Stiverne

[asdfjkl]

There is no other side, I wouldn't listen to the other side if you were touting the benefits of cutting off your own arm either. All of you that entertain even a smidgen of a chance that Wilder is behind all this are too stupid to interact with the other humans. You all should be quarantined. King isn't involved in boxing anymore for the most part and the wbc has list a lot of money in wilders opponents ped abuse. It's hilarious you guys think an unknown boxer runs poo.

And you are still not listening. Nobody said that Wilder running something. He is a potential source of a lot of money for Haymon and WBC if he gets a shot at Joshua. They have serious motives to protect him from anybody remotely dangerous.

Nothing to listen to, you're nuts. Povetkin was a gigantic payday for both of them. Wilder spent money to secure Ortiz. Just hate him and be done with it. Don't let disliking a fighter make you embarrass yourself. Anyway, off to ignore for you too.

Then why doesn't he fight Ortiz? Oh yea, because he doesn't want to and he doesn't dare to.

[candyslim]

The heavyweight division is garbage overall. Has been for many many moons.

People have always complained at the poor state of the Heavyweight division compared to previous decades. It's human nature. Sometimes they're right and sometimes they're wrong. Just two years ago we had Klitschko, Fury, Wilder,Joshua, Ortiz, Pulev, Parker ... doesn't sound so bad to me.

Long gone are the zenith years when men like Bowe, Holyfield, Tyson and Lewis ruled the earth. Throw in old George Foreman for good measure.

Admittedly a fine era

So what's wrong with Stiverne being the #1 guy with such a dilapidated division?

You have to be joking. His last fight was against Derric Rossy a veteran journeyman who put him on the floor. He got the decision which some say was undeserved but I can't confirm or deny because there is no footage on youtube. His fight before that was three years ago against wilder. There's a reason people don't want to watch a remake.

I realize that this forum has a Britno-centric view, so if Deontay Wilder is the topic, then you can be sure that his opponent will be blasted and the Bronze Bomber will be ridiculed.

It's nothing to do with nationality. I don't recall anybody blasting Povetkin or Ortiz but then can you include them as opponents?

Probably (sic) has something to do with the boys here trying to build Joshua into God, and praying that Wilder doesn't ruin those pipe dreams someday.

If a fighter comes along who is better than Joshua and doesn't avoid anyone dangerous, then so be it. As a Brit I'm very proud of Joshua but if I were to list all my favourite Heavyweights, the list would be predominantly American

Stiverne is a capable foe. He can undoubtedly beat most in the division.

I don't believe that, not now. Rossy is the only indicator we've got and what we know about that fight casts considerable doubt on your statement.

Nothing wrong with Wilder giving him another crack, futile though it may be.

There's plenty wrong with it. Ok you can't blame Wilder not directly but Sulaiman has some questions to answer.

Is it Deontay's fault that every big name that signs to fight him feels they need to turn to turn to PEDS so that they can compete with him?

I don't necessarily blame Wilder but controversy is never far away from him and you can never assume any fight with an opponent who's dangerous is going to happen. If Povetkin and Ortiz were taking banned substances, do you think they only started doing that when they knew they were going to (scheduled to be) fighting Wilder ?

Comments in reply to the above inserted between each point.

[Tony1244]

Deontay Corleone, too unknown to draw a crowd outside of Alabama but so connected that he can spend 10 times his payday to fix rankings and drug tests. Honestly, this Wilder mob conspiracy is absolutely the dumbest thing I've ever seen on Boxing message boards.

You two sound like imbeciles not capable of listening the other side. Live in your imaginary world where King, Haymon and Sulaiman are honest people.

There is no other side, I wouldn't listen to the other side if you were touting the benefits of cutting off your own arm either. All of you that entertain even a smidgen of a chance that Wilder is behind all this are too stupid to interact with the other humans. You all should be quarantined. King isn't involved in boxing anymore for the most part and the wbc has list a lot of money in wilders opponents ped abuse. It's hilarious you guys think an unknown boxer runs poo.

The only thing I'd change about Saad's response is I'd call you ignorant in lieu of stupid. You may be smart in other areas but are clueless when it comes to boxing. I'll try again. Wilder isn't signed with King so King would love Wilder to lose. Hayman makes money regardless of who is fighting and Ortiz is probably a bigger cash cow than Wilder. One more time: Virtually no one in America has any focking notion who Deontay Wilder is. Boxing doesn't really exist here other than huge PPV which are excuses for wealthy people to throw big parties. The Latino community is the only community in the US that likes boxing and they'd pay to see Ortiz, not Wilder.

[boxing_rocks]

You two sound like imbeciles not capable of listening the other side. Live in your imaginary world where King, Haymon and Sulaiman are honest people.

There is no other side, I wouldn't listen to the other side if you were touting the benefits of cutting off your own arm either. All of you that entertain even a smidgen of a chance that Wilder is behind all this are too stupid to interact with the other humans. You all should be quarantined. King isn't involved in boxing anymore for the most part and the wbc has list a lot of money in wilders opponents ped abuse. It's hilarious you guys think an unknown boxer runs poo.

The only thing I'd change about Saad's response is I'd call you ignorant in lieu of stupid. You may be smart in other areas but are clueless when it comes to boxing. I'll try again. Wilder isn't signed with King so King would love Wilder to lose. Hayman makes money regardless of who is fighting and Ortiz is probably a bigger cash cow than Wilder. One more time: Virtually no one in America has any focking notion who Deontay Wilder is. Boxing doesn't really exist here other than huge PPV which are excuses for wealthy people to throw big parties. The Latino community is the only community in the US that likes boxing and they'd pay to see Ortiz, not Wilder.

Exactly. Which is why the only way to make big money on Wilder is to match him with Joshua, and for that, they need to keep him undefeated.

[candyslim]

I'm sure King would like Wilder to lose ... to Stiverne, but that's not going to happen so he'll settle for his man getting an undeserved title shot.

Nobody ever said Haymon was strapped for cash, but Wilder is his fighter, his Heavyweight champion irrespective of how little or how well known he is outside of boxing. I'm sure he'd rather have Joshua under his control but that's not happening, It is what it is. Even if no one but a boxing fan would recognize him outside of Alabama he is still worth a lot of money if he can stay undefeated long enough to get the unification fight in London.

Ortiz is 38 going on 45. He is not a long term investment for anyone.

When it was suggested that Stiverne was number one because of King's relationship with Sulaiman, this elicited a clap hands in approval emoji from Saad. So we are agreed these two jokers are not above a bit of manipulation, back-scratching, corruption. I suggested Haymon is part of the clique and suddenly I'm demented and mystifyingly stupid. How is that such a huge leap?

Wilder lost a lot of credibility rejecting huge money to fight Whyte. How can he repair the damage? Clearly one way would be to fight someone regarded as even more dangerous than Whyte. Better still lose the risk factor by having the fight scrapped due the other guy's fukc-up. Ortiz is the bogeyman. Ortiz is taking hypertension pills known to be useful as a masking agent. Is he up to his old tricks? Who knows or cares. We have the connections, We can get the fight trashed and we're back on track with reputation restored (mostly)

You know I predicted the fight wouldn't happen but Wilder won me over. I came to believe it was on the level, that Wilder was hurting from the criticism (Whyte fight) and that he believed he could beat old man Ortiz after his last two unimpressive outings. You know what I just couldn't get my head around though? : Stiverne was adamant he wanted Wilder and wasn't going to take any amount of step-aside money. Then he's convinced to take the money and defer his shot until after Ortiz. Nothing wrong with that - it is as they say, a no brainer. No, what I found astonishing really astonishing. was the news that Stiverne was going to risk his mandatory shot at Wilder, which was so damn precious to him, fighting a man most would favour say 60/40 to beat him. I could not believe it ... unless the WBC had demanded it. Nothing was even suggested to that effect.

Then Ortiz is out of the fight, Stiverne is back in without having to face Breazeale, and this cynical old bastard's bullshit detector is doing back-flips. Suddenly it all makes sense but only if Stiverne knew he'd not have to fight Breazeale.

Tony I don't know whether there is a conspiracy or no,t but I'm not going to stick my fingers in my ears and chant "La la la - I'm not listening"

Sorry to be so long-winded but it's not an easy thing to explain in a few words.

[Tony1244]

There is no other side, I wouldn't listen to the other side if you were touting the benefits of cutting off your own arm either. All of you that entertain even a smidgen of a chance that Wilder is behind all this are too stupid to interact with the other humans. You all should be quarantined. King isn't involved in boxing anymore for the most part and the wbc has list a lot of money in wilders opponents ped abuse. It's hilarious you guys think an unknown boxer runs poo.

The only thing I'd change about Saad's response is I'd call you ignorant in lieu of stupid. You may be smart in other areas but are clueless when it comes to boxing. I'll try again. Wilder isn't signed with King so King would love Wilder to lose. Hayman makes money regardless of who is fighting and Ortiz is probably a bigger cash cow than Wilder. One more time: Virtually no one in America has any focking notion who Deontay Wilder is. Boxing doesn't really exist here other than huge PPV which are excuses for wealthy people to throw big parties. The Latino community is the only community in the US that likes boxing and they'd pay to see Ortiz, not Wilder.

Exactly. Which is why the only way to make big money on Wilder is to match him with Joshua, and for that, they need to keep him undefeated.

Of course all undefeated fighters want to stay undefeated fighters. No one is arguing that Wilder wasn't brought along ridiculously slowly. But you are guessing at a convoluted conspiracy theory with no evidence whatsoever. People get annoyed when people "guess." I don't really care here but in the real world it can be quite inconvenient.

[KiwiRider]

I don't think Wilder fighting Stiverne again is quite what Eddie had in mind when he asked him to fight someone of note before he gets a go at AJ.
Wilder can call out Sir Humblelot as much and as shouty as he wants. But if he wants the big money, he has to prove he is willing to do a little work for it. And prove to Eddie he is worth that big money.
Getting a million bucks to fight a bum in Alabama ain't worth 10 million in London.

[Stuarty]

Big Haitian diddy

[asdfjkl]

I don't think Wilder fighting Stiverne again is quite what Eddie had in mind when he asked him to fight someone of note before he gets a go at AJ.
Wilder can call out Sir Humblelot as much and as shouty as he wants. But if he wants the big money, he has to prove he is willing to do a little work for it. And prove to Eddie he is worth that big money.
Getting a million bucks to fight a bum in Alabama ain't worth 10 million in London.

What happened with the Parker story? Parker is free again right?

[KiwiRider]

I don't think Wilder fighting Stiverne again is quite what Eddie had in mind when he asked him to fight someone of note before he gets a go at AJ.
Wilder can call out Sir Humblelot as much and as shouty as he wants. But if he wants the big money, he has to prove he is willing to do a little work for it. And prove to Eddie he is worth that big money.
Getting a million bucks to fight a bum in Alabama ain't worth 10 million in London.

What happened with the Parker story? Parker is free again right?

I think a voluntary is close to being signed for Japan mate.

[Tony1244]

candyslim,

I don't sit here and memorize your exact words or other posters exact words on everything. But a few of you were writing as though Pedvikins and Ortiz' failed test were a certain conspiracy to protect Wilder. Almost anything is possible, but in this case it is very far from probable. I never said the theory is completely impossible; I will say it is highly unlikelly.

As for fighters ducking other fighters, that goes back to at least the 1800s. Nothing new here. Most fans would view Ortiz as a tougher opponent than Whyte, and Wilder was set to fight Ortiz. Stiverne is older than Whtye, so I always favor giving the older guy a shot. I don't like Stiverne, so hopefully Wilder KOs him and shuts him up for good.

In conclusion, saying Wilder has ducked fighters is correct. Wondering whether a test was fake is one thing, talking about it like its a certainty is another.

[candyslim]

Tony I don't expect you to waste your time wading through my posting history, but I assure you I have never believed it unequivocally, it was always a theory to cover the niggling doubts that I found difficulty getting reconciled to. I did chide Saad on more than one occasion for his refusal to acknowledge even a miniscule possibility that there was more to this than Haymon/Sulaiman were wanting us to believe.

Confronted with such categoric denial might have made me argue the case with more conviction than I possessed. It wasn't that he didn't believe it, it was the dogmatic 'you're stupid for even considering the possibility attitude' that was getting my back up ...like Sulaiman and Haymon are such paragons of virtue.

I don't ask you to accept it. Your keeping an open mind will do just fine.

[montrealsuper]

After 2 years since his last fight against Wilder , how is he the mandatory?

Because he threw the fight to Wilder and part of the reward for doing so was the gaurantee of another payday. That payday is another fixed rematch with Wilder. That's the only option for Stiverne who is a ZERO seller. Notice how Stiverne has kept his mouth shut waiting for the fixed rematch to take place, no complaining, no trash talking WIlder or haymon, just quietly waiting to take another dive for the much needed payday.

The WBC has a long history of following the dictates of certain fighters and promoters - Roy Jones (Rocchigiani lawsuit), Don King, and now Haymon/Wilder. Be 100% sure Stiverne will either take a dive or throw the fight in some way. Stiverne is a paid off pawn who works for and serves Haymon's agenda which is to build up fraud Wilder into a big draw.

[Tony1244]

Tony I don't expect you to waste your time wading through my posting history, but I assure you I have never believed it unequivocally, it was always a theory to cover the niggling doubts that I found difficulty getting reconciled to. I did chide Saad on more than one occasion for his refusal to acknowledge even a miniscule possibility that there was more to this than Haymon/Sulaiman were wanting us to believe.

Confronted with such categoric denial might have made me argue the case with more conviction than I possessed. It wasn't that he didn't believe it, it was the dogmatic 'you're stupid for even considering the possibility attitude' that was getting my back up ...like Sulaiman and Haymon are such paragons of virtue.

I don't ask you to accept it. Your keeping an open mind will do just fine.

Ok, are you going to take on montrealsuper's dogmatism above?

[SaadOffTheDeck]

Definitely a zero percent chance this conspiracy is real. Nobody conspires to lose money. That's what bumbling idiots like slim and the stooges can't grasp.

[punchoutsb]

Definitely a zero percent chance this conspiracy is real. Nobody conspires to lose money. That's what bumbling idiots like slim and the stooges can't grasp.

Pay this guy to step aside, then pay this organization to fail the guy that we paid another guy to step aside for, now go back to the first guy and pay him to fight since we've paid an organization to fail the second guy.

Does Warren Buffett know about this ingenious financial plan?!

[tiny_acres]

Definitely a zero percent chance this conspiracy is real. Nobody conspires to lose money. That's what bumbling idiots like slim and the stooges can't grasp.

Pay this guy to step aside, then pay this organization to fail the guy that we paid another guy to step aside for, now go back to the first guy and pay him to fight since we've paid an organization to fail the second guy.

Does Warren Buffett know about this ingenious financial plan?!

Brilliant summary. I still bet one of these idiots will try to explain again how it makes sense.

[boxing_rocks]

Did anybody see step aside money hitting Stiverne's account ? I bet he is not getting them now.

[punchoutsb]

Did anybody see step aside money hitting Stiverne's account ? I bet he is not getting them now.

Ok so...

Fake pay a guy step aside money so that you can fake sign to fight another, pay an organization to fake a positive drug test for the second guy (who has a following of like eight fans in the world) so that you can go back and fight the first guy.

Does Stephen King know about this story line?!

[boxing_rocks]

The real money can only come from the Joshua fight. Other purses are pocket change compared to that.

So, Wilder's handlers and their friends need to keep him safe, so that he could get Joshua. On the other hand, a champion fighting obvious bums for years looks ridiculous. They need to demonstrate that he is ready to take on anybody. If he keeps fighting bums, Joshua won't fight him. A solution to these conflicting requirements is to sign a fight against a dangerous fighter who then "unfortunately" tests dirty.

Stephen King doesn't write such primitive realistic stories.

[SaadOffTheDeck]

Definitely a zero percent chance this conspiracy is real. Nobody conspires to lose money. That's what bumbling idiots like slim and the stooges can't grasp.

Pay this guy to step aside, then pay this organization to fail the guy that we paid another guy to step aside for, now go back to the first guy and pay him to fight since we've paid an organization to fail the second guy.

Does Warren Buffett know about this ingenious financial plan?!

[boxing_rocks]

The most suspicious is Wilder always testing clean. At minimum, he knows when the "random" tests occur and makes adjustments to his "nutrition" schedule.

[BAD INTENTIONS]

Deontay "Kingpin" Wilder pulling international fraud.
Some of you guys have an imagination on you.

No one cares about WIlder in America.
Insignificant.
If he were to lose the title,
less than 5% of the country would even know.

I'm just gonna blame stupid doping standards and Povetkin and Ortiz
for me ignoring Wilder's last 5 (and soon to be 6) fights.

[candyslim]

Tony I don't expect you to waste your time wading through my posting history, but I assure you I have never believed it unequivocally, it was always a theory to cover the niggling doubts that I found difficulty getting reconciled to. I did chide Saad on more than one occasion for his refusal to acknowledge even a miniscule possibility that there was more to this than Haymon/Sulaiman were wanting us to believe.

Confronted with such categoric denial might have made me argue the case with more conviction than I possessed. It wasn't that he didn't believe it, it was the dogmatic 'you're stupid for even considering the possibility attitude' that was getting my back up ...like Sulaiman and Haymon are such paragons of virtue.

I don't ask you to accept it. Your keeping an open mind will do just fine.

Ok, are you going to take on montrealsuper's dogmatism above?

I think I've made my thoughts on the subject pretty clear.

[Enlightened-One]

The most suspicious is Wilder always testing clean. At minimum, he knows when the "random" tests occur and makes adjustments to his "nutrition" schedule.

You passionately defend the innocence of a fighter that has tested positive twice for banned substances (steroids and masking agents), but yet you propose unsubstantiated slanderous accusations against another man that is tested for every single bout he competes in and has consistently proven himself to be a “clean” athlete?