Ken Norton?

[NYDominican]

Had a prime Ken Norton fought a prime Joe Frazier, what advantages would Ken have over Joe?


What advantages would Frazier have over Norton?


What do you see happening in this fight?



Who would win? Why?




Please explain.

[tagjohnson]

I can't see this as anything but a crushing win by Frazier. Could Norton handle Frazier's punching power? No. Could he get away from Frazier? No. Could he hurt/KO/or back up Frazier? No. Ken Norton (who I really liked BTW) fought three big punchers and got creamed by all three of them. Frazier was not the puncher that Foreman/Shavers/or Cooney were but was darned close and threw a lot more. If anyone disagrees with me, explain how Ken defeats Joe.

[Caractacus]

I remember reading in Ken Norton's autobiography,the first time he sparred with Joe Frazier in 1970,
he got clipped by a left hook and his whole body went numb.
but he said he went into the sparring session unprepared
and had been partying and drinking some the night before,
but after that he took the sparring seriously.

[Kalan]

Ken Norton was a trip and a half.. He tried in vain to have a great personality and be a major sports celebrity – and generally fell on his face.

He thought he was beautiful. He came off as being vain, arrogant, and egotistic.. People would accuse him of being a silly kid. But he was too big and strong for Frazier and there came a time when Kenny could beat Joe up.. Norton wanted the fight.. Smokin’ Joe didn't want Norton because he knew he'd get cleaned up.. and if Joe wanted to get cleaned up again he could let Foreman do it again for more money.

Norton and Foreman were interviewed separately on the same TV show by Howard Cosell.. Norton wore a lot of jewelry around his neck and it got tangled up in his mike.. He looked like an idiot fumbling with it and Howard said, "No Kenny, let me help you with that. You've got this all tangled up Kenny. What have you done here???” Anybody else would have joked about it, but Norton sat there fretting about it and being embarrassed.

When Cosell untangled his mike Norton was asked if he’d like to fight Foreman again. Norton hedged around and said “That fight shouldn’t be necessary. I deserve the shot because I beat Ali, I think 3 times now from what everyone tells me.”

Cosell.. “Well that fight is not being offered Kenny. But would you want another shot at Foreman if the fight were offered?”

Norton.. “He doesn’t have a title and Ali has a title. I’m after the title.” Norton left.

Foreman came on in a sharp lavender suit.. Cosell.. “Would you fight Ken Norton again?”

Foreman… “I’ll fight Norton again, anytime I have 5 minutes. But does he want to fight me? No! None of these guys want to fight George Foreman.”

[Nile4000]

Had a prime Ken Norton fought a prime Joe Frazier, what advantages would Ken have over Joe?


What advantages would Frazier have over Norton?


What do you see happening in this fight?



Who would win? Why?




Please explain.

Ken's advantage is probably better trained. Joe's is that left hook. At their bests, I feel it would be a spirited battle that would last until the ninth round. Joe would win, because he would apply that pressure, and hurt Norton with that hook consistently after the sixth round, and he was a better fighter.

[Kalan]

Frazier was better against little guys he could bowl over... But Joe even had problems with Oscar Bonavena -- and Jimmy Ellis had no trouble with Bonavena.. Ellis didn't get hit as much as Frazier by Bonavena - even though Frazier ran over Ellis... Norton was too big, tall, and strong for Frazier and he could fight... Norton got knocked out a few times, but he could fight.. Norton was real strong and he could hit real good, and Smokin' Joe was there to be hit..

If Frazier couldn't head you around the ring. If he couldn't get on your chest and bully you, and push you around the ring, he was in trouble.. That's why Foreman is the LAST guy Frazier should have been in a ring with.. If Joe had the ability to box, jab, and move he'd have a prayer in that fight.

[FastestHandsInThewest]

Ken Norton has the size advantage and reach advantage. Frazier has the advantage in power. I see Frazier catching Norton due to his speed and finishing Norton by tko finish. Frazier wins because I think he's a better boxer than Ken Norton. I think Frazier's sheer strength, durability, daunting punching power, and relentless pressure fighting style would be too much for Norton. His style is gritty and Norton would drown under his constant pressure using his bobbing and weaving to close the gap and absolutely annihilate Norton.

[Chuck1052]

Unless Ken Norton was going to get a massive purse and/or a title shot, I doubt that his brain trust would have had him matched with Joe Frazier. The fact is that Norton could not cope with the big punchers in the heavyweight division, which his brain well knew. Frazier also was extreme aggressive and had a terrific work rate for a heavyweight

- Chuck Johnston

[SenorPipino]

Norton always struck me as weak in the body. When hit with a good shot to the midsection, he would take a step back and tug his trunks up. Maybe that's a reason why Ali had so much trouble with Norton. Ali was no body puncher.

Quarry rattled Norton early with a body shot and probably could have beaten him but Quarry was far out of shape for that fight.

Frazier would go to that body and Norton wouldn't like it at all. Norton never did a very good job at retreating or moving laterally. Always moved with his "foot in the bucket."

Frazier would catch him with some solid body shots and Norton would be unable to get away.

Figure Frazier put's Norton down and out with a hook downstairs around the 6th round.

[Ambling Alp II]

Never thought Frazier's chin was much better than Norton's.

It is interesting if you look at Frazier and Norton's common opponents:

Frazier
W15 vs Ali
L12 vs Ali
L Ret 14 vs Ali

W RT4 vs Stander

TKO'd 2 by Foreman

TKO 5 Quarry
RTD 7 Quarry

Norton
W12 vs Ali
L12 vs Ali
L15 vs Ali

TKO 2 by Foreman

TKO 5 vs Stander

TKO 5 Quarry

4 different common opponents of varying styles and abilities, and the results are very similar against each of the four.
I think Norton would do much better than many people think.

[Kalan]

Unless Ken Norton was going to get a massive purse and/or a title shot, I doubt that his brain trust would have had him matched with Joe Frazier. The fact is that Norton could not cope with the big punchers in the heavyweight division, which his brain well knew. Frazier also was extreme aggressive and had a terrific work rate for a heavyweight

- Chuck Johnston

Norton vs Frazier was OFTEN talked about... Norton was ALWAYS willing to fight Little Joe... Frazier was NEVER willing to fight Big Kenny because the man was too big, tall, and strong for the smaller man... Norton fought several big punchers and got stopped... Frazier fought one big puncher and got stopped just as easily... You can't say Frazier wasn't easy to hit.. Norton wasn't the puncher Foreman was, but he was powerful and had a brutal uppercut.. His superior strength would allow a peak Norton to control Frazier easily.. Norton knew all about Frazier from sparring him.. Ali had size for his day but not strength.. But Ali hurt Frazier badly, stopped him, and beat him decisively.. He hit Frazier almost non-stop in all 3 fights.

Ali never put a dent in Norton. He got his jaw broken and was battered about the ring. Any other fighter would have lost all 3 fights. Ali won on his name.

[ClivePatrickLyons]

Frazier was a beast when in his prime don't get me wrong Ken Norton was great fighter when both at their best Frazier is the better fighter Joe would smother Norton and be relentless all night long to Tko the great Norton in 11

[ClivePatrickLyons]

Unless Ken Norton was going to get a massive purse and/or a title shot, I doubt that his brain trust would have had him matched with Joe Frazier. The fact is that Norton could not cope with the big punchers in the heavyweight division, which his brain well knew. Frazier also was extreme aggressive and had a terrific work rate for a heavyweight

- Chuck Johnston

Norton vs Frazier was OFTEN talked about... Norton was ALWAYS willing to fight Little Joe... Frazier was NEVER willing to fight Big Kenny because the man was too big, tall, and strong for the smaller man... Norton fought several big punchers and got stopped... Frazier fought one big puncher and got stopped just as easily... You can't say Frazier wasn't easy to hit.. Norton wasn't the puncher Foreman was, but he was powerful and had a brutal uppercut.. His superior strength would allow a peak Norton to control Frazier easily.. Norton knew all about Frazier from sparring him.. Ali had size for his day but not strength.. But Ali hurt Frazier badly, stopped him, and beat him decisively.. He hit Frazier almost non-stop in all 3 fights.

Ali never put a dent in Norton. He got his jaw broken and was battered about the ring. Any other fighter would have lost all 3 fights. Ali won on his name.

Norton never faced a prime Ali if anyone did it was Frazier Or did they all face the past his best Ali from 1970 on

[Ambling Alp II]

Ali was not in his prime against either. However, the Ali that Norton beat was not nearly as rusty as the Ali that Frazier beat.

[elmersalsa]

Bullcrap. Smokin' Joe kicked Ali's ass!

[Kalan]

Ali wasn't rusty for Frazier... He came back at 28 against Quarry and looked better, faster, and sharper than ever... If he fought Frazier that night he would have won. He looked real good against Bonavena too -- tight as a drum and brick solid.. He got hit with big swinging hooks from Bonavena that Ellis easily evaded, but he was too big and strong for Oscar... Ali came out of the Oscar fight looking better than Frazier did vs OB... Bonavena kept saying "He beata Joe Frazier... He beata Joe Frazier"

Based on those fights I knew Ali was going to hit Frazier a ton.. He was too big and strong for Joe.. But Ali's biggest weakness was the left hook -- and that was Frazier's only real weapon. He had a terrific left hook for a man only 5'11" X 205.. Style wise Ali was the perfect opponent for Frazier, so I figured Frazier would eventually stop Ali with big left hooks.. But Joe was too small and couldn't get enough oomph on the shot.. He had Ali going in the 11th and couldn't summons the clout to finish him.. In the 15th he nailed Ali with a nice left hook and decked him hard.. I thought Frazier would go hard for the finish but he didn't even try.. He was joyous and started celebrating his win with a minute to go.. I thought, "Don't do that. You might be sorry."

I scored the fight for Ali 8 rounds to 7. Ali meted out more punishment and landed more punches. With the 10-point must system I would have given it to Frazier because he had 2 big rounds in the 11th and 15th.. The 10-point is a fairer scoring system so he really did win it.

[Kalan]

Ali was not in his prime against either. However, the Ali that Norton beat was not nearly as rusty as the Ali that Frazier beat.

Ali was in his prime.. 29 and 31 are prime-time for anybody who hasn't been trashed.. It's when youth melds with experience and acquired skills.. The difference between Ali and Mayweather -- besides defensive mastery -- is Mayweather took every opponent seriously.. Ali took Norton lightly.

[Tony1244]

On styles, i'd pick Frazier. Norton didn't like to be pressured.

[elmersalsa]

Ali wasn't rusty for Frazier... He came back at 28 against Quarry and looked better, faster, and sharper than ever... If he fought Frazier that night he would have won. He looked real good against Bonavena too -- tight as a drum and brick solid.. He got hit with big swinging hooks from Bonavena that Ellis easily evaded, but he was too big and strong for Oscar... Ali came out of the Oscar fight looking better than Frazier did vs OB... Bonavena kept saying "He beata Joe Frazier... He beata Joe Frazier"

Based on those fights I knew Ali was going to hit Frazier a ton.. He was too big and strong for Joe.. But Ali's biggest weakness was the left hook -- and that was Frazier's only real weapon. He had a terrific left hook for a man only 5'11" X 205.. Style wise Ali was the perfect opponent for Frazier, so I figured Frazier would eventually stop Ali with big left hooks.. But Joe was too small and couldn't get enough oomph on the shot.. He had Ali going in the 11th and couldn't summons the clout to finish him.. In the 15th he nailed Ali with a nice left hook and decked him hard.. I thought Frazier would go hard for the finish but he didn't even try.. He was joyous and started celebrating his win with a minute to go.. I thought, "Don't do that. You might be sorry."

I scored the fight for Ali 8 rounds to 7. Ali meted out more punishment and landed more punches. With the 10-point must system I would have given it to Frazier because he had 2 big rounds in the 11th and 15th.. The 10-point is a fairer scoring system so he really did win it.

The great Joe Frazier won outright, kalan. Let's not make it difficult. Simple as it was, Smokin' Joe kicked his ass and that's all to it.

[Kalan]

Actually, I believe if Ali was as prepared as he was for Quarry and Bonavena he would have won... Ali looked somewhat soft versus Frazier in comparison.

Maybe a little fat.

[elmersalsa]

Actually, I believe if Ali was as prepared as he was for Quarry and Bonavena he would have won... Ali looked somewhat soft versus Frazier in comparison.

Maybe a little fat.

Bullcrap. It was The Fight of the Century. The most anticipated fight of all time. The Greatest got whupped and that's all to it. Give Smokin' Joe credit for that.

[Kalan]

I don't give Smokin' any credit for the Ali fight other than he won... He took a severe shiit kicking... He ended that fight with a double-head it was so swollen.

And then for his next effort against a tough opponent he fought George Foreman... That was even more fun to watch.

[elmersalsa]

I don't give Smokin' any credit for the Ali fight other than he won... He took a severe shiit kicking... He ended that fight with a double-head it was so swollen.

And then for his next effort against a tough opponent he fought George Foreman... That was even more fun to watch.

I can see you don't like Smokin' Joe Frazier. A guy that fought his ass off against probably the greatest heavyweight champion ever in the biggest stage of all time and you don't give him no credit. I am an Ali fan and I don't look for excuses. He got whupped in FOTC and that's all to it. End of story.

[Autobarn]

They would've besten the shi t out of each other, in a long, gruelling fight. Just depends what range the fight is contested at, mid favouring Kenny and close favouring Smokin' Joe.

Frazier peaked around 1970 then gained weight and was never as good.

Norton was a supreme specimen and he did very good work in those late, long, hard fights with Ali and Holmes...

After say their defeats to Foreman I'd have to say Norton had a decent chance.

[Kalan]

Right... After they both fought Foreman Kenny would have won easily... He adjusted his diet to make him bigger and stronger after the Foreman fight.. Did more strength training to "get more oomph on my punches" as he put it.. It was Frazier's idea to match Duane Bobick with Norton -- just like it was Joe's idea to match his son Marvis, 10-0 with a peak 44-0 Larry Holmes.. Joe said, "Marvis is a truck. He's the best in the division."

Joe Frazier wasn't the same caliber of puncher that Foreman, Lyle, Shavers, and a 24-year-old Cooney were... Ali was extremely vulnerable to left hooks because of the way he leaned back from them instead of ducking them and blocking them with his right glove... Joe blew up his jaw with numerous hooks but couldn't get him out of there.. Ali was "too big" as Eddie Futch said..

Frazier didn't fight the Lyle's, Norton's, Blue Lewis's, or other big contenders except for Foreman and Ali.. I've never seen Frazier knock a good big man out.. He couldn't get Bonavena down or out. OB was 5'11" and weighed 203. Jimmy Ellis was a teeny Heavyweight, but he had Bonavena down twice.. Chuvalo was a moderately big guy, but you couldn't miss the him with a punch and he was even outboxed by Bonavena.. Foreman manhandled Chuvalo and Floyd Patterson easily out-boxed the Canadian.. Earnie Terrell beat him. He wasn't formidable.

True enough, Norton was a little stiff on the right leg...and he led with his head like Frazier.. Those bad habits caused problems whenever he faced anyone who could drive him backwards -- which Heavyweights like Ali.. Young.. Quarry.. Kirkman.. O'Halloran.. Bobick and Cobb lacked the fire-power to do.. Although Frazier had a great left hook, over scores of rounds Norton developed methods to beat Frazier's left hook.. It's not always a real good idea to fight your sparring partners, and Norton wasn't the dummy a lot of people thought he was. He was a pretty fair thinker. Norton was 100% for a fight with Frazier. Frazier wouldn't talk about it. Norton was the last guy he wanted to fight.