Rocky Marciano versus Modern Heavyweights via Punch Count

[Oswald]

PCT's argument is based solely on "modern is better".

He also thinks that Muhammad Ali and Ray Robinson have primitive skills, are unfit and wouldn't last a round against Fres Oquendo and Juan Lazcano, respectively. It's because of improvements to nutrition, you see.

[polecateddy]

Perfected the art?? Wow. I mean wow. Well it doesn't hurt when your competition is a complete joke.

Exactly.

'Perfected the art'. Laughable.

if their performances against Sanders, Lewis, Brewster, Puritty, and Peter look like perfection to you, consider an eyeball transplant.

Vitali Klitschko's awkward, ungainly style is as crude as the crudest heavyweight captured on film.

Can't believe this troll has sucked you all into this lunatic merry-go-round for over a month now.

The perfected the art of fighting tall is both something I agree with, and is often how I have seen the brother's style described in both Boxing News and Boxing Monthly.

[Ambling Alp II]

Perfected the art?? Wow. I mean wow. Well it doesn't hurt when your competition is a complete joke.

Exactly.

'Perfected the art'. Laughable.

if their performances against Sanders, Lewis, Brewster, Puritty, and Peter look like perfection to you, consider an eyeball transplant.

Vitali Klitschko's awkward, ungainly style is as crude as the crudest heavyweight captured on film.

Can't believe this troll has sucked you all into this lunatic merry-go-round for over a month now.

I guess it's natural to refute idiotic statements. Some people seem to think the sport began the day that they became interested in it and no amount of logic will get through to them. You are right; we should have stopped with this long ago.

[HomicideHenry]

I didn't claim I know modern heavyweights average punch stats. But earlier in this thread there were punch stats posted for V. Klitschko and not-too-old heavyweight Holyfield, and they were similar. Looking at old notes I have from compubox, in 2003 "the heavyweight average is 19 jabs per round and 46 total punches per round".

The remarkable thing for me in all this is that 90% of Marciano's punches were hooks. Every punch he threw, regardless, was thrown with everything he had in it. I can't say the same for other heavyweights who have close to similar numbers. Factor in Marciano's punch rates were that high against his #1 mandatories is also phenomenal when I have showed others only came close when they fought old, or limited opponents.

[polecateddy]

No proof of this, but I suspect this and other similar threads have led eagle-eyed Boxing News journalists to do a big article on who is the best heavy this week, together with fantasy match ups.

[HomicideHenry]

Bump (for later review)

[SaadOffTheDeck]

Is this the thread where you claim Wlad throws close to 2,000 punches against David Haye?

I may have said it before, but that was easily the dumbest post I've ever read.

[HomicideHenry]

Is this the thread where you claim Wlad throws close to 2,000 punches against David Haye?

I may have said it before, but that was easily the dumbest post I've ever read.

I clarified my mistake in current scene lol I blame not having enough coffee.... what I was meaning was the punch totals at a fights conclusion with Marcianoesque in number.... I copied and pasted (page three I believe) from this thread and put it in current scene...

[SaadOffTheDeck]

Is this the thread where you claim Wlad throws close to 2,000 punches against David Haye?

I may have said it before, but that was easily the dumbest post I've ever read.

I clarified my mistake in current scene lol I blame not having enough coffee.... what I was meaning was the punch totals at a fights conclusion with Marcianoesque in number.... I copied and pasted (page three I believe) from this thread and put it in current scene...

LOL, that makes more sense if you meant he throws 40-50 power punches a fight.

[gilgamesh]

Is this the thread where you claim Wlad throws close to 2,000 punches against David Haye?

I may have said it before, but that was easily the dumbest post I've ever read.

I clarified my mistake in current scene lol I blame not having enough coffee.... what I was meaning was the punch totals at a fights conclusion with Marcianoesque in number.... I copied and pasted (page three I believe) from this thread and put it in current scene...

Marciano threw more punches in 3 or 4 rounds than Wlad throws in 3 or 4 full 12 round fights.

[Ezzard]

There are people on this forum who have written more words than Shakespeare.

Draw your own conclusions...

[HomicideHenry]

Rest in peace Rocco Francis Marchegiano

[Tomasino]

I clarified my mistake in current scene lol I blame not having enough coffee.... what I was meaning was the punch totals at a fights conclusion with Marcianoesque in number.... I copied and pasted (page three I believe) from this thread and put it in current scene...

Marciano threw more punches in 3 or 4 rounds than Wlad throws in 3 or 4 full 12 round fights.

Out of interest how many of Marciano's punches actually landed, compared to Vitali's? Personally I would back Stevie Wonder to land more punches than the perennially useless Marciano in a 15 round fight. I consider him ( Marciano, not Wonder ) to be the worst excuse for the justification of this wonderful sport. I honestly believe a performing APE would have given the impression of having more co-ordination than the f&&&ing pathetic Marciano.

There is a clip of Fred Astaire walking out of a hotel, and as he goes down the steps, he flicks the cigarette he is smoking, and without breaking stride he extinguishes the cigarette. There is every reason to believe Ray Robinson could have done the same. It is beyond human comprehension that the moronic Marciano, could have even contemplated such a feat. He would have probably ended up burning the hotel down.

Marciano fought like an Appleby Fair bare knuckle gypsy. " You hit me, then I'll hit you "


And people have the affront to criticise guys like Mayweather. YOU SAW WHAT HAPPENS TO THE CRUDE SLUGGING IDIOTS LIKE MARCIANO LAST SATURDAY FFS. Let it go with garbage like Marciano. All right in its day, but completely irrelevant in these times.

So because Ray Robinson idolised the way Fred Astaire pinged a fag, Rocky Marciano was pathetic...is that the jist?

[HomicideHenry]

And people have the affront to criticise guys like Mayweather. YOU SAW WHAT HAPPENS TO THE CRUDE SLUGGING IDIOTS LIKE MARCIANO LAST SATURDAY FFS. Let it go with garbage like Marciano. All right in its day, but completely irrelevant in these times.

Floyd Mayweather never fought a guy quite like Rocky Marciano either... Imagine if Maidana had greater conditioning and hit quadruple as hard... That's what Floyd would be up against if Marciano was a welterweight.

[HomicideHenry]

You honestly believe Floyd won that first Castillo fight? Lol

[HomicideHenry]

That's interesting because I don't know of anyone who'd rank Castillo in the top ten lightweights of all time, and yet I don't know of any who doesn't have Marciano in the top ten heavyweights of all time. So I think personal bias is blurring your vision.

[HomicideHenry]

Different eras @ losses.... You honestly think Mayweather would walk out unscathed in an era when the money and opportunities were so tight, that you had to fight four or more times a month? Often against men of equal ability? When referees were less squeamish and demanded action from fighters? Etc.... He wouldn't, and that's no disgrace, considering so many great fighters often had double digit losses.

Consider this, as well... Guys often had 60, 70, 80, or even more than 100 matches... More times than not they didn't get a shot at ONE CHAMPIONSHIP until their 30th or 40th contest, most times never... Mayweather in any other era, would have been a one division champion at best, and probably only defend it less than a handful of times.

That's why alot of people marveled at Marciano going undefeated in his era, because it was virtually impossible to do so. Do the totals. 49 fights, not counting exhibitions and even amateur bouts he slipped in on occasion, divided by 9 years as a competitor that's 5.4 bouts per year. Compare that to Mayweather's career (1996-2017) it computes to 2.3 matches per year. There's no real comparison, especially when heavyweights almost always fight less than lower weight boxers.

SRR had 200 bouts, in a span from 1940 to 1965, 25 years... 200 divided by 25... 8 fights per year... Again, Mayweather in comparison doesn't really fit in with the all time greats. This era of ours is so protective, so comfortable, so cushy that if any champion from yesteryear was in our modern times they could go 100-0 let alone 50-0.

[HomicideHenry]

Mayweather had 10 fights in 1997. The most Marciano ever had in a single year was 13 in 1949.

After he won his first title he fought an average twice a year for 9 years. Exactly the same as Marciano did for his 3 year tenure.

NEXT.

Difference is Marciano's kayo percentage went UP as champion, rather than reverse. Besides, Marciano was always chasing the dollar. He wanted the fights that generated the most money. Unfortunately big $$$$ contenders weren't around. Hence the six title defenses.

[Kalan]

Rocky Marciano versus Don Cockell

-Note: Cockell was the ONLY man who wasn't Marciano's #1 mandatory that he defended the title against; Cockell, the British & Commonwealth champion was ranked #2 in the world

Round Six: 36 punches thrown

Round Eight: 116 punches thrown (and most landed)

Round Nine: 10, knockdown, 21, knockdown, 23, fight is stopped

Don Cockell was knocked out several times in previous fights - including KO losses to MIDDLEWEIGHT Randy Turpin -- and a brutal 4-round KO loss to feather punching LIGHT HEAVYWEIGHT Jimmy Slade who had a 17% KO ratio... That tells you the low quality of the Heavyweight Division when Rocky was champ.

When Rocky retired the next Heavyweight Champ was 21-year-old, 182-pound Floyd Patterson -- who disposed of old Light Heavyweight Archie Moore very easily to win the title.. Patterson dominated Moore and won much easier and faster than Rocky did when he fought Moore -- and without getting decked like Rocky did... How long do you figure Don Cockell would have lasted with Mike Tyson??? ... 20 seconds?

[HomicideHenry]

Marciano never fought a guy smaller than himself if I'm not mistaken. Even Kid Matthews and Archie Moore were bigger than Marciano either in height or reach or weight. As for age... Not quite Marciano's fault... He fought what was available to him. We could get into particulars, but the age thing is quite overdone when it comes to criticizing Marciano. In truth Muhammad Ali fought substantially older men, far more often than Marciano did.

[Kalan]

"Don Cockell was knocked out several times in previous fights - including KO losses to MIDDLEWEIGHT Randy Turpin -- and a brutal 4-round KO loss to feather punching LIGHT HEAVYWEIGHT Jimmy Slade who had a 17% KO ratio... That tells you the low quality of the Heavyweight Division when Rocky was champ."

"When Rocky retired the next Heavyweight Champ was 21-year-old, 182-pound Floyd Patterson -- who disposed of old Light Heavyweight Archie Moore very easily to win the title.. Patterson dominated Moore and won much easier and faster than Rocky did when he fought Moore -- and without getting decked like Rocky did... How long do you figure Don Cockell would have lasted with Mike Tyson??? ... 20 seconds?"

Homicide Henry says.., "Marciano never fought a guy smaller than himself"

NOT true... Harry Matthews was 179 so I don't know how that makes him "bigger" than Marciano... Ted Lowry was 177 and change... Harry Haft weighed under the Light Heavyweight limit, 174 and change... Light Heavyweight Bob Jefferson weighed 172... Eddie Ross weighed 175... John Edwards weighed 173 and change... Harry Bilazarian weighed 175... All of those Light Heavyweights were even smaller than Rocky.

Rocky never fought a good Heavyweight the size of Foreman, Liston, Lewis, the Klitschko Bros, or Joshua... Forget that because Joshua is 6'6" X 250... Marciano never even fought a good fighter who weighed as little as 210...Their will never be a Heavyweight era as weak as the Marciano era... In his Title Fights Rocky only fought 1 guy who weighed over 200 and that was 205 Don Cockell... Cockell was very fat and had previously been knocked out by Middleweight Randy Turpin and feather punching Light Heavyweight Jimmy Slade as I'll remind you.. You seem to forget quickly.

[HomicideHenry]

I'd argue that the early 80's as well as the Jack Johnson era was as weak or weaker than the era of Marciano. Hell, I'd argue (on talent alone) that since Lennox Lewis the heavyweight division has been piss poor save for the KLITSCHKO brothers.

Truth of the matter is this, Marciano could have easily went beyond 50-0-0, there was simply nobody out there worthwhile until Sonny Liston really broke through. He could have beaten Earl Walls, Bob Baker, Bob Satterfield, Nino Valdes, etc. and quite frankly he would have beaten Floyd Patterson.

Why? You seem to forget the extreme amount of dodging, sidestepping and outright games Cus D'Amato played to keep the belt on Patterson. You also tend to forget that D'Amato blocked Marciano from getting Ingemar Johansson. Why? Cus he knew Marciano would regain the title and that Floyd would probably never get a chance again.

As for size, I said (read closely next time) that everyone Marciano fought was EITHER taller, heavier or had a much longer reach. You're twisting my words around.

[Caractacus]

and who said if Marciano hadn't retired that he wouldn't have given Sonny Liston much of a fight ?
Did you see his fight with Eddie Machen ?
Do you think The Rock would have been too intimated by Liston's size and reach to
just stand and get pounded and not to do nothing ?
The Rock would have just kept on coming...and coming...and coming.
Sonny Liston would have probably just get discombobblulated mentally at some point from it alone.

[HomicideHenry]

and who said if Marciano hadn't retired that he wouldn't have given Sonny Liston much of a fight ?
Did you see his fight with Eddie Machen ?
Do you think The Rock would have been too intimated by Liston's size and reach to
just stand and get pounded and not to do nothing ?
The Rock would have just kept on coming...and coming...and coming.
Sonny Liston would have probably just get discombobblulated mentally at some point from it alone.

Marciano certainly wouldn't have been intimidated one iota by Liston, but I don't think Liston was a contender until late 1958-1959. I think if Marciano fought @ 2 bouts per year by 1958 he'd of been 54-0 and maybe would have taken Liston on. He'd of maybe been too old, to worn down, etc to last any real time with Rocky... But Marciano had Liston pegged early on, saying he was a bully that would with away the moment someone stood up to him.

Could Marciano of done it? I have a hard time imagining it. But I do believe Rocky would have dug down deep and would have upped his punch rate as he always done when in danger and would have given Liston a brutal scrap for at least 5-6 rounds. If he couldn't get Liston early, forget it.

[Caractacus]

Marciano would get low and inside and whack Liston to the body,hard and often.