well judging by the way he fought that gruelling 15 rounder vs qawi, i think he had the mental strength.Decagon wrote:Thomas was as shot as JFK by the time Holyfield and he fought. We have no idea if Holyfield had the mental strength he did in the 1980s that he did in the 1990s.
Imo Evander would always have beaten Tyson because he was the mentally stronger fighter and would have broken even a prime 80s Tyson... Tyson may have been the more explosive and powerful fighter at his peak but boxing is as much about mentality and spirit as it is about the physical attributes... there was no way that Ali should have beaten Foreman in '74 but he did it with spirit and mental strength and also a damn good chin... Holyfield had simular advantages over Tyson and in his Prime Holyfield would have matched Mike for speed and pace as well... Evander wins every time...BrocktonBlockbuster49 wrote:evndrbsn wrote:A lot better than the version that fought Tyson, too. Now do you agree that Holyfield was not in his prime when he fought Tyson?BrocktonBlockbuster49 wrote:silk,
lately i been watching a lot of late 80s/early 90s holyfield and let me say im very impressed with evander. he looked awesome in the late 80s, a lot better than the version who fought lennox.
yes i agree,
however holyfield put on an incredible preformance vs tyson, one of the best of his career. holy looked better in tyson fight than lewis fight. i also think tyson was just as past his prime but far more mentally screwed up and more rusty than evander holyfield. i do think prime for prime, based on styles tyson wins. however prime holyfield beats lennox. holyfield looked damm good in the late 80s, i mean damm good. much faster and better boxer. i think the 200lb version of holyfield was as good as any heavyweight version of holyfield.
i was very impressed with a peak holyfield!i havnt studied holyfield in the late 80s enough, im glad i have now.
I always thought that when Holyfield lost to Bowe the first time, he made a major mistake by adding even more extra muscle. He looked horrid against Stewart in the rematch right after Bowe and he never again looked like the Holyfield of old in any subsequent fight. Holyfield was at his best in the 202-210 range. He had great stamina, speed, and a pretty good workrate. So to me, Holyfield's prime ended the night he lost to Bowe. He was in his prime when he lost the fight, he just fought a stupid fight to try to KO Bowe because he thought he was getting unfairly criticized in the press for not knocking people out. That extra muscle might have helped him beat Bowe in the rematch, but it effectively ended his most entertaining days and in my opinion, his peak days as a heavyweight.BrocktonBlockbuster49 wrote:faded pinklon thomas, faded quick tillis, peak michael dokes, alex stewartDecagon wrote:Holyfield didn't beat anyone in the 1980s. How do you know he was at his best.BrocktonBlockbuster49 wrote:i think tyson and holyfields best was the late 80s. not 1990s
notice how in 89, holyfield beats stewart pretty conviningly by KO, and then in 93 holy struggled more and allows stewart to take him the distance? i think holy was a better fighter in late 80s.
i think holyfield looked much faster, quicker rexlexes in late 1980s
I agree silkov, Holyfeield was definetly not in his prime when he fought Lewis.....and Holyfield still gave Lewis a hell of a time in the rematch and in my opinion Holyfield won. During the 80's Holyfield was unstoppable and his heart is up there with fellow legendary Heavyweight Larry Holmes in that era. A prime Holyfield of the Douglas, Dokes, Foreman etc fights wipes out Lewis in 3 rounds max. I just cannot see Lewis take Evander's agression.silkov wrote:Your telling me that after all his wars and his losses to Bowe and Moorer, Evander was still at his peak against lewis?... watch Holyfield vs Lewis 1 or 2 and then watch some of Evanders fights from the late 80s to early 90s and tell me that he hadn't slowed down a mighty lot... a peak Holyfield would have outworked Lewis... as it was both fights were mighty close... all the controversy about the 1st fight has made people forget that it was a very close fight and the 2nd fight was even closer...Decagon wrote:No, that's an opinion. Holyfield wasn't coming off three years of inactivity and Dempsey was. That is a fact.
You seem to forget that old Foreman has never been knocked out much less floored. Old Foreman also never ONCE sat on his stool through out all his fights. Its an insult to compare Lewis to a legenadary fighter like Foreman.Decagon wrote:So, Holyfield goes the distance with a 43-year-old Foreman, but knocks out Lewis? That makes no sense.
While I disagree mostly with what RazorKO says, he isn't too far off the mark here. I think that if Holyfield would have fought Lennox Lewis instead of Riddick Bowe in fall of 1992, Holyfield emerges as a TKO victor, probably around rounds 3-6. Prime vs. prime, though, I think Lewis gives Holyfield a fit but Holyfield still scores a stoppage.Decagon wrote:So, Holyfield goes the distance with a 43-year-old Foreman, but knocks out Lewis? That makes no sense.
In all fairness, it was more exhaustion that sent Foreman to the ground in round 12 against Jimmy Young. Young more or less just guided him there.Decagon wrote:Foreman was an old fart who threw two good punches in his second career. All he did was cover up round after round. Heck, in his prime, he was sent to the canvas by light-hitting Jimmy Young.RazorKO wrote:You seem to forget that old Foreman has never been knocked out much less floored. Old Foreman also never ONCE sat on his stool through out all his fights. Its an insult to compare Lewis to a legenadary fighter like Foreman.
It was definetly exhaustion Evndrbsn, I recently rewwatched the fight and Young didnt even connect his right on Foreman. Young's right grazly hit Foreman and Foreman fell on one knee and was up before the count of 1. You could see Foreman's left arm trying to hand on the ropes to keep his balance.evndrbsn wrote:In all fairness, it was more exhaustion that sent Foreman to the ground in round 12 against Jimmy Young. Young more or less just guided him there.Decagon wrote:Foreman was an old fart who threw two good punches in his second career. All he did was cover up round after round. Heck, in his prime, he was sent to the canvas by light-hitting Jimmy Young.RazorKO wrote:You seem to forget that old Foreman has never been knocked out much less floored. Old Foreman also never ONCE sat on his stool through out all his fights. Its an insult to compare Lewis to a legenadary fighter like Foreman.
Decagon wrote:RazorKO wrote:Foreman was an old fart who threw two good punches in his second career. All he did was cover up round after round. Heck, in his prime, he was sent to the canvas by light-hitting Jimmy Young.Decagon wrote:You seem to forget that old Foreman has never been knocked out much less floored. Old Foreman also never ONCE sat on his stool through out all his fights. Its an insult to compare Lewis to a legenadary fighter like Foreman.
George Foreman an old fart?... what you been watching man?... I think you've read Lewis' biography too many times...Decagon wrote:RazorKO wrote:Foreman was an old fart who threw two good punches in his second career. All he did was cover up round after round. Heck, in his prime, he was sent to the canvas by light-hitting Jimmy Young.Decagon wrote:You seem to forget that old Foreman has never been knocked out much less floored. Old Foreman also never ONCE sat on his stool through out all his fights. Its an insult to compare Lewis to a legenadary fighter like Foreman.
Dokes was in his prime when he fought Coetzee. Dokes was past it and hooked on drugs when he fought Holyfield. That doesnt say that Dokes was crap when he fought Holy, Aaron Pryor was on drugs when he fought Arguello and Pyror peformed remarkably.BrocktonBlockbuster49 wrote:Holy beat a PEAK Dokes!!! Are you serious?? You think Dokes was at his peak when he fought Holyfield?
yep,
i believe dokes was drug free at the time. all i know is dokes looked better on film vs holyfield than in any other fight in his career. it was dokes best fight
Ruiz was not waaaaay ahead in the fight going into the 10th. Holyfield lost a point in the 10th and got knocked down in the 11th, which put him really far behind. If Cortez started counting, Ruiz would have stayed on the canvas and complained it was a low blow all the way up to the count of 10.Decagon wrote:Even if it had been ruled a punch, Ruiz was waaaaay ahead in that fight. Ruiz has shown a great ability to recover from being hurt, and to survive nearly anything. He probably would have gotten up before 10 and held on for dear life until the round was over.evndrbsn wrote:There really should have been a third fight, and there would have been, if Joe Cortez correctly ruled the body punch KO against Ruiz in round 10 of the second fight instead of calling it foul. Probably would have helped if Lewis didn't get KO'd a month later, also.
Dokes was in pretty good shape against Holyfieild and was clean I believe at the time, but he had lost quite a bit of speed especially from his legs and was certainly not as mobile as he had been in the early 80s...BrocktonBlockbuster49 wrote:i think dokes was better vs holyfield than when he fought coetzee
He might have been getting up against Golota because he was really getting hit low (and his protector would have blocked a lot of the force). He wouldn't have gotten back up against Holyfield (and didn't before the toll of 10) because he was KO'd by a great left hook to the body and the wind was sucked out of him. Ruiz had it set in his mind he was going to act if he could to fool Joe Cortez and he did.Decagon wrote:The first half of your post was good, but the last half wasn't. Ruiz was fouled all over the place against Golota, but he kept getting up.evndrbsn wrote:Ruiz was not waaaaay ahead in the fight going into the 10th. Holyfield lost a point in the 10th and got knocked down in the 11th, which put him really far behind. If Cortez started counting, Ruiz would have stayed on the canvas and complained it was a low blow all the way up to the count of 10.