Patterson vs. Folley

bill.lockhart · Post by **bill.lockhart** » 08 Apr 2006, 06:42

It's October 1958, and Cus D'amato accepts Zora Folley's challenge
to meet Floyd Patterson, who has just succesfully defended his championship against Roy Harris. After Johannson stops Machen in one round, Folley is the leading contender. At 27, he is in the prime of his career. Patterson is 23. This should be a good fight.
Who wins it?

tigerpomfret · Post by **tigerpomfret** » 08 Apr 2006, 07:11

What a shame pattersons manager refused to let him fight a decent fighter till after his beatings by liston,but patterson showed his class for years after that,figting allcomers,physicly and mentally superb. what a class fighter he really was,why he is so underated even now baffels?
I think folley would have shaded a 15 round points verdict,much like the outcome if the superb techniqe of machin would beat patterson late on in a 15 round title fight.
I feel sorry for cleveland williams,it`s criminal how he was never giving a title shot when he was in his prime,he would have destroyed patterson and most other so called TOP any era heavies,but sadly was way to powerfuland dangerous at that time..Just watched ALI destroy williams on the video,sad ,10 or more years before,and he would have gave ali as much trouble as anyone.

bill.lockhart · Post by **bill.lockhart** » 08 Apr 2006, 11:49

Can't agree
Floyd was faster & a better banger than Folley. He could box with Folley,
but would have assumed the role of aggressor in this one. Neither had the greatest whiskers, but Floyd would get up. Folley wouldn't. If they had met at this time, I see a very even fight over the first half, with Floyd pulling away & stopping Zora in 10 to 12 heats.

BoxBuzz · Post by **BoxBuzz** » 08 Apr 2006, 11:57

pretty sure we would have heard the following......

......AND NEW.... HEAVYWEIGHT CHAMPION OF THE WORLD....

bill.lockhart · Post by **bill.lockhart** » 08 Apr 2006, 12:59

BoxBuzz wrote:pretty sure we would have heard the following......

......AND NEW.... HEAVYWEIGHT CHAMPION OF THE WORLD....

Henry Cooper, Alejandro Lavorante, Brian London, Doug Jones

... Please...

Folley wouldn't have stood a snowballs chance in hell vs. Floyd

adspath · Post by **adspath** » 08 Apr 2006, 13:13

Patterson was a great fighter..iff he had the same build as Mike Tyson he would have been even better because the style Cus D'Amato taught these two involved a lot of back movement....just look at Tyson's back

BrocktonBlockbuster49 · Post by **BrocktonBlockbuster49** » 08 Apr 2006, 14:42

ill get straight to the point.........

glass jaw folley would have sucummbed to pattersons combination of speed and power in 5 rounds

BoxBuzz · Post by **BoxBuzz** » 08 Apr 2006, 14:54

I'm of the mind that Patterson was a fluke on the HW scale of things.

Lost to Joey Maxim
Knocked down by Rademacher (How'd that happen?)
KO'd once and fought two competitive fights with Ingemar
Outed twice in one round by Liston
Notched by Jerry Quarry
Notched by Jimmy Ellis
This guy was down more times than the Dow Jones.

He had fast hands, good left, china chin and lost too many times to questionable talent. Avoided Folley and Williams and only took chances when he had nothing to lose. Not a recipe for a great one from my point of view. Most want to blame his shortcomings on his handlers, I think he fought above his paygrade after his fluke championship due to pride and heart. He was good guy with great determination.

He only looked competitve against Ali in the second fight because he had great motivation and determination and went out on his sword against a great who did not take him the least bit seriously the second time around. I think he ended up teaching Ali that even he better show up prepared for everybody. I think Ali kept that lesson right up until Spinks I.

He is a great person, but not one of the great fighters. ( I won't use the word champion because I do think he made a great champ for other reasons.) I think the word Champion has a richer meaning....don't mean to change the subject here.

BrocktonBlockbuster49 · Post by **BrocktonBlockbuster49** » 08 Apr 2006, 15:44

Lost to Joey Maxim
Knocked down by Rademacher (How'd that happen?)
KO'd once and fought two competitive fights with Ingemar
Outed twice in one round by Liston
Notched by Jerry Quarry
Notched by Jimmy Ellis
This guy was down more times than the Dow Jones.

he was robbed vs quarry, especially first fight.

- past his prime patterson kicked the shit out of ellis breaking his nose, knocking him down(incorrectley ruled slip) YET WAS ROBBED

- he knocked out ingo twice. ingo blasted machen out in 1

- he was only 19 years old when he lost to maxim

- he was not knocked down by radamacher, watch the tape. its a slip

patterson knocked out archie moore who would have have killed folley

The Great John L · Post by **The Great John L** » 08 Apr 2006, 15:52

bill.lockhart wrote:
BoxBuzz wrote:pretty sure we would have heard the following......

......AND NEW.... HEAVYWEIGHT CHAMPION OF THE WORLD....
Henry Cooper, Alejandro Lavorante, Brian London, Doug Jones

... Please...

Folley wouldn't have stood a snowballs chance in hell vs. Floyd

Agreed

silkov · Post by **silkov** » 08 Apr 2006, 15:54

bill.lockhart wrote:
BoxBuzz wrote:pretty sure we would have heard the following......

......AND NEW.... HEAVYWEIGHT CHAMPION OF THE WORLD....
Henry Cooper, Alejandro Lavorante, Brian London, Doug Jones

... Please...

Folley wouldn't have stood a snowballs chance in hell vs. Floyd

Pure floolishness to write off Folleys chances against Patterson... if he was such a soft touch why did Pattersons people avoid him like the plague... and don't say because he wasn't a draw... was Brian London a huge draw when he fought Patterson?...

evndrbsn · Post by **evndrbsn** » 08 Apr 2006, 15:54

BoxBuzz wrote:I'm of the mind that Patterson was a fluke on the HW scale of things.

Lost to Joey Maxim
Knocked down by Rademacher (How'd that happen?)
KO'd once and fought two competitive fights with Ingemar
Outed twice in one round by Liston
Notched by Jerry Quarry
Notched by Jimmy Ellis
This guy was down more times than the Dow Jones.

BoxBuzz, this is bullsh*t. Patterson was jobbed against Maxim as most ringside observers felt he won. We don't have the complete 8 rounds to judge on since I don't believe more than 4 rounds of the fight have been shown recently.

Yeah he got knocked down by Rademacher, but who won the fight? The guy was talented but rushed.

Liston I agree.

He also got screwed against Ellis and Quarry. Against Ellis, it was indeed close, I had it 8-7 for Patterson, but those are 8 DECISIVE rounds that I felt he won clearly.

Thats like holding it against Emanuel Augustus for getting robbed from Courtney Burton. Patterson was an A class fighter and he showed it time and time again. Patterson gave Muhammad Ali trouble in the rematch because he was not injured. Ali gave an injured Patterson a beating in the first match but Patterson refused to fold. I still think Ali would have beaten Patterson if his back wasn't injured in the first fight, but it would have been close.

silkov · Post by **silkov** » 08 Apr 2006, 15:56

BrocktonBlockbuster49 wrote:
Lost to Joey Maxim
Knocked down by Rademacher (How'd that happen?)
KO'd once and fought two competitive fights with Ingemar
Outed twice in one round by Liston
Notched by Jerry Quarry
Notched by Jimmy Ellis
This guy was down more times than the Dow Jones.

he was robbed vs quarry, especially first fight.

- past his prime patterson kicked the shit out of ellis breaking his nose, knocking him down(incorrectley ruled slip) YET WAS ROBBED

- he knocked out ingo twice. ingo blasted machen out in 1

- he was only 19 years old when he lost to maxim

- he was not knocked down by radamacher, watch the tape. its a slip

patterson knocked out archie moore who would have have killed folley

Ingo didn't train properly after the first Patterson fight...

BoxBuzz · Post by **BoxBuzz** » 08 Apr 2006, 18:23

Most of you know by now that I think Patterson is over rated, but to here it from some of you he was truly great he just didn't have sensible judges. I know that judges often times get it wrong but I guess with Patterson EVERY TIME it went to the scorecards he didnt get a break. Ok he's just the world's unluckiest guy.

He's lovable, he's charming, he's one of the most personable guys ever in boxing. He's just very very unlucky.

Damn I wish that curse of his could have held out when He fought Archie......but since we're all about excuses today....I'll offer up that Archie had a bad night and any other night it would have likely gone the other way.

Look all in all you don't get that far without being good. I just don't think he ends up much above .500 when graded on a curve against all the HW champs of history. He's about average.

I think Zora or Cleveland would have rested the title from him but honorably at some point he chose to face the greater threat of Liston and allow a much better "fighter" to hold the belt for a while. (Notice I didnt' use the word "champion".)

dempseyfire · Post by **dempseyfire** » 08 Apr 2006, 19:15

Folley didn't have the strongest chin but he did not have a glass jaw. Jones wasn't a big HW but he could bang (he's the only fighter other than Frazier, Ali, and Terrell to truly knock Foster out) and Lavorante if anything could punch. I'm not saying his chin was strong, but it wasn't a case of any guy with a punch beats Folley. I def. think he could withstand Patterson's shots (look at whom Patterson actually knocked out . . .not an impressive list)

I have Zora on film taking some big shots from Chuvalo, who could bang, and he's never even shaken up. He did, however, have the granite jawed Canadian stunned a couple of times.

Folley had a straight, extremely accurate jab, and a hell of a right hand to go along with it. He was an excellent counterpuncher and would seem to be sleep-walking and then BOOM, one mistake and his opponent was on queer street.

I see him knocking down and decisioning Floyd in a good fight.

Tantum · Post by **Tantum** » 08 Apr 2006, 19:53

Those of you trying to knock Floyd for getting KD'd by Rademacher...

Floyd was fighting like it was an exhibition until he got knocked down...

And then proceeded to give Pete one of the most brutal one sided beatdowns in heavyweight championship history there-after.

To Pete's credit, he kept trying even though he had no chance of winning after Floyd took over.

BoxBuzz · Post by **BoxBuzz** » 08 Apr 2006, 19:59

...protect yourself at all times....

bill.lockhart · Post by **bill.lockhart** » 09 Apr 2006, 17:08

silkov wrote:
bill.lockhart wrote:
BoxBuzz wrote:pretty sure we would have heard the following......

......AND NEW.... HEAVYWEIGHT CHAMPION OF THE WORLD....
Henry Cooper, Alejandro Lavorante, Brian London, Doug Jones

... Please...

Folley wouldn't have stood a snowballs chance in hell vs. Floyd
Pure floolishness to write off Folleys chances against Patterson... if he was such a soft touch why did Pattersons people avoid him like the plague... and don't say because he wasn't a draw... was Brian London a huge draw when he fought Patterson?...

Folley wasn't a soft touch, but what advantages would he have brought to the table. He wasn't as fast, or as strong a puncher. He lost to guys Floyd beat. Fplley was a good boxer & dedicated but so was Floyd. Ali said Floyd was the best boxer he ever faced. He also fought Folley. Floyd was a slow starter. I see a fight between them going about 10 rounds. Ali stopped Folley in seven. Floyd was as good a puncher or better than Ali & as quick or quicker with his hands. Zora was not as fast as Machen. Zora was game, & would have taken a beating from round 5 on. It wouldn't go the distance.

BrocktonBlockbuster49 · Post by **BrocktonBlockbuster49** » 09 Apr 2006, 18:54

silkov wrote:
BrocktonBlockbuster49 wrote:
Lost to Joey Maxim
Knocked down by Rademacher (How'd that happen?)
KO'd once and fought two competitive fights with Ingemar
Outed twice in one round by Liston
Notched by Jerry Quarry
Notched by Jimmy Ellis
This guy was down more times than the Dow Jones.

he was robbed vs quarry, especially first fight.

- past his prime patterson kicked the shit out of ellis breaking his nose, knocking him down(incorrectley ruled slip) YET WAS ROBBED

- he knocked out ingo twice. ingo blasted machen out in 1

- he was only 19 years old when he lost to maxim

- he was not knocked down by radamacher, watch the tape. its a slip

patterson knocked out archie moore who would have have killed folley
Ingo didn't train properly after the first Patterson fight...

patterson didnt train properly for the 1st ingo fight, he took ingo very lightly and went in there overconfident

BrocktonBlockbuster49 · Post by **BrocktonBlockbuster49** » 09 Apr 2006, 18:55

silkov wrote:
bill.lockhart wrote:
BoxBuzz wrote:pretty sure we would have heard the following......

......AND NEW.... HEAVYWEIGHT CHAMPION OF THE WORLD....
Henry Cooper, Alejandro Lavorante, Brian London, Doug Jones

... Please...

Folley wouldn't have stood a snowballs chance in hell vs. Floyd
Pure floolishness to write off Folleys chances against Patterson... if he was such a soft touch why did Pattersons people avoid him like the plague... and don't say because he wasn't a draw... was Brian London a huge draw when he fought Patterson?...

folley had no chance at beating patterson

BrocktonBlockbuster49 · Post by **BrocktonBlockbuster49** » 09 Apr 2006, 18:59

dempseyfire wrote:Folley didn't have the strongest chin but he did not have a glass jaw. Jones wasn't a big HW but he could bang (he's the only fighter other than Frazier, Ali, and Terrell to truly knock Foster out) and Lavorante if anything could punch. I'm not saying his chin was strong, but it wasn't a case of any guy with a punch beats Folley. I def. think he could withstand Patterson's shots (look at whom Patterson actually knocked out . . .not an impressive list)

I have Zora on film taking some big shots from Chuvalo, who could bang, and he's never even shaken up. He did, however, have the granite jawed Canadian stunned a couple of times.

Folley had a straight, extremely accurate jab, and a hell of a right hand to go along with it. He was an excellent counterpuncher and would seem to be sleep-walking and then BOOM, one mistake and his opponent was on queer street.

I see him knocking down and decisioning Floyd in a good fight.

patterson hit a lot harder and was a much greater puncher than alejdandro, jones, young jack johnson, johnny summerlin all men who knocked folley out.

i have seen folley on film in his prime, he would not stand a chance against floyd patterson. hes not skilled enough to outbox floyd, and he doesnt have enough power to stop floyd, and he cant take patterson punch

patterson KO 4 folley

* patterson knocked out archie moore, a more skilled fighter than folley. moore would have spanked folley. i think folley has become overated over the years.

u people make it look like patterson was some wimpy feather fisted glass chin. WHICH IS FAR FROM THE TRUTH

the only guy other than liston that could have possibly beat patterson is cleveland williams

BoxBuzz · Post by **BoxBuzz** » 09 Apr 2006, 20:08

oh and Ingemar....

BB you really do overate Patterson but we balance each other since I probably under rate him.... at the end of the day he was a .500 or average or median HW.

BrocktonBlockbuster49 · Post by **BrocktonBlockbuster49** » 09 Apr 2006, 20:57

even if i do overate him, no way folley is better than patterson. no way!

even an off night archie is better than folley

BoxBuzz · Post by **BoxBuzz** » 09 Apr 2006, 22:35

We could do a whole thread on Foley doing an in depth analysis. I think he's better than you imagine. I met him, chatted with him several times and saw him work out in sparring sessions and actually bought a car from him at Lou Grubb Chevrolet in Phoenix Az. I wil say this for him, he was very personable and an unforgettable character. Genuine down to earth. A lot like Floyd.

They are two of the nicest folks the boxing proffession has ever produced, based on my personal experience and what I have read and heard from others.

I think he would have beaten Floyd....but I thought Archie would too and unless my memory has failed me....that fight didnt' quite work out that way.

BrocktonBlockbuster49 · Post by **BrocktonBlockbuster49** » 09 Apr 2006, 23:08

archie always said that was his worst fight. i will find his reasons from his book. but basically he came into the fight totally not himself and not mentally there and was dealing his personel issues because he was being blackmailed. funny thing is moore won the first 4 rounds of the patterson fight

- i cant see how he would beat floyd. folley had a glass jaw. he was knocked out by punchers far less than patterson. floyd had a lot of power and incredible handspeed which will be too much for folley. patterson beat far better fighters than folley during his career.

patterson KO 4 folley