Jack Dempsey Query

[Ric]

What do folks think of the statements made in Toby Smith's 1987 book, entitled "Kid Blackie: Jack Dempsey's Colorado Days," that Dempsey's professional debut (first paid gig) was in the summer of 1912, a KO-3 Fred Wood (The Fighting Blacksmith) @ Moose Hall, Montrose, CO, USA?
And that his second bout was in late 1912, another KO-3 Andy Malloy @ Moose Hall, Montrose, CO, USA. Any creedence to these? He apparently relied on eyewitness accounts and the Montrose Daily Pressnewspaper.

http://www.boxrec.com/boxer_display.php?boxer_id=009009

[delisa]

I have these noted in the blurb for the CBZ record on Dempsey -- tough call because much of what "Kid Blackie" has is not verifiable --

all said and done, I would NOT put them on the record, but might make a note in the bio

One thing -- I have NEVER seen a newspaper article reporting a Kid Blackie fight -- I ahve Dempsey clips going back to 1915 and they always use "Jack Dempsey!" or "Young Dempsey"

[enrique]

SEVERAL DEMPSEY BOOKS TALK ABOUT THE WOODS FIGHT, STATING THAT DEMPSEY SELF PROMOTED THE BOUT AND THAT WOODS WAS A CHILDHOOD FRIEND AND SPARRING BUDDY OF THE YOUNG MANASSA MAULER. IF THERE'S ENOUGH DOCUMENTATION I WOULD INCLUDE THE FIGHT IN THE RECORD.

[Ric]

These two bouts from the book look like dupes of the 1915 ones already in Dempsey's record here. What is the source of the 1915 ones? Newspaper accounts?

[$ bill]

Added info: Source Utah History To Go by Jeffrey D. Nichols. Site sponsored by Utah Historical society.

11-2-1914 vs Young Hancock. Article said he fought as Kid Blackie for this bout. The promoter was Hardy Downey. Downey arranged some fights for a local saloon owner. Also said this was his Salt Lake debut (did not say it was his fight debut). Young Hancock was called One Punch Hancock (footnote?). Also said he fought as Young Dempsey. Dempsey (himself) stated in the article he had over 100 fights from 1911-1916. He "rode the rods" (riding the rails) to his fights. The article further stated that Downey was so disappointed with the Dempsey win that he made him fight Hancock"s brother before he would pay him. He took the name Jack Dempsey from his brother Bernie, who had been using it prior to that time.

Am presently revisiting a series of articles written by Dempsey in May 1921 in the Republic. (should have been in other papers at this time) He wrote them prior to the Carpentier fight. He did include the Reed fight in the articles. Will get back on this after I copy what he said. I think he refered to another Malloy fight. Not sure. That's what I am checking on.

[delisa]

The Dempsey web page you cite simply regurgitates items in Dempsey's bio.

I ahve seen newspaper confirmation for all of the early bouts with venues on the CBZ site -- none of them refer to Kid Blackie.

He is refered to as Young Dempsey in some bouts.

I compared notes with Herb Goldman -- he agrees that no newspaper report refers to him as Kid Blackie.

[Joe Richmond]

The Dempsey vs Fred Woods fight and the first one vs Malloy are sort of a puzzle as far as what year they took place. I have read all of Jack's bios and tend to believe they were either in 1912 or 1913. Jack was 17 years old by summer of 1912 and certainly mature enough then. As for the 1915 dates, Jack was supposed to be in West Virginia for a short time and was summoned from there by Bernie Dempsey to substitute for him vs. George Copelin at Cripple Creek, CO. This fight was 11/19/1915 according to CBZ.
In the series by Dempsey titled "Those Were The Days" carried by The Saturday Evening Post in 1931, Dempsey states he remembers that he fought Fred Woods in Montrose in late summer of 1913 -- but added "for the county fair was on. But I don't guarantee dates."

[$ bill]

Revisited the articles. Series of five. End of May 1921. Articles by Hal Cochran (contributing sports writer to the Arizona Republic) as a result of an interview with Jack Dempsey at his training camp in preparation for the Carpentier fight. No fight dates are given in the article. Does have a chronology and comments on the fights. No third bout for Malloy.
States the NC (no decision) Malloy fight happened after the Copelin bout and was the second bout against Malloy. Had other information too. The Christian bout took place at Price, Utah. Also, lends support to the comments in my previous thread about fighting two brothers on the same day. No names are given. Knocked both out in the first round.
No comments were made about the name Kid Blackie. Just said he took over the name of Jack Dempsey from his brother Bernie.
Too much information to go into here. Will send this through E-mail to get another pair of eyes to look at the items. May take a while. Do have a question though. If a 1931 Saturday Evening Post article is being used for some of the information, why wouldn't a series of newspaper articles written ten years prior (1921), and also a personal interview with Dempsey, have as much credence? Maybe more so. The events would have been fresher in his mind.

[delisa]

The 2 Malloy fights I have on the CBZ are confirmed -- the third bout, if it happened -- was mentioned by him in his bio as being right after the Fred Woods fight. I don't think it happened either, shich is why I let it out.

He probably did fight Woods, but I don't know when


I would not use 1921 or 1931 reports as prrof that a fight took plae in a particular town in 1915 -- but I would use it as a clue or guide to additional research.

[$ bill]

Thanks guys. All good points. Maybe-for a third Malloy fight. He disagreed with himself, in the article. on the chronology. Did say Woods was his first "real" fight. Might get lucky. Some of the Colorado fights were reported in the Arizona Republic. If I find anything, I will pass it on.