Ali vs Cooney (1979)

[Kalan]

No matter who he fought or when he fought, Ali was always "the bigger event."

The other guys were just boxers. Ali was an icon.

An icon who got punched in the head a lot...and solidly... A Hell of a lot more than Holmes did for for sure... Ali was a great self promoter like Robinson, who was more of an image builder and glamour guy.. Ali was a great shlt talker like McGregor... That's a good thing, but it doesn't mean you can fight.

[BoxBuzz]

I don't think the Spinks win should count towards being a 3-time Champion... Spinks didn't deserve the Title Fight in the 1st place... and Ali only became a 3-time Heavyweight champion by LOSING to Spinks and then rematching him when Holmes was the real Heavyweight Champion.

Ali was a great fighter for sure... He wasn't a great boxer... A great boxer doesn't get hit with a shower of left hooks that balloons up his jaw.. He doesn't pull straight back from punches or get hit with looping shots very often.. He doesn't move his right guard well away from his face when he jabs.. His footwork is more precise.. He's got an all-around game including a body attack and an inside game.. He doesn't resort to clinching 20 times in a round (a record for champs) like Ali did in the first round of the Foreman fight, because holding and wrestling are not actually allowed under Queensberry Rules. And he doesn't get outpointed by guys like Ken Norton and Leon Spinks.. So yes. Ali was a great fighter..

Holmes was a great boxer who fought until he was 52 with no ill effects.. He beat Ray Mercer at 42.. He had great all-around skills -- so even when Holmes had a big, fat pot belly in his 40's and 50's, his basic skills allowed him to escape hard driven hooks and right hands for the most part even then... Even Mayweather got hit ... The thing is to limit the number of times you get hit.

Sometimes your contributions are a pleasure to read. Even when I don't fully agree. Especially since your return after a brief hiatus.

But some things are just facts.....the linear title is just what it is.....you can't "judge" it out of existence. So the story holds. He's the only guy who has managed that hat trick.

Funny how out of 5 fights with the three best fighters of that era, where we see Ali is fading, and Norton and Holmes are on the rise......4 of them were very competitive. And only one was not....and that is because Ali was finally succumbing to his parkinson's symptoms in ways he could not overcome when facing Larry..

The FACT that the Norton Holmes fight was as competitive as it was tells you all you need to know about how truly remarkable Ali's abilities were right up until his final 4 fights. If Ali would have been no better than YOU give him credit for, he would not have been competitive with Norton. The same Norton that in some peoples opinion actually beat Larry....as well as Ali. Around that time these three guys were on a pretty even keel.....or Holmes would have walked over Kenny.....which he did not. In fact, you could argue that the 3 fights that Ali/Norton shared, AND the Holmes/Norton fight were very nearly "inconclusive".

[Kalan]

I don't think the Spinks win should count towards being a 3-time Champion

Of course you are entitled to your opinion, but nevertheless the history books will show that Muhammad Ali became the only 3 time linear heavyweight champion when he beat Spinks in the rematch.
A properly trained Ali gave young Leon a boxing lesson in the Superdome, the judges scoring it 11-4, 10-4-1, 10-4-1.

Larry Holmes merely became the WBC belt holder when he only just about managed to beat Norton on a split points decision. I have to admit Norton v Holmes was a great fight though.

Poor Ken Norton - the only heavyweight champion who never won a world title fight!

Ali v Spinks 2 drew a crowd of 63,350 and was shown around the world. Norton v Holmes drew a crowd of 5,600. Which was the bigger event?

Holmes was badly injured with a severely torn left biceps in the Norton fight.. He couldn't retract his jab well and had to resort to brawling.. Holmes still beat Norton by a much better margin than the score.. Those cards were ludicrous. Holmes opened by winning 4 straight rounds before his biceps---which he injured in camp---started to unravel.. The fight was no worse than even the rest of the way as Holmes often pawed with his jab and loaded rights.. Norton made the best effort of his career. I don't think he was the same after that because he lost to Ali, Foreman, and Holmes on the world stage. A downer for sure.

The second Ali-Spinks fight was much closer than the scores as well.. Spinks basically gave the fight to Ali by not making an effort.. The St. Louis cops were harassing Spinks so badly and following him all all over the place giving him tickets.. Comedians were making fun of him on TV.. Leon was one of those guys like Kelly Pavlik, Buster Douglas, and Tyson Fury who don't handle fame real well.. They seem to deliberately sabotage their success with their behavior... Maybe they don't see themselves as great and their self-image is that of a loser.. For whatever reason, I don't think Leon wanted to beat Ali again.

[Kalan]

The FACT that the Norton Holmes fight was as competitive as it was tells you all you need to know about how truly remarkable Ali's abilities were right up until his final 4 fights

See my above post.. Holmes tore his left biceps in training camp.. It was similar to the injury Sonny Liston suffered against Cassius Clay.. Doctors recommended Holmes pull out of the Norton fight, but he knew he couldn't because he'd been waiting years for a Heavyweight Title shot.. He stopped sparring and rested the arm and got therapy on it.. It held together for the first few rounds which Holmes dominated.. Then the biceps unraveled and the fight became more competitive.. As Howard Cosell said, "This fight wasn't as close as the score. Holmes took a big lead early."

I don't think it's anything that remarkable when you get hit as much as Ali did... A Hell of a lot more than an aging Holmes did.

[BoxBuzz]

Well Ali foolishly believed in his ability to absorb punishment.....he seemed to take it is a badge of honor.....and though it was impressive to many, I agree it was also foolish....the brain loses a bit with every good whack.....and he allowed it too often....Larry was smarter on that score......Larry believed in physics, and knew the stats on head injury, Ali believed in a higher power that would have his back.......I think Larry's thinking was more sound...based on the old saying "The lord helps those who help themselves". Ali may have failed to take that caveat into account.

[ClivePatrickLyons]

Ali at his worst still beats Cooney

Larry Holmes said Cooney could have been champion had he not been around. So, I don't know how you can diminish Cooney so much. Ali post 1978 was beyond shot.

[Kalan]

Well Ali foolishly believed in his ability to absorb punishment.....he seemed to take it is a badge of honor.....and though it was impressive to many, I agree it was also foolish....the brain loses a bit with every good whack.....and he allowed it too often....Larry was smarter on that score......Larry believed in physics, and knew the stats on head injury, Ali believed in a higher power that would have his back.......I think Larry's thinking was more sound...based on the old saying "The lord helps those who help themselves". Ali may have failed to take that caveat into account.

Almost nobody "foolishly" takes punches.. I've seen it about 10 times in 20,000 fights.. Mayorga let Trinidad hit him a couple times, and Winky Wright let Mosley hit him a couple times.. Robbie Peden knocked somebody out on request.. But you don't see prominent boxers do that because it's beyond stupid or foolish.. It's insane.. It's like you're having a sword fight and you open your arms wide and say "Take your best thrust."

Ali defended as well as he could. He just wan't super masterful at it. Not even real good at it.. His expertise was the psyche job.. He was the best ever at psyching people out.. But if you didn't get angry... get flustered... blow your cool... or react in any way... then he might be in trouble.. Basically it's breaking your opponent's concentration.. It works in all sports.. You shouldn't pay attention to what your opponent says unless it motivates you.

[BoxBuzz]

What your saying sounds good, and makes sense for the most part...in general , and I disagree in this specific case.

[gilgamesh]

Well Ali foolishly believed in his ability to absorb punishment.....he seemed to take it is a badge of honor.....and though it was impressive to many, I agree it was also foolish....the brain loses a bit with every good whack.....and he allowed it too often....Larry was smarter on that score......Larry believed in physics, and knew the stats on head injury, Ali believed in a higher power that would have his back.......I think Larry's thinking was more sound...based on the old saying "The lord helps those who help themselves". Ali may have failed to take that caveat into account.

Almost nobody "foolishly" takes punches.. I've seen it about 10 times in 20,000 fights.. Mayorga let Trinidad hit him a couple times, and Winky Wright let Mosley hit him a couple times.. Robbie Peden knocked somebody out on request.. But you don't see prominent boxers do that because it's beyond stupid or foolish.. It's insane.. It's like you're having a sword fight and you open your arms wide and say "Take your best thrust."

In all fairness I'd say giving some a free thrust in a Sword Fight would be far more insane than giving them a free punch in a Boxing match, but I understand your point

It's definitely beyond stupid to do, and I have no sympathy for any fighter that ever does it and gets knocked out or hurt. Even if it's a fighter I greatly admire. You do stupid sh*t like that you get what you get.

Same think goes for fighters looking to the referee to complain about fouls. NEVER look at anyone except your opponent in a Boxing match. If you got hit in the balls or something, and you turn your head toward the ref to complain and in the process get knocked on your ass...Tough sh*t. Protect yourself at all times.

[Tony1244]

Well Ali foolishly believed in his ability to absorb punishment.....he seemed to take it is a badge of honor.....and though it was impressive to many, I agree it was also foolish....the brain loses a bit with every good whack.....and he allowed it too often....Larry was smarter on that score......Larry believed in physics, and knew the stats on head injury, Ali believed in a higher power that would have his back.......I think Larry's thinking was more sound...based on the old saying "The lord helps those who help themselves". Ali may have failed to take that caveat into account.

Almost nobody "foolishly" takes punches.. I've seen it about 10 times in 20,000 fights.. Mayorga let Trinidad hit him a couple times, and Winky Wright let Mosley hit him a couple times.. Robbie Peden knocked somebody out on request.. But you don't see prominent boxers do that because it's beyond stupid or foolish.. It's insane.. It's like you're having a sword fight and you open your arms wide and say "Take your best thrust."

Ali defended as well as he could. He just wan't super masterful at it. Not even real good at it.. His expertise was the psyche job.. He was the best ever at psyching people out.. But if you didn't get angry... get flustered... blow your cool... or react in any way... then he might be in trouble.. Basically it's breaking your opponent's concentration.. It works in all sports.. You shouldn't pay attention to what your opponent says unless it motivates you.

Remember Ibar Arrington? He let fighters foolishly hit him.

[Kalan]

A good reason he never became prominent... Or close to a World Title shot... Is this the art of self defense??? The art of hitting without getting hit???

Or is it the super rare ability to take brutal free shots right on the chin??? Holmes stopped Arrington.

[BoxBuzz]

A good reason he never became prominent... Or close to a World Title shot... Is this the art of self defense??? The art of hitting without getting hit???

Or is it the super rare ability to take brutal free shots right on the chin??? Holmes stopped Arrington.

To be more fair and accurate, I don't think Ali particularly solicited head shots...certainly nothing like Mayorga stupidly did, but he recovered well when he couldn't avoid them, and often bluffed with drama as if he wasn't hurt when he likely was smarting, .....however....he did seem to solicit body shots on occasion, and did a good job of acting indifferent to them.

[Kalan]

Golden Oldie you have the IQ of a carrot.. Floyd Patterson, Ingemar Johansson, Zora Folley, Amos Johnson, Roger Rischer, Joe Erskine, and many other guys beat Henry Cooper without picking their ass up off the canvas to do it.. They weren't decked like Ali.. And NO!!!! Cooper's left hand was nothing like Robinson's or any other great fighter's.. He could throw the hook, but he wasn't slick with it.. With a record of 40-14-1 he was never successful on the world level.

[BoxBuzz]

Yeah....and no one learns on their way up, and gets to file it for future use. You're either born with everything you need, or you're a wash out.


Once Clay was hit with Enry's 'ammer and succumbed to it.....(and only manged to win after spending a night at the hotel to rest up) he proved he was a loser forever and always.

It's why he always needed an excuse, or some intrigue, or the fix, or a scam, or payola, or happenstance, pixie dust, somethin' up his sleeve, voodoo chants, ancient indian spells, tomato cans,

volunteer victims, or someone in high places pulling a fast one, to log in all his future wins in boxing.

Everyone on the east coast knows this.




And since Joshua has hit the deck....I suppose history is about to repeat itself.......another shoulda woulda who will be gifted with a string of fixes just to make boxing look like a real sport.


You may be onto something Kalan.....uh I mean You may be on something Kalan.

[Tony1244]

Golden Oldie you have the IQ of a carrot.. Floyd Patterson, Ingemar Johansson, Zora Folley, Amos Johnson, Roger Rischer, Joe Erskine, and many other guys beat Henry Cooper without picking their ass up off the canvas to do it.. They weren't decked like Ali.. And NO!!!! Cooper's left hand was nothing like Robinson's or any other great fighter's.. He could throw the hook, but he wasn't slick with it.. With a record of 40-14-1 he was never successful on the world level.

So if Cooper didn't knockdown Rischer or Erskine, but knocked down Ali, that means nothing.

Is Jerry Judge better than Ali because Wepner didn't knock him down?

[gilgamesh]

In 1979 Ali wasn't gonna be beating any Top 10-Top 15 ish Heavyweight anymore. He was finished. Cooney would've beaten him at this time.

[Kalan]

Golden Oldie you have the IQ of a carrot.. Floyd Patterson, Ingemar Johansson, Zora Folley, Amos Johnson, Roger Rischer, Joe Erskine, and many other guys beat Henry Cooper without picking their ass up off the canvas to do it.. They weren't decked like Ali.. And NO!!!! Cooper's left hand was nothing like Robinson's or any other great fighter's.. He could throw the hook, but he wasn't slick with it.. With a record of 40-14-1 he was never successful on the world level.

So if Cooper didn't knockdown Rischer or Erskine, but knocked down Ali, that means nothing.

Is Jerry Judge better than Ali because Wepner didn't knock him down?

He didn't knock Ali down.. Chuck had his foot nailed to the floor by stepping on it. It was a push down.. But that's trivial.. Floyd Patterson, Ingemar Johansson, Zora Folley, Amos Johnson, Roger Rischer, Joe Erskine etc. were all better than Cooper, but he was a very likable and fan friendly guy like Billy Walker. That helps you out if you get your ass beaten a lot and have a lot of humility about it -- which is not a usual trait for boxers to have. They usually make excuses.

Cooper's lack of size and strength put him at a severe disadvantage to most Heavyweights, but Ali was wide open for left hooks -- so if Cooper were a bigger Heavyweight it would have been a fantastic match-up for him -- like Frazier, who was 18 pounds bigger and could also hook... Amos Johnson was a little guy who had a nice short hook that was real slick... He never went anywhere, but he was supposed to get an Ali fight when he beat Cooper.. He was slavering for it.

[Tony1244]

Golden Oldie you have the IQ of a carrot.. Floyd Patterson, Ingemar Johansson, Zora Folley, Amos Johnson, Roger Rischer, Joe Erskine, and many other guys beat Henry Cooper without picking their ass up off the canvas to do it.. They weren't decked like Ali.. And NO!!!! Cooper's left hand was nothing like Robinson's or any other great fighter's.. He could throw the hook, but he wasn't slick with it.. With a record of 40-14-1 he was never successful on the world level.

So if Cooper didn't knockdown Rischer or Erskine, but knocked down Ali, that means nothing.

Is Jerry Judge better than Ali because Wepner didn't knock him down?

He didn't knock Ali down.. Chuck had his foot nailed to the floor by stepping on it. It was a push down.. But that's trivial.. Floyd Patterson, Ingemar Johansson, Zora Folley, Amos Johnson, Roger Rischer, Joe Erskine etc. were all better than Cooper, but he was a very likable and fan friendly guy like Billy Walker. That helps you out if you get your ass beaten a lot and have a lot of humility about it -- which is not a usual trait for boxers to have. They usually make excuses.

Cooper's lack of size and strength put him at a severe disadvantage to most Heavyweights, but Ali was wide open for left hooks -- so if Cooper were a bigger Heavyweight it would have been a fantastic match-up for him -- like Frazier, who was 18 pounds bigger and could also hook... Amos Johnson was a little guy who had a nice short hook that was real slick... He never went anywhere, but he was supposed to get an Ali fight when he beat Cooper.. He was slavering for it.

Agree, of course, that Cooper wasn't an all time great or anything and his humility and intelligence got him the "Sir" title I believe. But I think the 4th round knockdown in the first fight just goes to show you that if someone with a decent punch lands cleanly he can knock someone down who is much better than he is. Speaking of which, Wepner's 9th round knockdown of Ali was scored as such. Ali showed a picture of Wepner stepping on his foot, whether that caused the knockdown or was photographed in another round, I do not know.

[Kalan]

Clearly a pushdown... Wepner's power was 2nd rate -- as were his conditioning, defense, and overall skills.

[Tony1244]

Clearly a pushdown... Wepner's power was 2nd rate -- as were his conditioning, defense, and overall skills.

He didn't push him. Wepner was only a fair puncher at best. Perhaps Ali was off balance. It was a legitimate knockdown IF Chuck wasn't stepping on his foot. The replays I've seen don't show feet.

[BoxBuzz]

He did step on his foot....but the ref did not see it.....so it's in the record books.......the refs and all their foibles are at the end of the day....just another part of the sport.

[Kalan]

Just another part of the business.

[Tony1244]

I don't think Kalan and golden oldie like each other.

[BoxBuzz]

chewin on a piece of straw, tossin' around sports observations on the front porch of a colonial home with a view of the ocean......

the see breeze calms the soul, and a good give and take about a favorite sport sharpens the mind

as always we're serving up a choice between mint julips and a good pilsner......life doesn't get better than this.

remember you are in a civil conversation about the sweet science and embrace courtesy and respect.

Let's have no further need to be tossin' coins in the cuss jar.

[BoxBuzz]

Let's just each keep our own rigs between the lines, shiny side up, and trust the other drivers do the same.