what featherweight in history could beat a prime willie pep

BrocktonBlockbuster49 · Post by **BrocktonBlockbuster49** » 03 Apr 2006, 17:28

willie pep IMO is the greatest featherweight in history.

perhaps sandy saddler, or henry armstrong?

i think a peak willie pep beats anyone feather in history

mattyp151 · Post by **mattyp151** » 03 Apr 2006, 17:31

He may not have been prime, but Saddler beat Pep 3 times, didn't he?

BrocktonBlockbuster49 · Post by **BrocktonBlockbuster49** » 03 Apr 2006, 17:34

Mattyp151 wrote:He may not have been prime, but Saddler beat Pep 3 times, didn't he?

yes however, he only beat a near prime pep twice, in the 1st and 3rd fights.

however pep was well ahead on points in the 3rd fight until he had to quit because of dislocated shoulder. he didnt want to fight one of the greatest feathers of all time with 1 arm.

saddler claimed after pep quit " dislocated shoulder? nuts. it was my kidnew punches."

however willie peps absolute prime was pre plane crash

mattyp151 · Post by **mattyp151** » 03 Apr 2006, 17:42

Also a lot of controversy in those fights. About Pep taking dives, if I'm not msitaken.

Seamus · Post by **Seamus** » 03 Apr 2006, 17:44

Didn't Pep once say that Saddler was the dirtiest fighter he had ever seen.

mattyp151 · Post by **mattyp151** » 03 Apr 2006, 17:47

Seamus wrote:Didn't Pep once say that Saddler was the dirtiest fighter he had ever seen.

I know the fights had a ton of fouls, deduction type stuff and shit in them.

iceman21287 · Post by **iceman21287** » 03 Apr 2006, 17:50

BrocktonBlockbuster49 wrote:willie pep IMO is the greatest featherweight in history.

perhaps sandy saddler, or henry armstrong?

i think a peak willie pep beats anyone feather in history

Homicide Hank is my pick for greatest Welterweight of all-time, but as far as featherweights go it's gotta be Pep.

Grimm · Post by **Grimm** » 03 Apr 2006, 18:09

I think Saddler could 5 out of 10, and Armstrong might be able to.

elmersalsa · Post by **elmersalsa** » 03 Apr 2006, 18:15

Salvador Sanchez, Eusebio Pedroza or Alexis Arguello were very good to beat him

BoxBuzz · Post by **BoxBuzz** » 03 Apr 2006, 18:19

You can give Saddler a "got your number" pass and I still think Pep may be the best all time. But it sure keeps the debate alive because how do you argue with Saddler's success over Pep? Ultimately you have to resort to excuses. So for the black and white thinkers there is no getting around the fact that on paper Saddler looks superior.

I am not burdened with the "black and white clinical thinking syndrome" and for those of you who are not familiar with the terminology it is not race I refer to but "styles of brainwork" the philisophical versus the data input folks. So for me it's Pep, but I look pretty weak when I'm debating the Saddler supporters. So I just typically order another round and change the subject.

Expug · Post by **Expug** » 03 Apr 2006, 18:24

I think there are quite a few former champs that could beat Pep. Ruben Olivares, Salvador Sanchez , Wilfredo Gomez, to name a few. I think Pep was a helluva fighter , but maybe not as great as many people think. The best fighter he fought was Saddler who thrashed him three times I believe. He may have the greatest record in history, but the best guys he fought gave him a tough time. Maybe Im a little biased . The Lulu Perez fight and the Tommy Collins fight were either knockout losses or he went in the tank as many evidently suspected. Those fights remove a little luster in my opinion. I know Saddler fought him dirty, but Pep was no choirboy in those fights either.

BoxBuzz · Post by **BoxBuzz** » 03 Apr 2006, 18:28

I don't mean to split hairs but "finest fighter" and who can win head to head don't always have the same meaning for me.

Sanchez would be hard for Willie to beat as was Saddler, but when you step in and factor the "styles make fights" aspect it gets fuzzy. Won't it be great when we finally get this "time travel" thing down and we can settle these bets?

Expug · Post by **Expug** » 03 Apr 2006, 18:35

I agree Buzz and that is why , when I look at Sonny Liston when he was in his prime , I consider him a devastating fighter because his style should be able to destroy any Heavyweight in history. However there are too many other factors that go into making a great fighter. And in some other departments it appears that he fell short. ... Sorry about getting off subject there.

surf-bat · Post by **surf-bat** » 03 Apr 2006, 18:50

BrocktonBlockbuster49 wrote:willie pep IMO is the greatest featherweight in history.

perhaps sandy saddler, or henry armstrong?

i think a peak willie pep beats anyone feather in history

I don't think Pep had the strength to hold off Hurricane Hank. Too strong and too relentless. If Willie wants to survive the distance he's going to have to content himself with picking off as many shots as he can. The second he goes on offense he's overwhelmed and forced to go back into defensive mode. I don't see how he wins this one.

Saddler's physical advantages give him the nod over Pep in a best 2 of 3 fight series.

Sanchez-Pep is a great fight. Hard to pick a winner.

Arguello is too slow of hand and foot, IMO. Pep would box rings around him.

Eder Jofre vs. Pep is a purist's dream fight.

BrocktonBlockbuster49 · Post by **BrocktonBlockbuster49** » 03 Apr 2006, 23:20

expug wrote:I think there are quite a few former champs that could beat Pep. Ruben Olivares, Salvador Sanchez , Wilfredo Gomez, to name a few. I think Pep was a helluva fighter , but maybe not as great as many people think. The best fighter he fought was Saddler who thrashed him three times I believe. He may have the greatest record in history, but the best guys he fought gave him a tough time. Maybe Im a little biased . The Lulu Perez fight and the Tommy Collins fight were either knockout losses or he went in the tank as many evidently suspected. Those fights remove a little luster in my opinion. I know Saddler fought him dirty, but Pep was no choirboy in those fights either.

? pep also thrased saddler once, and pep was far ahead on points in the 3rd fight when he dislocated his shoulder and had to quit. the series could have easily been 2-1 right here. the 4th fight i throw out, since by then pep was sliding badly. saddler never fought a absolute prime pep. he fought a post plane crash pep, and still pep managed to beat him easily one of the times. pep also beat great fighters like manuel ortiz, chalky wright.

i think ur underating pep here, to think bantam or super bantams like ruben olivared and wilfredo gomez beat a peak willie pep is far beyond reality. pep was far too fast, elusive, and skilled for these guys.

BrocktonBlockbuster49 · Post by **BrocktonBlockbuster49** » 03 Apr 2006, 23:23

Eder Jofre vs. Pep is a purist's dream fight.

jofre was a bantam weight, no way he beats willie pep.

willie pep was special, one of the best fighters i have ever seen on film. hes truelly special. the best featherweight of all time,

HomicideHenry · Post by **HomicideHenry** » 03 Apr 2006, 23:36

Only man I could ever imagining beating Pep would be "Homicide Hank" Henry Armstrong.

I almost put Armstrong just beneath Sugar Ray Robinson as the 2nd best fighter there ever was, except Armstrong in one aspect held three titles at different weights at same time, and Robinson only won welter, middle. and failed to capture the Light Heavy crown.

If anyone could do it, it would have been Armstrong. Pep was the greater boxer by a big margin---but Armstrong could do it all, body, box, slug with the best of them.

surf-bat · Post by **surf-bat** » 03 Apr 2006, 23:42

BrocktonBlockbuster49 wrote:
Eder Jofre vs. Pep is a purist's dream fight.
jofre was a bantam weight, no way he beats willie pep.

willie pep was special, one of the best fighters i have ever seen on film. hes truelly special. the best featherweight of all time,

No, Jofre was also a featherweight. A featherweight CHAMPION to be exact and a pretty darn great one. Ask Vicente Saldivar.

BrocktonBlockbuster49 · Post by **BrocktonBlockbuster49** » 03 Apr 2006, 23:48

Nero3000 wrote:
BrocktonBlockbuster49 wrote:
Eder Jofre vs. Pep is a purist's dream fight.
jofre was a bantam weight, no way he beats willie pep.

willie pep was special, one of the best fighters i have ever seen on film. hes truelly special. the best featherweight of all time,
No, Jofre was also a featherweight. A featherweight CHAMPION to be exact and a pretty darn great one. Ask Vicente Saldivar.

no way 37 year old well past it jofre beats pep, u must be kidding me. vincent sadivar was way over the hill when jofre beat him as well.

both jofre and saldivar were no longer great fighters when they fought eachother. certainly no where near a peak willie pep.

btw, i think pep beats armstrong

surf-bat · Post by **surf-bat** » 03 Apr 2006, 23:52

BrocktonBlockbuster49 wrote:
Nero3000 wrote:
BrocktonBlockbuster49 wrote: jofre was a bantam weight, no way he beats willie pep.

willie pep was special, one of the best fighters i have ever seen on film. hes truelly special. the best featherweight of all time,
No, Jofre was also a featherweight. A featherweight CHAMPION to be exact and a pretty darn great one. Ask Vicente Saldivar.

no way 37 year old well past it jofre beats pep, u must be kidding me. vincent sadivar was way over the hill when jofre beat him as well.

both jofre and saldivar were no longer great fighters when they fought eachother. certainly no where near a peak willie pep.

btw, i think pep beats armstrong

Didn't say that he would beat him. I said it would be a purist's dream. Jofre was that good, even at Feather and slightly past his prime.

I think Willie would be lucky to go the distance with Armstrong, let alone beat him. More skilled, yes. But unable to stop the avalanche of leather coming his way.

Expug · Post by **Expug** » 04 Apr 2006, 00:08

Brock, you have always made outstanding arguments to back up your points. Thats why its always good to hear your point of view. The thing about fighters is in order to be considered great, they need a defining fight against another great fighter to be considered great. I know it goes against what almost all boxing historians say , but I dont have Pep as one of the greatest fighters in history. Mainly because out of his million wins there is no victory over a great fighter OTHER than Saddler , and we know how that series went. Im not saying Willie wasnt tremendous , but history has been real kind to him especialy in light of a couple peculiar fights that were thought to be tank jobs by many. Lulu Perez and Tommy Collins. His record is one of Boxing histories best but take a good look at it .

surf-bat · Post by **surf-bat** » 04 Apr 2006, 00:14

expug wrote:Brock, you have always made outstanding arguments to back up your points. Thats why its always good to hear your point of view. The thing about fighters is in order to be considered great, they need a defining fight against another great fighter to be considered great. I know it goes against what almost all boxing historians say , but I dont have Pep as one of the greatest fighters in history. Mainly because out of his million wins there is no victory over a great fighter OTHER than Saddler , and we know how that series went. Im not saying Willie wasnt tremendous , but history has been real kind to him especialy in light of a couple peculiar fights that were thought to be tank jobs by many. Lulu Perez and Tommy Collins. His record is one of Boxing histories best but take a good look at it .

You don't consider Manny Ortiz and Chalky Wright to be great? Plus don't forget all the top notch competitors that Pep beat(Phil Terranova for example). There was a time when Pep's record was something like 135-1.

Expug · Post by **Expug** » 04 Apr 2006, 00:23

Damn good but I dont know about great. Willies record was great I know but Im looking for that win over a true all time great that justifies his often being ranked as one of the top 5 or even 10 p4p in history.

Expug · Post by **Expug** » 04 Apr 2006, 00:26

Manny did alot of work at Bantamweight also.

BrocktonBlockbuster49 · Post by **BrocktonBlockbuster49** » 04 Apr 2006, 02:04

expug wrote:Brock, you have always made outstanding arguments to back up your points. Thats why its always good to hear your point of view. The thing about fighters is in order to be considered great, they need a defining fight against another great fighter to be considered great. I know it goes against what almost all boxing historians say , but I dont have Pep as one of the greatest fighters in history. Mainly because out of his million wins there is no victory over a great fighter OTHER than Saddler , and we know how that series went. Im not saying Willie wasnt tremendous , but history has been real kind to him especialy in light of a couple peculiar fights that were thought to be tank jobs by many. Lulu Perez and Tommy Collins. His record is one of Boxing histories best but take a good look at it .

but saddler is one of the greatest featherweights of all time. the fact pep beat him and beat him easy in one of the fights is a truelly phenominal feat. sandy saddler IMO is the 3rd greatest featherweight of all time. the fact a post prime pep beat saddler is amazing.

pep beat more than just sandy saddler. he beat HOF top 20 featherweight of all time champion chalky wright, who was a great fighter. pep did so 3 times. pep also beat HOF all time great bantamweight manuel ortiz whos a great fighter. how bout all the solid very good fighters pep beat like NBA featherweight champ phil terranova, future world lightweight champion paddy demarco, jock leslie, NBA featherweight champ sal bartoloa, humberto sierra, etc.

- even practically shot, in a non title fight he was well ahead on points vs featherweight champ hogan kid bassey before getting knocked out. goes to show u how good pep was cause bassey was a very good fighter.

-salvador sanchez never beat anyone as good as sandy saddler. henry armstrong never beat anyone as good as sandy saddler.

- remember it wasnt like saddler knocked out pep 3 times, pep quit on his stool in the 3rd and 4th fights. the first 3 fights tell the tale for me, and saddler knocked pep out proving how great saddler was, then pep outboxed pep in one of the greatest fights of all time(sadly isnt on film), and finally pep was ahead on points before dislocating his shoulder and quitting. so pep was on his way to winning 2 of the 3 fights but got sidestepped. however, my main point is in there series, pep was not in his prime, this was the post plain crash pep.

you really gotta see pep on film. he looks absolutley incredible, like hes floating in air. i even have film of pep in 1945 pre plain crash at peps peak vs ralph walton.

-he probably threw the lulu perez and tommy collins fights, but regardless he was well past his prime. but he most likely took dives in these fights,

what featherweight in history could beat a prime willie pep

what featherweight in history could beat a prime willie pep

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