Joe Frazier?

[NYDominican]

Throughout Joe Frazier's professional boxing career, he fought Muhammad Ali three times. Joe won once, Muhammad won twice.


Had Frazier fought Ali three times between February, 1967 and June 23, 1969, who would have won?


What advantages would Joe have had over Muhammad?


What advantages would Ali have had over Frazier?



What do you see happening in these fights from between February, 1967 and June 23, 1969?



Who would win these 3 fights? Why?


Please explain.

[Kalan]

A younger Frazier wins... Say the guy in Frazier-Ellis 1.. Very fast hands and a natural left hooker.. Ali was very vulnerable to left hooks.

[darkrobot]

A younger Frazier wins... Say the guy in Frazier-Ellis 1.. Very fast hands and a natural left hooker.. Ali was very vulnerable to left hooks.

Yes, he used to pull his head back thinking he was avoiding them but was actually leaning straight into their path.

Loved the Frazier/ Ali/ Foreman threesome.

[Tony1244]

Ali wins, stoppage somewhere between round 10-15. Ali had underrated power.

[Kalan]

Ali didn't have power and he admitted it... After the Foreman-Norton fight They asked Ali how Frazier and Norton could go 24 rounds each with Ali but only 2 with Foreman.. He said, "I'm not a hard puncher. I'm not known for being a hard puncher."

You don't have to be a hard puncher to beat somebody -- and according to Gene Tunney, a lack of power helps you get a lot more rounds to where you pick up additional boxing expertise and mastery -- that most devastating punchers never acquire because they blow people away too quickly too learn anything.

But, to my mind, power helps you a lot more than the lack of it -- because your punches get there faster, smoother, and with less effort. If you're somebody like Anthony Joshua, you have enough money to hire umpteen sparring partners, box 16 rounds in a session, and pick up your skills in the gym. You don't need a zillion rounds. But somebody like Frazier, when he sparred in the gym he didn't box. Every day it was another war with all of his spar mates. He built up a lot of expertise on attacking people and trading punches -- but that doesn't help you when you're facing somebody like George Foreman.

So I would say Ali could handle more styles of boxing than Frazier could.. Ali could certainly beat more guys.. But Frazier had the style advantage in this particular match-up.. A prime Frazier of the 1967 to '69 time frame would always beat the best Ali.. Frazier only had 32 wins and washed out early.

[SaadOffTheDeck]

I have to like prime Frazier 2-1 over Ali. In the fotc Joe was battling ring rust and coming off a major injury. His eyesight was also beginning to fail. Nobody mentions any of that because they're too busy making excuses for Muhammad.

[Kalan]

Just a tad more ring rust than Ali ... Frazier saw only 6 rounds of action in all of 1970 -- versus 15 rounds for Ali, which had him prepped and ready ... especially since Ali had 12 rounds in the last quarter and Frazier less than 2. Frazier won that one when they were both 20-something...prime for prime.

[SaadOffTheDeck]

Many of the inactive months for Frazier he was also unable to train due to the ankle.

[Kalan]

Ali never fought anybody like Buster Douglas...

You could look for a 6'4" X 232 Heavyweight, who's blazing fast with outstanding boxing and punching ability on Ali's record... You'd be wasting your time.

Tyson never dreamed Buster had that kind of fight in him -- or he would have been better prepared... However, I think he still would have had problems.

[Kalan]

You have to get away from the buffet table to go fishing... So that was unlikely...

But Douglas was a bigger, taller, and faster version of Ali with a much harder punch, a body attack, and all-around game -- who didn't pull straight back from swings.. Douglas had every possible advantage.. His dad was a competent professional boxer and taught him from a very young age like Mayweather's dad.

[elmersalsa]

Frazier's previous 6 opponents going into the FOTC.

1970-11-18 209 Bob Foster
1970-02-16 205 Jimmy Ellis
1969-06-23 203½ Jerry Quarry
1969-04-22 204½ Dave Zyglewicz
1968-12-10 203 Oscar Bonavena 207
1968-06-24 203½ Manuel Ramos

Ali's previous 6.

1970-12-07 212 Oscar Bonavena
1970-10-26 213½ Jerry Quarry


1967-03-22 211½ Zora Folley
1967-02-06 212¼ Ernie Terrell
1966-11-14 212¾ Cleveland Williams
1966-09-10 204¼ Karl Mildenberger

But Joe, apparently is the one with the ring rust.

The great Bob Foster weigh in 209lbs for the Smokin' Joe fight? Wow! It sure doesn't seemed like it.

[Kalan]

Frazier's previous 6 opponents going into the FOTC.

1970-11-18 209 Bob Foster
1970-02-16 205 Jimmy Ellis
1969-06-23 203½ Jerry Quarry
1969-04-22 204½ Dave Zyglewicz
1968-12-10 203 Oscar Bonavena 207
1968-06-24 203½ Manuel Ramos

Ali's previous 6.

1970-12-07 212 Oscar Bonavena
1970-10-26 213½ Jerry Quarry


1967-03-22 211½ Zora Folley
1967-02-06 212¼ Ernie Terrell
1966-11-14 212¾ Cleveland Williams
1966-09-10 204¼ Karl Mildenberger

But Joe, apparently is the one with the ring rust.

The great Bob Foster weigh in 209lbs for the Smokin' Joe fight? Wow! It sure doesn't seemed like it.

Those are Frazier's and Ali's weights... NOT their opponents...

Just from memory Foster was 188, which was inflated by at least 5 pounds... Ellis was 197 and a bit fat... Quarry wa 195... Zyglewicz was 189... Bonavena was 207... Ramos was 205 I think, that's a little foggy... Bonavena was 203... Quarry was 196... Folley was 202... Terrell was 213... Williams was 210... Mlidenberger was 194... I remember all those fights like they were yesterday... I remember the weigh-ins, the fights, and pretty much what most of the weights were.