights correct?Jaclem wrote:..okay...one more pryor post and that's it. just the question i've asked often......
.. please tell me...who were the lightweights that ducked aaron pryor?
Just kidding....I'll stick to math here.....the answer is "0".
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Roll With The Punches
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Common perception perhaps. I'll go along with that. I am of the opinion it was an incorrect assumption. I lived In St Louis and followed the Cincinatte sports pages at the time. I only wish you could pull those old articles up on the internet.silkov wrote:I thought that the fact that Pryor was ducked at 135 is common knowledge... he was highly rated at 135 but couldn't get a title shot so moved up to 140...BoxBuzz wrote:Is this a trick question? If they were ducking Pryor they would have to be lightweights correct?Jaclem wrote:..okay...one more pryor post and that's it. just the question i've asked often......
.. please tell me...who were the lightweights that ducked aaron pryor?
Just kidding....I'll stick to math here.....the answer is "0".
Well why didn't the top lightweights fight Pryor?... he certainly never ducked anyone... he even offered to go down to 135 to fight Mancini but the fight never happened....BoxBuzz wrote:Common perception perhaps. I'll go along with that. I am of the opinion it was an incorrect assumption. I lived In St Louis and followed the Cincinatte sports pages at the time. I only wish you could pull those old articles up on the internet.silkov wrote:I thought that the fact that Pryor was ducked at 135 is common knowledge... he was highly rated at 135 but couldn't get a title shot so moved up to 140...BoxBuzz wrote: Is this a trick question? If they were ducking Pryor they would have to be lightweights correct?
Just kidding....I'll stick to math here.....the answer is "0".
I would say very careful management, talking the talk about fighting guys like Mancini and Davis but making things difficult for those events to actually manifest. He was perhaps the first of the very micro managed perceptions based fighters. He would navigate today's waters perfectly.
Aaron had a surprise loss in Ft Lauderdale and a bit of a gift decision in Atlantic city in his waning days. And was put to the test by Summerhaus early on though I saw that fight and I agree he won.
You can't say DLH avoided anyone. I think the details regarding Pryor are somewhat the opposite of your perception.
I think a Mancine fight would have been great entertainment. How about you? Davis would have been a great moment had it happened wonder why it didnt?
In some ways very much ahead of hist time.
A. Carefully micro managed
B. Remarkable moments at his peak exploited to the max and perhaps arrived at in not the most "cricket" of ways.
C. Rapid and startling Demise
= not one of the greatest, in my book.
Much of my thoughts on this are coming about upon reflection later in life, Like Tyson, the hawks career is losing luster as time goes on and I think about all the details. I liked Aaron during his run, and like I said was in the audience a few times when he fought. He got my butt in the seat....very well managed.
Aaron had a surprise loss in Ft Lauderdale and a bit of a gift decision in Atlantic city in his waning days. And was put to the test by Summerhaus early on though I saw that fight and I agree he won.
You can't say DLH avoided anyone. I think the details regarding Pryor are somewhat the opposite of your perception.
I think a Mancine fight would have been great entertainment. How about you? Davis would have been a great moment had it happened wonder why it didnt?
In some ways very much ahead of hist time.
A. Carefully micro managed
B. Remarkable moments at his peak exploited to the max and perhaps arrived at in not the most "cricket" of ways.
C. Rapid and startling Demise
= not one of the greatest, in my book.
Much of my thoughts on this are coming about upon reflection later in life, Like Tyson, the hawks career is losing luster as time goes on and I think about all the details. I liked Aaron during his run, and like I said was in the audience a few times when he fought. He got my butt in the seat....very well managed.
On the subject of management Buzz, I know that Mike Jones and Dennis Rappaport had Howard Davis. They were at times a little hesitant to match Cooney tough. Do you think they might have been this way with Davis too? Is it possible they werent anxious for a Pryor match? I dont know . I never heard that they avoided Aaron , just asking your opinion.
I wouldn't say Pryor was carefully managed at all... while the likes of Leonard was fighting for huge purses from the start Pryor fought for peanuts early on and struggled to find opposition... as for his early career demise that was due to the drugs but unlike Tyson Pryor was not a flawed fighter in the ring with a bully mentality the fact that he kept his career together for so long is a testament to his determination and talent... he had all sorts going on in his life for most of his career... he went into the Arguello rematch with a detached retina and was lost to drugs after that fight basically.... in fact if you read his life story the most amazing thing about Pryor is that he managed to have the success that he did his life from day one was pure chaos....BoxBuzz wrote:I would say very careful management, talking the talk about fighting guys like Mancini and Davis but making things difficult for those events to actually manifest. He was perhaps the first of the very micro managed perceptions based fighters. He would navigate today's waters perfectly.
Aaron had a surprise loss in Ft Lauderdale and a bit of a gift decision in Atlantic city in his waning days. And was put to the test by Summerhaus early on though I saw that fight and I agree he won.
You can't say DLH avoided anyone. I think the details regarding Pryor are somewhat the opposite of your perception.
I think a Mancine fight would have been great entertainment. How about you? Davis would have been a great moment had it happened wonder why it didnt?
In some ways very much ahead of hist time.
A. Carefully micro managed
B. Remarkable moments at his peak exploited to the max and perhaps arrived at in not the most "cricket" of ways.
C. Rapid and startling Demise
= not one of the greatest, in my book.
Much of my thoughts on this are coming about upon reflection later in life, Like Tyson, the hawks career is losing luster as time goes on and I think about all the details. I liked Aaron during his run, and like I said was in the audience a few times when he fought. He got my butt in the seat....very well managed.