5 Star Rating of Past Champions

HomicideHenry · Post by **HomicideHenry** » 06 Apr 2006, 19:11

I am gonna rank champions by a 5 STAR rating. Their opponents in their championship reign will also be ranked in this order. The opponents will not be measured soley by how they did against the champion(s) they faced, but their over-all credibility and record.

For example I will do Joe Louis:

Jersey Joe Walcott- 4 stars
Tami Mauriello- 2 stars
Billy Conn- 5 stars
Abe Simon- 2 1/2 stars
Buddy Baer- 2 1/2 stars
Lou Nova- 3 stars
Tony Musto- 2 1/2 stars
Gus Dorazio- 2 stars
Red Burman- 2 1/2 stars
Al McCoy- 3 stars
Arturo Godoy- 3 stars
Johnny Paycheck- 2 stars
Bob Pastor- 3 stars
Jack Roper- 3 stars
John Henry Lewis- 3 stars
Max Schmeling- 4 1/2 stars
Harry Thomas- 2 1/2 stars
Nathan Mann- 3 stars
Tommy Farr- 4 stars
Tony Galento- 3 stars

Then of course you could throw in that the Brown Bomber faced a few other world champions (past/present/future) so here is others added:

Primo Carnera- 4 stars
Jack Sharkey- 4 1/2 stars
Jimmy Braddock- 4 1/2 stars
Max Baer- 4 stars
Ezzard Charles- 5 stars
Rocky Marciano- 5 stars

over all Joe Louis has a solid 5 star rating, not just because he fought alot of hall of famers and great fighters---but because he won all but 3 of his fights in an easy manner (with exception of the first Walcott fight and for first 12 rounds of the first Conn fight).

With the 5 star rating it means Louis, in his prime, could have defeaten most Heavyweights of any era if not all.

HomicideHenry · Post by **HomicideHenry** » 07 Apr 2006, 00:53

I don't think giving Carnera 4 stars is a bad choice. I wouldnt give him no more than that, maybe 3 1/2 stars but anything less would not be fair.

Carnera beat alot of guys in the division that most couldn't or had one hell of a time with, for example here is a small laundry list of Carnera's greatest opponents whom he did beat:

1.) Tommy Laughran- Arguable one of the top Light Heavies ever
2.) Earnie Schaaf
3.) Paolino Uzcudon
4.) Jack Sharkey (is arguable was a fix; but to me it looked like lucky punch)
5.) King Levinsky- Call him a bum, but he faced everybody and beat alot of em
6.) Art Lasky
7.) George Godfrey
8.) Ed Bearcat Wright
9.) Young Stribling

He also beaten such men as Meyers KO Christner and Knute Hansen who at one time were in Heavyweight Title elimination tournaments, as well as many other men who were decent and good contenders, and of course many stumble bums along the way.

Not any Heavyweights in recent years can say that they faced virtually every good contender in their time, but Carnera can.

BrocktonBlockbuster49 · Post by **BrocktonBlockbuster49** » 07 Apr 2006, 01:00

walcott should be a 5 star

-how could u have bradock was 4 1/2 and walcott a 4, are u nuts?

BrocktonBlockbuster49 · Post by **BrocktonBlockbuster49** » 07 Apr 2006, 01:01

IrishRufusMurphy wrote:I don't think giving Carnera 4 stars is a bad choice. I wouldnt give him no more than that, maybe 3 1/2 stars but anything less would not be fair.

Carnera beat alot of guys in the division that most couldn't or had one hell of a time with, for example here is a small laundry list of Carnera's greatest opponents whom he did beat:

1.) Tommy Laughran- Arguable one of the top Light Heavies ever
2.) Earnie Schaaf
3.) Paolino Uzcudon
4.) Jack Sharkey (is arguable was a fix; but to me it looked like lucky punch)
5.) King Levinsky- Call him a bum, but he faced everybody and beat alot of em
6.) Art Lasky
7.) George Godfrey
8.) Ed Bearcat Wright
9.) Young Stribling

He also beaten such men as Meyers KO Christner and Knute Hansen who at one time were in Heavyweight Title elimination tournaments, as well as many other men who were decent and good contenders, and of course many stumble bums along the way.

Not any Heavyweights in recent years can say that they faced virtually every good contender in their time, but Carnera can.

please, george godfrey purposely lost the carnera fight. he hit him low intentionally but he was dominating carnera before the low blow. godfrey is vastly underated, i rate him # 30 greatest heavyweight of all time. hes the best heavyweight on that list.

HomicideHenry · Post by **HomicideHenry** » 07 Apr 2006, 01:27

I rank Braddock higher than Walcott because, Jimmy Braddock in his time was one of the greatest Light Heavyweights, he beat alot of good Light Heavies and narrowly lost in his title shot at the weight.

He was never knocked out, and despite lacking a great punch, and being Light Heavyweight, and being unranked and passed his prime physically, he over came 16 months of inactivity, beat the #2 contender at Heavyweight Corn Griffin, then beat John Henry Lewis another great Light Heavyweight turn Heavyweight, then Art Lasky---and even though Max Baer more or less toyed with Braddock in their title fight, Baer brought it on in those last two rounds.

What he did was incredible. It ranks up there in the greatest comeback stories in the history of boxing, almost neck and neck with George Foreman's.

Braddock used his skill and heart and toughness alone to dominate much larger and younger men---plus he also beat Tommy Farr after he lost the championship to Louis, in a much easier fashion than what the Brown Bomber did.

********************************************************

Jersey Joe Walcott was one of the most under-rated Heavyweights of all time. Being a garbage man at day and fighter at night just to get by was hard enough.

His skills were almost second to none, but Walcott never really got any real opprotunities until he was an old man, despite having beat such men as Elmer Violent Ray, Jimmy Bivins and Joey Maxim, as well as other good solid fighters.

Walcott was cheated out of a win against Joe Louis in their first match, but failed to prove himself in the rematch. He faced off with Ezzard Charles, in what is one of the best fueds in Heavyweight history, going 2-2 with possibly the greatest Light Heavyweight who never won the crown at the weight.

Call Walcott old and decrepid by the time he faced Marciano, but he was the first to drop the Rock, and was ahead on all score cards up until the KO. Maybe the rematch has solidified in people's minds that Walcott was too old, as it was a one-sided blow out.

But half a point isn't something to cry about...just Walcott was never given the chance soon enough to prove he was a great fighter against the very best in the world, he was screwed over for too many years, so we will never know how good he could have been.

*******************************************************

Despite the rumors or w/e that Godfrey threw the fight against Carnera, and in my mind I agree Godfrey was one of the greatest Heavyweights of all time who never wore the crown. His KO precentage was over 60%, a rarity in those days, and he used his size very well.

But irregardless of that, Carnera did beat alot of top heavyweights in the division. Carnera faced at least 6 out of 10 heavyweight top contenders, beating them, plus he also faced Baer, Louis and other fine Heavyweights before and after he was champion.

Not many people have a record like Carnera, looking like a WHO's WHO of Heavyweight and Light Heavyweight contenders and former/present/future champions.

BrocktonBlockbuster49 · Post by **BrocktonBlockbuster49** » 07 Apr 2006, 01:44

walcott was better than james j braddock virtually in every way. he also beat better competition than braddock

- how could u rank jimmy braddock over walcott at heavy?

i rank walcott and charles the same at heavyweight

Braddock used his skill and heart and toughness alone to dominate much larger and younger men---plus he also beat Tommy Farr after he lost the championship to Louis, in a much easier fashion than what the Brown Bomber did.

actually many thought farr was robbed vs braddock, i have the fight on tape, it could have gone either way

BrocktonBlockbuster49 · Post by **BrocktonBlockbuster49** » 07 Apr 2006, 01:47

But half a point isn't something to cry about...just Walcott was never given the chance soon enough to prove he was a great fighter against the very best in the world, he was screwed over for too many years, so we will never know how good he could have been.

what are u talking about? he beat joe louis, ezzard charles TWICE, jimmy bivins, lee q murray, elmer ray, joey maxim, harold johnson, curtis sheppard, willie reddish and nearly beat rocky marciano how in gods name did he not prove himself?

walcott defintley proved he was a great fighter. how many fighters beat joe louis and ezzard charles and nearly beat rocky marciano?

how in gods name did he not get a chance to prove himself a greater fighter WHEN HE BEAT THE BEST IN THE WORLD?

HomicideHenry · Post by **HomicideHenry** » 07 Apr 2006, 02:11

I was referring to the first few years of his career. It wasnt until he was older that he really broke through and showed himself as a worthy contender.

Myself I rank Walcott in the top 15 Heavyweights of all time. The sole reason I rank Walcott below Braddock is becase Braddock almost dominated two divisions---he narrowly lost in his only chance at the Light Heavyweight crown and reinvented himself as a Heavyweight in a shocking manner.

But I do agree with you, Walcott was the better fighter all around and if the two men ever did fight---Walcott would have won a wide decision, if not stop Braddock in the later rounds.

Walcott was a heavyweight and beat the best when he was older, but his prime was short---he was 37 when he won the title and lost it not too long afterwards, a rematch with Charles and then it was Marciano.

But Braddock was one of the best Light Heavyweights to never hold the crown, I'd easily rank him in the top 25---plus reinventing himself as a true Heavyweight contender. If Baer wasn't such a clown it would have been over in that very first round, but Braddock won anyways.

Plus Braddock dropped Joe Louis and gave him a hard fight up until the stoppage, Joe Louis would always say Braddock was the most courageous man he ever fought---plus he beat Farr (controversial or not, even Louis had a very close decision win over Farr).

HomicideHenry · Post by **HomicideHenry** » 07 Apr 2006, 02:26

Tommy Farr is one of the top British Heavyweights of all time. He was one of the most skilled boxers and top flight contenders of his era, and if he lived in any other era he probably could have been world champion, despite his lack of a punch.

Carnera faced alot of Heavyweight contenders, no he was shitty fighter dont get me wrong, how he really beat any of those top guys I'll never know cus he is awful on film---but how many other Heavyweights can you name who beat and/or fought that many top contenders?

But if Jersey Joe Walcott did face Carnera, no-contest Walcott would win, he was simply the better fighter and fought better opposition than Carnera did. I don't question that. All I am saying is...Elmer Ray and a few other Heavyweights, like Bivins and Maxim never seemed to get over, they beat a helluva lot of great Heavyweights and would have been champions in any other era---but when they finally reached the best of the best, they couldn't cut the mustard.

As far as Farr goes, I think anybody who would have fought Tommy Farr could tell you that he was the most frustrating man to face cus he was so damn good---I think if Walcott and Farr fought---it would be an extremely close fight, and I wont even say who would win it, cus that is too close to call in my mind.

BrocktonBlockbuster49 · Post by **BrocktonBlockbuster49** » 07 Apr 2006, 02:42

I think if Walcott and Farr fought---it would be an extremely close fight, and I wont even say who would win it, cus that is too close to call in my mind.

o dear!

walcott would kill farr!

HomicideHenry · Post by **HomicideHenry** » 07 Apr 2006, 03:03

Farr's Best Opponents:

1.) Joe Louis- was extremely close and Louis was in his prime
2.) James Braddock- extremely close fight with the ex-champion
3.) Max Baer- Lost one and won one against Baer
4.) Tommy Laughran- Won easy decision
5.) Red Burman- Won one, lost one
6.) Larry Gains- TKO win
7.) Lou Nova- Lost close decision
8.) Don Cockell- KO loss...Farr was well passed his prime, was 1953

And also he was easily one of the top 10 British Heavyweights of all time, I think with that track record and all, I don't think Walcott would have "killed" Farr. Farr was a very tough Welsh fighter, and rarely lost by knockout, and most his loses were early on in his career.

I think it would been close, Farr was very skilled and fast, tough and durable---Walcott was as well---but then again Farr didnt go far in the Heavyweight division either.

Course it is a well known fact after Joe Louis had such a helluva time with Farr, that he never again gave the Welshman a shot. Outside of Walcott and Conn nobody gave Louis such a hard time than Farr did.

But Louis beat Conn early out in his rematch with Conn, as he did with Walcott even though it is evident that Walcott was robbed against Louis in their first encounter---but Louis never did give Farr another shot.

Thats why I think it would have been more closer than people would think.

BrocktonBlockbuster49 · Post by **BrocktonBlockbuster49** » 07 Apr 2006, 03:14

1.) Joe Louis- was extremely close and Louis was in his prime
2.) James Braddock- extremely close fight with the ex-champion
3.) Max Baer- Lost one and won one against Baer
4.) Tommy Laughran- Won easy decision
5.) Red Burman- Won one, lost one
6.) Larry Gains- TKO win
7.) Lou Nova- Lost close decision
8.) Don Cockell- KO loss...Farr was well passed his prime, was 1953

- farr wasnt extremely close. he clearly lost the joe louis fight, and the only reason he lasted was because louis badly hurt his right hand in the 5th round.

- LARRY GAINS WAS 38 AND BASICALLY SHOT WHEN FARR BEAT HIM

prime for prime larry gains beats tommy farr

jersey joe walcott beat far better competition than farr

HomicideHenry · Post by **HomicideHenry** » 07 Apr 2006, 03:26

Broken hand or not, Louis never did give Farr another shot, which he deserved cus he beaten many foes afterwards---Farr put up a helluva better fight than let's say Johnny Paycheck???

There should have been more quality fights rather than quantity on Louis' resume---he should have faced Turkey Thompson and a few other deserving Heavyweights, but he didnt, Louis just played it safe---and too damn safe for my tastes.

BrocktonBlockbuster49 · Post by **BrocktonBlockbuster49** » 07 Apr 2006, 03:29

he should have faced Turkey Thompson and a few other deserving Heavyweights, but he didnt, Louis just played it safe---and too damn safe for my tastes.

louis fought bob pastor, who twice shutout turkey thompson.

remember louis missed nearly 4 years due to WW II, so thats another reason why he never got to fight a guy like turkey thompson