What did we learn from yesterdays fight?

[Oiky]

Yea Joshua is juiced to the gills

There is no other possible explanation.

I agree

Naive & backward to think otherwise

[davie]

AJ is starting to scare me. If Takam can have that success, can Joseph Parker? Will Wilder blow him away? I hope not. But it's a worry.

I don't think It's as straight forward as that.
Just because a top 20 ranked guy gives him issues, a top 5 ranked guy will automatically do better.

Takam brings durability and is hard to really look good against, just ask Parker.

Those others will being different threats and will approach the fight differently. But they may not be as slick or so hard to hurt.
AJ will also approach any of those fight differently.

Takam is no mug and gave AJ a hard fight but ultimately he did win a fairly one sided fight and never looked threatened at any time

[tobyh5]

How can a boxer, who trains for endurance, keep adding lean muscle to an already jacked physique?

mmm

It is actually impossible without drugs. I know that sounds a bit harsh but it is true. Natural bodybuilders can’t get the gains he does and that’s all they train for. I think it’s why his reflexes are shite and he’s very stiff at the shoulders. Roid pump.

I know I am boring for this and have said it a ton of times but as Tomasino says is exactly right and I will explain it for the 20th time.

I am a natural bodybuilder (I am "ok" but not particularly great) and it is a small community and I am big friends with most of the elite in the UK and in fact the world and am puzzled a man like AJ put so much muscle on an already trained physique when the genetic elite who only have one job which is to add muscle, they cannot do it. Oh and AJ is an endurance athlete doing a shit-ton of cardio work.

Legal disclaimer - I am not saying he is juicing, I am just saying this man does what no natural bodybuilder on this planet has been able to do.

[KiwiRider]

- Takam is a tough SOB

-Joshua throws beautiful combinations when he puts them together

- Aj takes too many right hands and Wilder is a serious threat to turn out his lights with one of them.

- That ref looked sketchy. It's only a good example of the same kind of stoppage. Anyone remember when Canelo was getting outboxed by Alfonso Gomez and Alvarez landed one flurry and the ref jumped in like....'whew, I didn't think I'd have a chance". It wasn't nearly that bad, but it reeked of saving the KO record more than protecting the fighter.

- His weight was fine. He's a huge guy who throws heavy shots and has some stamina issues. He fights through it like a champion. Not the first, nor the last to have that combo.

Not so sure I didn’t think it was a terrible stoppage maybe a bit premature but Takam had two bad cuts and didn’t look all that enthusiastic when the doctor was checking him out. Call me brutal but I like to see a ko so for me if he’s still defending himself he should be left to continue but I can see why the red stepped in.

I'm with you, he was having his best moments of the fight and catching Josh regularly. It just wasn't as bad as Canelo/Gomez.

Takem only landed one punch in the last round.

[the_doctor]

Oct 2013 230lbs
Oct 2014 237lbs (+7lbs)
Dec 2015 245lbs (+8lbs)
Dec 2016 249lbs (+4lbs)
Oct 2017 254lbs (+5lbs)

So he averaged about 0.5lbs gain/month for the first couple of years, then around half that for the last two years. That is not beyond the realms of possibility for a full time athlete with the best nutritionists, trainers and equipment money can buy, plus some good genetics of course.

Now, that's not to say he isn't using anything, just that the figures alone prove nothing. I also agree with many on here that the weight gain is actually becoming a negative and he would probably be a better all-round fighter if he was nearer 240-245lbs.

[danconnollyeire]

It's difficult. On one hand I love the fact we have a big, scary HW world champion with a monster punch who KOd Klit. On the other hand, when I think about it, AJ is pretty crap really, he's just less crap than the others, who are all very crap

There's a few things here. I'm not Haye's biggest fan but in his prime, with his power and speed and stamina that is, not amazing in any way shape or form but a lot better than AJ, Haye of 2010 would smash him. He's too fast with his power

Also, the Fury that beat Klit would be a tricky pudendum for 12 rounds and frustrate that life out of AJ. And with his high stamina, as long as he survives the first 3 rounds, he'd just jab the fvck out of him from the outside

Luckily enough, Fury has ruined his body and Haye is now old and weak and he looks like the monster of the division. Wilder is crap too

[TheGingerBomber]

One glaring reality to emerge for me personally is how bad this division is, because Takam seemed very limited. And he's in the top 20.

AJ is starting to scare me. If Takam can have that success, can Joseph Parker? Will Wilder blow him away? I hope not. But it's a worry.

Just can't wait to see how he prepares for his next bout, and what weight he is.

Depends what you class as "success". Takam won one, maybe two rounds out of nine and was losing the 10th, he had both eyes split open, had been knocked down once and, for all the talk of Joshua gassing, never actually had him in any trouble.

He was incredibly brave, showed phenomenal durability and didn't get knocked out, but lets not pretend he didn't get beaten up.

I ain't saying anything different from you mate, he beat him well, I think AJ had to think it through. But there's a casual expectation that, "this guy is half his size, he'll blow him away", and many thought it would be an early finish. I knew Takam would take him rounds unless AJ really put his foot down, and he's more wary after being clocked by Klitschko. I think we'll see better from him next time out.

[TheGingerBomber]

AJ is starting to scare me. If Takam can have that success, can Joseph Parker? Will Wilder blow him away? I hope not. But it's a worry.

I don't think It's as straight forward as that.
Just because a top 20 ranked guy gives him issues, a top 5 ranked guy will automatically do better.

Takam brings durability and is hard to really look good against, just ask Parker.

Those others will being different threats and will approach the fight differently. But they may not be as slick or so hard to hurt.
AJ will also approach any of those fight differently.

Takam is no mug and gave AJ a hard fight but ultimately he did win a fairly one sided fight and never looked threatened at any time

They're not necessarily my opinions pal, just questions to bring up, and I think you've summed it up well. The age old "styles make fights".
As I've said previous, I banked on rounds 7/12 for the stoppage.

[lurkyshaka]

The weight he's now lugging around is causing physical regression.....he's gaining experience and still learning tactically and technically, but he's not as physically primed for a boxing match as he was when he was fighting more around the 235-40 mark. He was a big b@sta@rd then, but fast with that strength and power. Now he's slower and more predictable and his pace has been affected. The lack of snap on his punches is also causing him to lose power or at least the surprise factor on his punches.

I always felt the comparisons to Bruno were unfair as Joshua actually looked to have pretty impressive speed for such a big man.....but now they're looking more apt. And the comments that Fury was making a couple years ago calling him Flex and Stiff idiot seemed unfair....now they're actually starting to ring true.

They need to get a grip on this before its too late and someone takes full advantage. Its not like nobody can see it coming....its crystal clear. Time for somebody in that camp to be a man and say it how it is. Or at least someone on the SKY team to stop towing the company line and actually speak the truth.

A few fights back I'd have had no hesitation in saying that Joshua would leather Wilder, but now that gap is closing. Wilder is crude as hell, but he's powerful and quick. And with the weight that Joshua is lugging around of late he'd be giving Wilder an excellent chance at being quicker on the trigger.

[kbackup408]

The weight he's now lugging around is causing physical regression.....he's gaining experience and still learning tactically and technically, but he's not as physically primed for a boxing match as he was when he was fighting more around the 235-40 mark. He was a big b@sta@rd then, but fast with that strength and power. Now he's slower and more predictable and his pace has been affected. The lack of snap on his punches is also causing him to lose power or at least the surprise factor on his punches.

I always felt the comparisons to Bruno were unfair as Joshua actually looked to have pretty impressive speed for such a big man.....but now they're looking more apt. And the comments that Fury was making a couple years ago calling him Flex and Stiff idiot seemed unfair....now they're actually starting to ring true.

They need to get a grip on this before its too late and someone takes full advantage. Its not like nobody can see it coming....its crystal clear. Time for somebody in that camp to be a man and say it how it is. Or at least someone on the SKY team to stop towing the company line and actually speak the truth.

A few fights back I'd have had no hesitation in saying that Joshua would leather Wilder, but now that gap is closing. Wilder is crude as hell, but he's powerful and quick. And with the weight that Joshua is lugging around of late he'd be giving Wilder an excellent chance at being quicker on the trigger.

You more or less summed up everything I was thinking and perhaps even said it more eloquently then some others, couldn't agree more I want the lad to come in 241-245 not an ounce more !

[lurkyshaka]

The weight he's now lugging around is causing physical regression.....he's gaining experience and still learning tactically and technically, but he's not as physically primed for a boxing match as he was when he was fighting more around the 235-40 mark. He was a big b@sta@rd then, but fast with that strength and power. Now he's slower and more predictable and his pace has been affected. The lack of snap on his punches is also causing him to lose power or at least the surprise factor on his punches.

I always felt the comparisons to Bruno were unfair as Joshua actually looked to have pretty impressive speed for such a big man.....but now they're looking more apt. And the comments that Fury was making a couple years ago calling him Flex and Stiff idiot seemed unfair....now they're actually starting to ring true.

They need to get a grip on this before its too late and someone takes full advantage. Its not like nobody can see it coming....its crystal clear. Time for somebody in that camp to be a man and say it how it is. Or at least someone on the SKY team to stop towing the company line and actually speak the truth.

A few fights back I'd have had no hesitation in saying that Joshua would leather Wilder, but now that gap is closing. Wilder is crude as hell, but he's powerful and quick. And with the weight that Joshua is lugging around of late he'd be giving Wilder an excellent chance at being quicker on the trigger.

You more or less summed up everything I was thinking and perhaps even said it more eloquently then some others, couldn't agree more I want the lad to come in 241-245 not an ounce more !

Thanks mate.....thing is like you I want to see him do well and perform at his best, but he can't do that when he's coming in so heavily muscled. He just needs to chill on the big weights and his body will naturally streamline.

[ILikeBeer]

I can't help but think moving an 18st frame for 36 minutes (12 rounds) will be taxing on the body if AJ goes the distance, what was your assessment of the fight?

I can't remember too much of it, I'd had a lot to drink.

I remember some guy kicked my pint over at one point.

[ILikeBeer]

Nothing we didn't already know. British referees will stop fights way sooner than they should.

Better than stopping it too late.

[littlepug]

Joshuas size will eventually be his downfall, you just don't need to be that big as a heavyweight boxer, the guy is just losing any fluidity/flexability that he had, the gap is closing fast between Josh and Wilder IMO

[kbackup408]

I can't help but think moving an 18st frame for 36 minutes (12 rounds) will be taxing on the body if AJ goes the distance, what was your assessment of the fight?

I can't remember too much of it, I'd had a lot to drink.

I remember some guy kicked my pint over at one point.

Whiskey for me mate, i've not had pint in a week now (progress) haha !

[gilgamesh]

Nothing we didn't already know. British referees will stop fights way sooner than they should.

Better than stopping it too late.

Of course, but it was nowhere near "Too late" in this case.

[ILikeBeer]

Whiskey for me mate, i've not had pint in a week now (progress) haha !

Well, I made the mistake of having a few beers with the football results, before deciding to go and watch the PPV in the pub.

Getting a bit close to 40, I'm going to have to act my age at some point.

Felt rough as the next day. Probably the McDonalds I had on the way home.

[gilgamesh]

Whiskey for me mate, i've not had pint in a week now (progress) haha !

Well, I made the mistake of having a few beers with the football results, before deciding to go and watch the PPV in the pub.

Getting a bit close to 40, I'm going to have to act my age at some point.

Felt rough as the next day. Probably the McDonalds I had on the way home.

If you start acting your age more you'll have to change your screenname to "ILikeCoffee" or something

[ILikeBeer]

If you start acting your age more you'll have to change your screenname to "ILikeCoffee" or something

ILikeAdultResponsibilities

ILikePayingOffAMortgage

[gilgamesh]

If you start acting your age more you'll have to change your screenname to "ILikeCoffee" or something

ILikeAdultResponsibilities

ILikePayingOffAMortgage

[Bodyshot3]

What did we learn from yesterdays fight?

Joshua and Wilder are apprentices with championship belts.

[jamamb]

Oct 2013 230lbs
Oct 2014 237lbs (+7lbs)
Dec 2015 245lbs (+8lbs)
Dec 2016 249lbs (+4lbs)
Oct 2017 254lbs (+5lbs)

So he averaged about 0.5lbs gain/month for the first couple of years, then around half that for the last two years. That is not beyond the realms of possibility for a full time athlete with the best nutritionists, trainers and equipment money can buy, plus some good genetics of course.

Now, that's not to say he isn't using anything, just that the figures alone prove nothing. I also agree with many on here that the weight gain is actually becoming a negative and he would probably be a better all-round fighter if he was nearer 240-245lbs.

you may be right but i also look at that distended yet ripped gut with suspicion. thing is hes making these steady gains after admitting hes been into body building for years and years now, along with doing considerable cardio training at same time. its not like he just started lifting and is making the easy early gains. josh is one of my top 5 favourites but i definitely lean toward him...

hed hardly be alone if it were true. these days i think its more like leveling the playing field. not saying he ACTUALLY is using btw...

[Grilling Machine]

Also, the Fury that beat Klit would be a tricky pudendum for 12 rounds and frustrate that life out of AJ. And with his high stamina, as long as he survives the first 3 rounds, he'd just jab the fvck out of him from the outside

Fury tucks his chin well behind his left shoulder and jabs off the backfoot, taking half-steps back to maintain advantage when necessary, and that's hard for most people to get around. He has a tendency to hang his jab out to dry in the other guy's face, just like Audley was often guilty of, but in the latter's case he was trying to blind you to his straight left. Fury's more sparing with his right hand, typically reserving it until you try and get under his jab.

This is where shorter opponents struggle, because they have to turn a bit square to close that huge gap before Fury can back away again. Even Mike Tyson would've been frustrated for a while, I think. And if a shorter opponent tries rushing in against Fury's drying jab down the middle, he has such a long reach that he can shove them off-balance with his extended right arm as they come in, exiting to his right behind it. Chisora was too slow to deal with that in their rematch. He can also guard against overhand rights with his right hand in a temporary crossguard. Patterson's gazelle punch would've given him something to think about, as well as Frazier's relentless left whenever he was close.

You can close the gap faster without compromising your angle if you're taller and not lead-footed, the only proviso's that you have to risk walking onto something before you're in range to unload. I fancied Haye to win when they were supposed to fight because he was still mobile enough at that point to land his overhand right before Fury could react (for all his reach, he has quite slow hands). You probably can't catch his chin with an overhand right because it's buried, but his left temple's open to fast counters if you've quick feet. One of the key things there is that the psychology of walking onto a punch is ostensibly more effective than the reality against anyone with a good chin. Had Klitschko fought a rematch, all he had to do was revert to his old risk-taking style to get up in Fury's grill, and I think they both knew this. When was the last time you saw Fury standing his ground and covering up? He uses that insane reach to force commitments that put others off-balance, and then turns and ties them repeatedly. It's incredibly effective.

But Joshua can take a decent shot, hits harder than anyone Fury's faced bar Klitschko, and unlike Klitschko that night, is presumably happy to take some of Fury's shots to trap him on the ropes. Fury can't manhandle Joshua, probably can't knock him out, and his gameplan's totally obvious as jab-and-move until Joshua gasses. Far from this modern-day Ali of online reputation, Joshua's height and reach is enough to make Fury's tactics look fairly basic unless he gets careless in a fan-pleasing mood. So long as he's not even heavier and loses all speed in his footwork... Fleetfootedness is crucial against Fury.

What I do give Fury a lot of credit for — in his later fights — is having superb defensive instincts when pressured. His arms and legs are so long, he's like a fighting grasshopper, and he senses when it's safe to turn his man and retreat really well. At his best, he might be able to frustrate Joshua for long enough to use the crowd against him, because Joshua wouldn't like the feeling of letting his fans down if his work wasn't paying off. But I find it quite hard to imagine Fury not getting caught by a damaging shot in the first half, and that makes me lean heavily towards Joshua. 85-15 or thereabouts. And that's the prime version of Fury.

[Deserter]

Oct 2013 230lbs
Oct 2014 237lbs (+7lbs)
Dec 2015 245lbs (+8lbs)
Dec 2016 249lbs (+4lbs)
Oct 2017 254lbs (+5lbs)

So he averaged about 0.5lbs gain/month for the first couple of years, then around half that for the last two years. That is not beyond the realms of possibility for a full time athlete with the best nutritionists, trainers and equipment money can buy, plus some good genetics of course.

Now, that's not to say he isn't using anything, just that the figures alone prove nothing. I also agree with many on here that the weight gain is actually becoming a negative and he would probably be a better all-round fighter if he was nearer 240-245lbs.

you may be right but i also look at that distended yet ripped gut with suspicion. thing is hes making these steady gains after admitting hes been into body building for years and years now, along with doing considerable cardio training at same time. its not like he just started lifting and is making the easy early gains. josh is one of my top 5 favourites but i definitely lean toward him...

hed hardly be alone if it were true. these days i think its more like leveling the playing field. not saying he ACTUALLY is using btw...

This. Also feel people are really discounting Toby's expertise in this field.

[Counter-puncher]

Also, the Fury that beat Klit would be a tricky pudendum for 12 rounds and frustrate that life out of AJ. And with his high stamina, as long as he survives the first 3 rounds, he'd just jab the fvck out of him from the outside

Fury tucks his chin well behind his left shoulder and jabs off the backfoot, taking half-steps back to maintain advantage when necessary, and that's hard for most people to get around. He has a tendency to hang his jab out to dry in the other guy's face, just like Audley was often guilty of, but in the latter's case he was trying to blind you to his straight left. Fury's more sparing with his right hand, typically reserving it until you try and get under his jab.

This is where shorter opponents struggle, because they have to turn a bit square to close that huge gap before Fury can back away again. Even Mike Tyson would've been frustrated for a while, I think. And if a shorter opponent tries rushing in against Fury's drying jab down the middle, he has such a long reach that he can shove them off-balance with his extended right arm as they come in, exiting to his right behind it. Chisora was too slow to deal with that in their rematch. He can also guard against overhand rights with his right hand in a temporary crossguard. Patterson's gazelle punch would've given him something to think about, as well as Frazier's relentless left whenever he was close.

You can close the gap faster without compromising your angle if you're taller and not lead-footed, the only proviso's that you have to risk walking onto something before you're in range to unload. I fancied Haye to win when they were supposed to fight because he was still mobile enough at that point to land his overhand right before Fury could react (for all his reach, he has quite slow hands). You probably can't catch his chin with an overhand right because it's buried, but his left temple's open to fast counters if you've quick feet. One of the key things there is that the psychology of walking onto a punch is ostensibly more effective than the reality against anyone with a good chin. Had Klitschko fought a rematch, all he had to do was revert to his old risk-taking style to get up in Fury's grill, and I think they both knew this. When was the last time you saw Fury standing his ground and covering up? He uses that insane reach to force commitments that put others off-balance, and then turns and ties them repeatedly. It's incredibly effective.

But Joshua can take a decent shot, hits harder than anyone Fury's faced bar Klitschko, and unlike Klitschko that night, is presumably happy to take some of Fury's shots to trap him on the ropes. Fury can't manhandle Joshua, probably can't knock him out, and his gameplan's totally obvious as jab-and-move until Joshua gasses. Far from this modern-day Ali of online reputation, Joshua's height and reach is enough to make Fury's tactics look fairly basic unless he gets careless in a fan-pleasing mood. So long as he's not even heavier and loses all speed in his footwork... Fleetfootedness is crucial against Fury.

What I do give Fury a lot of credit for — in his later fights — is having superb defensive instincts when pressured. His arms and legs are so long, he's like a fighting grasshopper, and he senses when it's safe to turn his man and retreat really well. At his best, he might be able to frustrate Joshua for long enough to use the crowd against him, because Joshua wouldn't like the feeling of letting his fans down if his work wasn't paying off. But I find it quite hard to imagine Fury not getting caught by a damaging shot in the first half, and that makes me lean heavily towards Joshua. 85-15 or thereabouts. And that's the prime version of Fury.

Excellent post and analysis