Let's compare Joshua (20 fights) to Wladimir (20 fights)

[IronFrost]

Joshua is already big star and sells tickets like a machine.

Who was Wladimir at this stage? Who has he fought?

Wladimir fought Ross Purrity in his 25th fight!! And he lost by TKO. Ross Purrity lost even against Michael Grant (who was considered as the biggest hypejob and Lennox sparked him out easy"


Wladimir's first ranked opponent was Chris Byrd (36th fight) - Seems like Wladamir was even bigger fraud and cherry picker than Deontay Wilder.

Deontay Wilder at this stage is already in top 3 and holds one of the main belts!

Wladimir needed 9 years and rich amateur careeer for being dominant.

He started fight somebody around his 48th- 50th professional fights!

As you can see. Wladimir was even bigger joke than Deontay Wilder.

Idk if i should compare him with Joshua. Joshua is already bigger draw and star than Wladimir ever WAS and he would KO everyone on Wladimir's list with much more fashion.


TEAM JOSHUA FOLKS

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SprXOvUKXns

[man]

Joshua is already big star and sells tickets like a machine.

Who was Wladimir at this stage? Who has he fought?

Wladimir fought Ross Purrity in his 25th fight!! And he lost by TKO. Ross Purrity lost even against Michael Grant (who was considered as the biggest hypejob and Lennox sparked him out easy"


Wladimir's first ranked opponent was Chris Byrd (36th fight) - Seems like Wladamir was even bigger fraud and cherry picker than Deontay Wilder.

Deontay Wilder at this stage is already in top 3 and holds one of the main belts!

Wladimir needed 9 years and rich amateur careeer for being dominant.

He started fight somebody around his 48th- 50th professional fights!

As you can see. Wladimir was even bigger joke than Deontay Wilder.

Idk if i should compare him with Joshua. Joshua is already bigger draw and star than Wladimir ever WAS and he would KO everyone on Wladimir's list with much more fashion.


TEAM JOSHUA FOLKS

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SprXOvUKXns

that is utterly stupid revision of history.

[gilgamesh]

Doesn't really matter if Joshua is "ahead" of Wlad after 20 fights. He's got a long way to go before he matches the overall career of Wlad. Having a head to head win over him will help his claim though when it's all said and done.

[dagilechia]

Joshua is already big star and sells tickets like a machine.

Who was Wladimir at this stage? Who has he fought?

Wladimir fought Ross Purrity in his 25th fight!! And he lost by TKO. Ross Purrity lost even against Michael Grant (who was considered as the biggest hypejob and Lennox sparked him out easy"


Wladimir's first ranked opponent was Chris Byrd (36th fight) - Seems like Wladamir was even bigger fraud and cherry picker than Deontay Wilder.

Deontay Wilder at this stage is already in top 3 and holds one of the main belts!

Wladimir needed 9 years and rich amateur careeer for being dominant.

He started fight somebody around his 48th- 50th professional fights!

As you can see. Wladimir was even bigger joke than Deontay Wilder.

Idk if i should compare him with Joshua. Joshua is already bigger draw and star than Wladimir ever WAS and he would KO everyone on Wladimir's list with much more fashion.


TEAM JOSHUA FOLKS

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SprXOvUKXns

but Wlad at the time of his 36th fight was 24 years old, did not held any title.
Wilder has 38 fights, he is 32 now, he is a ''champ'' and he says that he is ''the most feared since Mike Tyson''
you don't see any difference?

[Lackeos]

That is a stupid way to compare fighters. Anthony Joshua is about to turn 28. At the same age, Wladimir Klitschko was 42-2. That is a more accurate way to compare them, because the amount of years that they had been boxing is close to equal, they were equally close to reaching their primes, and equally close to the age that their primes will end. Comparing 28-year-old Joshua to 24-year-old Wladimir is asinine. By this same method, you might try to compare Guillermo Rigondeaux, a 37-year-old with 17 pro fights, to the 19-year-old version of Manny Pacquiao, who also had 17 pro fights. This is nowhere near an apples-to-apples comparison. You can have a kid with no amateur background who turns pro at age 15, and fights 17 pro fights before he even turns 16, and you compare that kid to Guillermo Rigondeaux and act like it's an apples-to-apples comparison.

Quantity of pro fights is never the correct way to gauge a fighter's boxing experience. That would just punish a fighter who chose to turn pro early and fight with a high degree of activity. It would reward sandbaggers who spend over a decade in the amateur system, turn pro after they're already in the middle of their prime, and fight once a year. It would lead to making the mistake of comparing a fighter who is 12 years shy of his prime to another fighter who is right in the middle of his prime.

Comparing fighters based on years since pro debut is an equally flawed way to compare. Some fighters turn pro at age 15 and intend to learn on the job for 14 years before they reach their primes. Some fighters turn pro at age 31 after they've won multiple amateur gold medals are are a couple years into their prime already. It is not apples-to-apples to compare an immature 15-year-old to an extraordinarily seasoned 31-year-old. This, too, would lead to making the mistake of comparing a fighter who is 12 years shy of his prime to another fighter who is right in the middle of his prime.

Compare fighters based on their ages. Whether you turn pro early or late is just your choice of the path you're taking to get where you're going. Whether you fight a little or a lot is just your choice of the path you take to get where you're going. But most fighters hit their peaks at around age 28-30 and fully exit their prime at around their 36th birthday. So if you're going to compare two fighters, compare them at the same points in their development, i.e. compare them at their primes, or if you don't have that luxury (because one of the fighters is 1 year shy of reaching his prime), then compare them at points where they are equally shy of reaching their primes (i.e. their prime minus 1 year). This is a valid approach to making an apples-to-apples comparison between two fighters.

Also, I should point out that most fighters don't significantly improve between age 28 and age 30. But Wladimir Klitschko is a special example who transformed from vulnerable to extraordinarily invincible between the time that he was 28 and the time that he was 30. So it is particularly risky to say "If Wlad improved this much between age 28 and 30, then Joshua will improve this much between age 28 and 30. Therefore, imagine how great Joshua will be at age 30." Drawing that sort of conclusion is making the mistake of assuming that a specific fighter will improve as much as the most exceptional extreme. That's similar to saying "Mike Tyson started declining after age 21, so I will assume that any given fighter also declines starting at age 21." It's similar to saying "Bernard Hopkins was world class until age 49, so I will assume that any given fighter will also be world class until age 49." You can't take the most extreme example and assume that any given fighter will also be the same.

Lastly, I should just say that if you don't already know this by now, then your understanding of the sport of boxing is very poor (which, I generally consider IronFrost to be a troll who seldom makes a quality post, so there you go).

[IronFrost]

That is a stupid way to compare fighters. Anthony Joshua is about to turn 28. At the same age, Wladimir Klitschko was 42-2. That is a more accurate way to compare them, because the amount of years that they had been boxing is close to equal, they were equally close to reaching their primes, and equally close to the age that their primes will end. Comparing 28-year-old Joshua to 24-year-old Wladimir is asinine. By this same method, you might try to compare Guillermo Rigondeaux, a 37-year-old with 17 pro fights, to the 19-year-old version of Manny Pacquiao, who also had 17 pro fights. This is nowhere near an apples-to-apples comparison. You can have a kid with no amateur background who turns pro at age 15, and fights 17 pro fights before he even turns 16, and you compare that kid to Guillermo Rigondeaux and act like it's an apples-to-apples comparison.

Quantity of pro fights is never the correct way to gauge a fighter's boxing experience. That would just punish a fighter who chose to turn pro early and fight with a high degree of activity. It would reward sandbaggers who spend over a decade in the amateur system, turn pro after they're already in the middle of their prime, and fight once a year.

Comparing fighters based on years since pro debut is an equally flawed way to compare. Some fighters turn pro at age 15 and intend to learn on the job for 14 years before they reach their primes. Some fighters turn pro at age 31 after they've won multiple amateur gold medals are are a couple years into their prime already. It is not apples-to-apples to compare an immature 15-year-old to an extraordinarily seasoned 31-year-old.

Compare fighters based on their ages. Whether you turn pro early or late is just your choice of the path you're taking to get where you're going. Whether you fight a little or a lot is just your choice of the path you take to get where you're going. But most fighters hit their peaks at around age 28-30 and fully exit their prime at around their 36th birthday. So if you're going to compare two fighters, compare them at the same points in their development, i.e. compare them at their primes, or if you don't have that luxury (because one of the fighters is 1 year shy of reaching his prime), then compare them at points where they are equally shy of reaching their primes (i.e. their prime minus 1 year). This is a valid approach to making an apples-to-apples comparison between two fighters.

Lastly, I should just say that if you don't already know this by now, then your understanding of the sport of boxing is very poor (which, I generally consider IronFrost to be a troll who seldom makes a quality post, so there you go).

Lol than you can compare how long was AJ in amateurs or when he started boxing :))))) Kabooom

[funso banjo baby]

Wilder has a nothing bauble

plus, how can you compare two very different eras?

we learn nothing

[Lackeos]

Wladimir's first ranked opponent was Chris Byrd (36th fight) - Seems like Wladamir was even bigger fraud and cherry picker than Deontay Wilder.

Deontay Wilder at this stage is already in top 3 and holds one of the main belts!

Here you claimed that when Wilder was at the same stage as 24 year, 7 month old Wladimir, he was in the top 3. But when Wilder was at that stage, i.e. 24 years, 7 months, he was ranked approximately #140 on boxrec.

So...

[Best Coast]

Comparing 2 fighters at the 20-bout mark doesnt really count for much!

Nonetheless, I firmly believe that Anthony Joshua will go on to easily surpass Wlad's spotted legacy. Of Wlad's 5 losses he only avenged one of them: The embarrassing loss to Brewster. His humiliating KO losses to 3 second & third-tier fighters like Puritty, Sanders and Brewster cannot be blotted out from his legacy...it is what it is.

If Wlad didnt hook up with Manny Steward and change his style to make up for his horrendous chin deficiencies he would have had a lot more than 5 losses. Joshua clearly has flaws he needs to work through but getting off the canvas after Wlad dropped him shows that his chin is much better than Wlad's was.

I'm not a big AJ fan but I honestly think he's got a good shot to retire undefeated and clearly supplant Wlad Klitschko as the preeminent HW of the New Millennium (so far). I see Joshua easily beating Wilder, Fury, Parker, Browne or any of the rising prospects of the future (Hrgovic, Yoka, Usyk, etc).

[gilgamesh]

Comparing 2 fighters at the 20-bout mark doesnt really count for much!

Nonetheless, I firmly believe that Anthony Joshua will go on to easily surpass Wlad's spotted legacy. Of Wlad's 5 losses he only avenged one of them: The embarrassing loss to Brewster. His humiliating KO losses to 3 second & third-tier fighters like Puritty, Sanders and Brewster cannot be blotted out from his legacy...it is what it is.

If Wlad didnt hook up with Manny Steward and change his style to make up for his horrendous chin deficiencies he would have had a lot more than 5 losses. Joshua clearly has flaws he needs to work through but getting off the canvas after Wlad dropped him shows that his chin is much better than Wlad's was.

I'm not a big AJ fan but I honestly think he's got a good shot to retire undefeated and clearly supplant Wlad Klitschko as the preeminent HW of the New Millennium (so far). I see Joshua easily beating Wilder, Fury, Parker, Browne or any of the rising prospects of the future (Hrgovic, Yoka, Usyk, etc).

It'd still take quite a bit for Joshua to surpass Wlad's legacy. He'd need to wipe out Wilder, and the rest of the higher ranked Heavyweight contenders out there before it's even a conversation, and honestly after Wilder the ranks are pretty thin in terms of resume, but then again that's the case for Wlad too. So it's really just a question of if he can get by Wilder, and then stay motivated enough to have a lengthy reign against sub-par opposition.

You'll have some Elite young blood coming into the mix in a few years though...or at the very least new names. There's always new names. Whether or not they prove to be Elite or not only time can tell.

[Kalan]

Joshua is already big star and sells tickets like a machine.

Who was Wladimir at this stage? Who has he fought?

Wladimir fought Ross Purrity in his 25th fight!! And he lost by TKO. Ross Purrity lost even against Michael Grant (who was considered as the biggest hypejob and Lennox sparked him out easy"


Wladimir's first ranked opponent was Chris Byrd (36th fight) - Seems like Wladamir was even bigger fraud and cherry picker than Deontay Wilder.

Deontay Wilder at this stage is already in top 3 and holds one of the main belts!

Wladimir needed 9 years and rich amateur careeer for being dominant.

He started fight somebody around his 48th- 50th professional fights!

As you can see. Wladimir was even bigger joke than Deontay Wilder.

Idk if i should compare him with Joshua. Joshua is already bigger draw and star than Wladimir ever WAS and he would KO everyone on Wladimir's list with much more fashion.


TEAM JOSHUA FOLKS

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SprXOvUKXns

Joshua had the advantage of better coaching and training early in his career over Wladimir... Not that he's necessarily a better athlete than Wladimir, but he's a very great athlete who won SuperStars.. Joe Frazier finished last in that event -- as did Ken Norton.. AJ is better set up for Boxing than Wlad because he's a natural fighter.. Wladimir has really good athletic ability and a great body, but he's not a natural fighter like his brother.. He lacked the chin his brother and father.. But Wlad had great dedication and is a very good and methodical planner..

Vitali begged him to quit after he got knocked out for the 3rd time.. Wlad said "Screw you. I'm going to dominate this sport." He went looking for a better coach and Steward was his man. I Believe Wladimir holds the all time record for Heavyweight Championship Fights fought. Slow start but strong finish.

Floyd Mayweather said, "It's not how you start your career. Every good prospect has a fast start. Mike Tyson was Undefeated Heavyweight Champion at 20 so the world was open to him. But it's really how you finish. Are you still hitting that road at 35 and 38 years old. Are you still hitting that gym and training hard? Are you getting your ass beat? Are you getting beaten up? And when you have that Pink Cadillac and million dollar house, and all the women want you, are you still willing to punish your body when you don't have to? When you could take life easy and loaf around because you're damned rich. Can you resist temptations of all kinds? Because when it's all said and done consistency and longevity rule the day because many fall to temptation and fall by the wayside."

So Anthony Joshua may be the best Heavyweight in the History of Boxing.. In my judgement his is -- but there's many years left in his career.. There's many a temptation and pleasures galore everywhere you look.. For a young man who's rich and set for life it's not going to be easy to have a career that surpasses Wladimir Klitschko's.. Wlad's goal was to surpass every Heavyweight who ever took to the ring in the History of Boxing. Joshua's goals aren't as modest. For one thing, AJ has gone on record saying he wants to be Boxing's first Billionaire who's still actively fighting.

[Best Coast]

Comparing 2 fighters at the 20-bout mark doesnt really count for much!

Nonetheless, I firmly believe that Anthony Joshua will go on to easily surpass Wlad's spotted legacy. Of Wlad's 5 losses he only avenged one of them: The embarrassing loss to Brewster. His humiliating KO losses to 3 second & third-tier fighters like Puritty, Sanders and Brewster cannot be blotted out from his legacy...it is what it is.

If Wlad didnt hook up with Manny Steward and change his style to make up for his horrendous chin deficiencies he would have had a lot more than 5 losses. Joshua clearly has flaws he needs to work through but getting off the canvas after Wlad dropped him shows that his chin is much better than Wlad's was.

I'm not a big AJ fan but I honestly think he's got a good shot to retire undefeated and clearly supplant Wlad Klitschko as the preeminent HW of the New Millennium (so far). I see Joshua easily beating Wilder, Fury, Parker, Browne or any of the rising prospects of the future (Hrgovic, Yoka, Usyk, etc).

It'd still take quite a bit for Joshua to surpass Wlad's legacy. He'd need to wipe out Wilder, and the rest of the higher ranked Heavyweight contenders out there before it's even a conversation, and honestly after Wilder the ranks are pretty thin in terms of resume, but then again that's the case for Wlad too. So it's really just a question of if he can get by Wilder, and then stay motivated enough to have a lengthy reign against sub-par opposition.

You'll have some Elite young blood coming into the mix in a few years though...or at the very least new names. There's always new names. Whether or not they prove to be Elite or not only time can tell.

Somebody could emerge but AJ has a combination of size and athleticism that will be hard to match.

Wlad's 5 toughest victims were:

* Povetkin
* Chagaev
* Peter (1st time)
* Byrd (1st time)
* Pulev (or maybe Haye)

Not a particularly impressive list compared to the fighters he didnt face: Lennox, Holyfield, Bowe, Moorer, Ibeabuchi, Tua, etc. Please dont try to claim those guys were from a "different era" because when Wlad should have been fighting them (2000-2004), he was WASTING TIME with the likes of Brewster, Sanders, "Bigfoot" Martin, Schulz, Charlie Shufford, badly faded Mercer at age 41, etc.

BOTTOM LINE: The humiliating KO losses to Puritty, Sanders, Brewster not only loom large on Wlad's spotted legacy. MORE SIGNIFICANTLY they set back his progress so badly that he never fought the guys he needed to boost his legacy.

If Wlad had beaten even 3 of the 5 that I mention (Lennox, Holyfield, Bowe, Moorer, Ibeabuchi, Tua) we would not be having this debate because would be an all-time great, but because his China Chin days (1998-2004) prevented him from facing those guys his legacy is badly spotted. That's 6 YEARS that Wlad was fighting far below his potential because his glass jaw BETRAYED HIM.

Imagine if Wlad hadnt been humiliated by Puritty what a compelling bout he could have had with Ike Ibeabuchi (20-0) when Wlad would have been 30-0!!

[gilgamesh]

Anytime after 2000 I'd have taken Wlad to beat Holyfield.

Ibeabuchi wasn't around to fight for most of Wlad's career due to the whole Rape thing.

Wlad vs Lennox certainly could've happened, and Lennox would've knocked Wlad out.

Wladimir vs Tua would've been interesting in 2002-2004. Hard to say what would've happened there, though I'd favor Wlad. I could certainly see Tua getting to him late though.

Moorer never really had much cache left to his name during Wlad's run, and if they'd fought Wlad would've smoked him easy.

[Best Coast]

Anytime after 2000 I'd have taken Wlad to beat Holyfield.

Ibeabuchi wasn't around to fight for most of Wlad's career due to the whole Rape thing.

Wlad vs Lennox certainly could've happened, and Lennox would've knocked Wlad out.

Wladimir vs Tua would've been interesting in 2002-2004. Hard to say what would've happened there, though I'd favor Wlad. I could certainly see Tua getting to him late though.

Moorer never really had much cache left to his name during Wlad's run, and if they'd fought Wlad would've smoked him easy.

I added 2 things to that post after you responded: Add Bowe to the list of 5 and imagine if Wlad hadnt been humiliated by Puritty what a compelling bout he could have had in 1999 with Ike Ibeabuchi (20-0) when Wlad would have been 30-0!!

Ibeabuchi's win over Byrd was 3/99 when Wlad was 27-0 and the rape news didnt break til late 1999/early 2000. Wlad SHOULD have been fighting those guys instead of scrubs that were needed to repair his confidence due to the embarrassing KOs.

Wlad may well have beaten Holyfield & Moorer (depending on which version showed up) but it would have super-charged his resume and his confidence (which was shattered even MORE than his china chin).

[joe strong]

Joshua is already big star and sells tickets like a machine.

Who was Wladimir at this stage? Who has he fought?

Wladimir fought Ross Purrity in his 25th fight!! And he lost by TKO. Ross Purrity lost even against Michael Grant (who was considered as the biggest hypejob and Lennox sparked him out easy"


Wladimir's first ranked opponent was Chris Byrd (36th fight) - Seems like Wladamir was even bigger fraud and cherry picker than Deontay Wilder.

Deontay Wilder at this stage is already in top 3 and holds one of the main belts!

Wladimir needed 9 years and rich amateur careeer for being dominant.

He started fight somebody around his 48th- 50th professional fights!

As you can see. Wladimir was even bigger joke than Deontay Wilder.

Idk if i should compare him with Joshua. Joshua is already bigger draw and star than Wladimir ever WAS and he would KO everyone on Wladimir's list with much more fashion.


TEAM JOSHUA FOLKS

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SprXOvUKXns

actually Michael Grant wasn't a hype job. They brought him along properly stepping up his competition along the way. He won a final eliminator against Golota & got crushed by the best HW since Ali. He broke his ankle his next fight & by the time he returned he had fought 1 round in 3 years. He never recaptured the fire after the big 5 million payday.

[Kalan]

Michael Grant wasn't a hype job, but he was almost as slow and inept as Golota... But Grant never had a chance versus Lewis and neither did Golota...

They both would have had excellent chances to beat the very hittable, and none too bright, Riddick Bowe... But Golota couldn't resist that wide open target between Bowe's legs... He kept thinking the thing needed further pounding on, even after he was warned to stop laying them in there.

[Ilya Muromets]

At the beginning of his career Wladimir was fighting once every few weeks. His first twenty fights were done in only a little more than a year and a half.

[Best Coast]

At the beginning of his career Wladimir was fighting once every few weeks. His first twenty fights were done in only a little more than a year and a half.

Wlad was making phenomenal progress in his first 2 years until he got exposed in late 1998 by Puritty. If that hadnt happened Wlad could have had sensational battles in 1999 with guys like Ibeabuchi (who was still active then) or Tua, and instead of wasting his time with 2nd-tier opponents from 2000-2004 he could have spent those years facing future HOFers like Lennox, Bowe, Holyfield, Tyson, etc. and would have clearly had a legit shot at All-Time Great status. Having 4 HOFers like that on your resume stands in stark contrast to his "career-defining" wins now: Povetkin, Chagaev, Peter, Byrd, Haye, Pulev > Not a single one of Wlad's 64 wins came against anyone with even a REMOTE shot at ever making the Hall of Fame!!

Because Wlad's chin betrayed him, his confidence was destroyed and it slowed his development drastically. You could easily call the 6-year period from 1998-2004 "Wlad's Lost Years" because it left a gaping void in his legacy and affected his performance even several years beyond that.

[Boxing Writer]

Let's compare Mayweather's first 10 fights to Lomachenko's. Did you get my analogy?

[Boxing Writer]

At the beginning of his career Wladimir was fighting once every few weeks. His first twenty fights were done in only a little more than a year and a half.

Wlad was making phenomenal progress in his first 2 years until he got exposed in late 1998 by Puritty. If that hadnt happened Wlad could have had sensational battles in 1999 with guys like Ibeabuchi (who was still active then) or Tua, and instead of wasting his time with 2nd-tier opponents from 2000-2004 he could have spent those years facing future HOFers like Lennox, Bowe, Holyfield, Tyson, etc. and would have clearly had a legit shot at All-Time Great status. Having 4 HOFers like that on your resume stands in stark contrast to his "career-defining" wins now: Povetkin, Chagaev, Peter, Byrd, Haye, Pulev > Not a single one of Wlad's 64 wins came against anyone with even a REMOTE shot at ever making the Hall of Fame!!

Because Wlad's chin betrayed him, his confidence was destroyed and it slowed his development drastically. You could easily call the 6-year period from 1998-2004 "Wlad's Lost Years" because it left a gaping void in his legacy and affected his performance even several years beyond that.

Wlad's 'second-tier opponent' Chris Byrd easily schooled David Tua, who was in much better shape than he was in Lewis fight

[Ossyrules]

There's no doubt Joshua has got to the top pretty quick, but to compared fighters age for age or on numbers of fights is pretty meaningless. It's all relevant to the individual

[FastestHandsInThewest]

I wouldn't call them jokes they're still respectable heavyweights.

[greg]

..some very good posts above, I would just reiterate that it's next to impossible to find the common denominator to objectively compare the first 20 fights..what I believe should also be mentioned is that Ukraine/Kasachstan and all these other places Wlad was raised were not exactly renowned for their boxing traditions, so he had to move to Germany and basically start from scratch...I believe that was not exactly the situation Joshua had to face at the beginning of his professional career...

[BitPlayer]

It's not a fair comparison, Wlad was 22.

There careers are very different you really can't compare them.

An extreme example is Jack Johnson, undoubtedly one of the greats, but by around fight 20 his record looks like that of a journeyman

[Heretic]

Let's compare Mayweather's first 10 fights to Lomachenko's. Did you get my analogy?

Damn you beat me to the punch here. Punch line that is

I was going to make the comparison between Joshua and Lomachenko