Benny Leonard v Roberto Duran

[nobleart1978]

What do you think would have happened if these two greats had met over 15 rounds in their prime at 135 lbs ?

[SenorPipino]

Leonard was a hell of a boxer and could also punch.

Rated by man boxing historians an all-time top 10 P4P fighter.

He would figure to be another "Leonard" who would give Duran fits.

Roberto had his problems with boxers and Leonard was one of the best. He also would be able to get Duran's respect as Leonard was no Vilomar Fernandez, Edwin Viruet or Lou Bizarro. He could whack.

Razor close fight, however. Maybe depends who's doing the judging and what they like.

The aggressiveness, fury and avalanche of punches from Duran, or the slickness, quickness and terrific technique of Leonard.

I like pure boxers so I'll go with Leonard by 15 round split decision.

[Kalan]

Benny Leonard was no Sugar Ray Leonard.. He was a weakling compared to Leonard..

When Duran beat Leonard he was 72-1... and had reversed his only defeat to De Jesus with 2 convincing KO wins... He later beat 6' tall Middleweight Champion Iran Barkley at the age of 37 at a time when he was beyond fat.. Benny Leonard was 5' 5" and he doesn't beat Duran.

Jimmy McLarnin was actually Benny Leonard's 215th fight... His real KO ratio was 33% and not 70% which Boxrec achieves by counting fewer than half his fights... Benny's KO record was further inflated by stopping guys on long losings streaks or who suffered many KO losses... Benny handed Jimmy Abbott his 4th and 5th straight loss and his 3rd and 4th straight KO loss... KO victim Joe Trippe had 2 wins in his previous 10 fights, and those were over guys with losing records... Marty Goldman was on a 3-fight winless streak and had just been crushed in a 1st round KO loss 2 months earlier... He would continue his losing streak after Benny for his next 3 fights to end his career... Willie Garafola had no wins in his previous 10 fights prior to fighting Benny. And after he fought him his winless streak continued for 5 more fights to end his career.

You don't see Benny's record lit up by victories over undefeated opponents or guys with tremendous records or winning streaks like you see with Duran. Freddie Welsh for instance lost 6 of his previous 7 fights... Johnny Kilbane was a featherweight fighting a Lightweight, but he was one of Benny's most impressive wins. I fail to see the caliber of opponent who Duran faced anywhere on Benny Leonard's record.

[SenorPipino]

Leonard was a hell of a boxer and could also punch.

Rated by man boxing historians an all-time top 10 P4P fighter.

He would figure to be another "Leonard" who would give Duran fits.

Roberto had his problems with boxers and Leonard was one of the best. He also would be able to get Duran's respect as Leonard was no Vilomar Fernandez, Edwin Viruet or Lou Bizarro. He could whack.

Razor close fight, however. Maybe depends who's doing the judging and what they like.

The aggressiveness, fury and avalanche of punches from Duran, or the slickness, quickness and terrific technique of Leonard.

I like pure boxers so I'll go with Leonard by 15 round split decision.

All more than fair comments. However there are plenty of " historians " that rate Duran as the best 135 fighter who ever lived. I'll go with them. The guy was an animal at that weight, almost a supernatural force. Just take the relentless Duran from the first Leonard fight at 147, and imagine him at his preferred 135, and that should give you some idea of how deadly he was. It was almost as if he didn't give a toss about the money, he just wanted to hurt people.

That's all true too.

But I've found that most fans tend to side with the more dynamic fighter in dream matchups.

Fighters like Duran really catch our attention.

Benny Leonard was simply a master at his craft. He doesn't light up our imagination the way a Duran does.

Not to mention that most posters here have seen or are very familiar with Hand of Stone.

Leonard is from a time long ago, and most just aren't as aware of his tremendous ability.

Of course, we all know that Duran had difficulty with boxers. His glaring weakness was somewhat slow footwork.

He undoubtedly would have encountered quite a bit of movement from the incredibly slick Leonard.

Guys like Viruet, Bizzarro and Fernandez, along with boxer/puncher Ray Lampkin, gave Duran much more trouble than they should have.

I think that the ATG Leonard would have done enough to thwart Duran's attack and pull off a decision.

And for what it's worth, I also believe that the cagey, unhittable Pernell Whitaker would have easily handcuffed Duran.

[Kalan]

Unhittable Pernell Whitaker -- floored and easily beaten by hittable Felix Trinidad.

Whitaker never challenged for the Super Welterweight and Middleweight Titles like Duran did -- nor would he have been successful.

[SaadOffTheDeck]

Unhittable Pernell Whitaker -- floored and easily beaten by hittable Felix Trinidad.

Whitaker never challenged for the Super Welterweight and Middleweight Titles like Duran did -- nor would he have been successful.

Whitaker easily beat Vazquez for a super welterweight belt. The same Vazquez that bounced winky wright off the canvas like a ball. Silly, silly, kalan.

[APerno]

I know what I am about to argue is qualified by the fact that I am speaking of Leonard II (was at the end of it all) and the fact that Benny was now campaigning at welterweight.

Jimmy McLarnin was able to bully (a 150lb) Leonard about the ring before stopping him early; I wonder if a 135 lb Duran would be too strong for a 135 lb (albeit younger) Leonard? Leonard had difficulty with the 5' 2" Rocky Kansas. (Then again Kansas was no slouch either).

To assign numbers with no real criteria worked out: if Leonard is a 10 in boxing skills, Duran is no less than an 8.5, but if Duran is a 10 in strength and aggression (at 135), Leonard is only a five or six. I feel Duran would be able to offset Leonard's boxing skills enough to allow him to bully Leonard into a late round TKO or a UD, (hopefully over 15 rounds.)

[Kalan]

Unhittable Pernell Whitaker -- floored and easily beaten by hittable Felix Trinidad.

Whitaker never challenged for the Super Welterweight and Middleweight Titles like Duran did -- nor would he have been successful.

Whitaker easily beat Vazquez for a super welterweight belt. The same Vazquez that bounced winky wright off the canvas like a ball

Vazquez beat a green version of Winky Wright -- even before Wright lost to Fernando Vargas. Wright had several early losses -- and took a long time to get his game together like Wladimir Klitschko.. Vasquez wouldn't have beaten a prime Winky, but that was a Super Welterweight Title win for Whitaker for sure, and I forgot that one cuz it's the only title fight Whitaker ever fought at 154. Vazquez was a low profile fighter so it didn't draw a lot of attention at the time -- and it's a fight that people never talk about.. Duran's world title wins at 154 and 160 are more widely known and he's the better achiever..

Benny Leonard certainly didn't achieve as much as Pernell Whitaker and that's what this is about... During one stretch in his career Leonard had 4 wins in 12 fights with 6 losses -- and those wins all came over guys either making their pro debut -- or they were neophytes with losing records... Benny Leonard's record was certainly puffed up throughout with a lot of guys who Roberto Duran wouldn't use for sparring partners.

[SaadOffTheDeck]

[Kalan]

Laugh your ass off dummy... Do like Benny Leonard against Roberto Duran or what?

[cfang]

Laugh your ass off dummy... Do like Benny Leonard against Roberto Duran or what?

Your disrespect towards one of the greatest fighters of all time is poorly thought out. Leonard’s record is littered with great wins. He managed to beat Jack Britton and draw with ted kid Lewis at welter and beat some amazing lights. Could he have beaten Duran? Well Duran was a greater lightweight but only by a whisker. Leonard could well win. Ray Arcel thought he was level with srr as the greatest fighter he’d ever seen and he trained both remember. He certainly had more first hand experience than anyone

[cfang]

Laugh your ass off dummy... Do like Benny Leonard against Roberto Duran or what?

Ray Arcel had trained both Duran and Leonard and he picked Leonard head to head. Makes me think it’s a closer call than your poor reasoning suggests.

[SaadOffTheDeck]

Laugh your ass off dummy... Do like Benny Leonard against Roberto Duran or what?

Typical of you to be dead wrong and call someone else dumbass when you get called on it. I know much more about boxing than you, silly little boy. I'm also tougher and a better cook.

[Kalan]

Laugh your ass off dummy... Do like Benny Leonard against Roberto Duran or what?

Typical of you to be dead wrong and call someone else dumbass when you get called on it. I know much more about boxing than you, silly little boy. I'm also tougher and a better cook.

I didn't call you a dumbass, but have it your way... Better cook? You probably spend a lot of time around the kitchen with your little apron on.

[Kalan]

Laugh your ass off dummy... Do like Benny Leonard against Roberto Duran or what?

Your disrespect towards one of the greatest fighters of all time is poorly thought out. Leonard’s record is littered with great wins. He managed to beat Jack Britton and draw with ted kid Lewis at welter and beat some amazing lights. Could he have beaten Duran? Well Duran was a greater lightweight but only by a whisker. Leonard could well win. Ray Arcel thought he was level with srr as the greatest fighter he’d ever seen and he trained both remember. He certainly had more first hand experience than anyone

A greater lightweight by a whisker??? What a joke.. Duran beat Ernesto Marcel when he had 16 fights.. He beat Hiroshi Kobayashi when he had 25 fights.. He signed to fight Ken Buchanan (43-1) for the World Title when was he was 20 years old and had 28 fights.. In Leonard's 28th fight he lost to Jimmy McVeigh whose record was 0-0-2.. Leonard also could NOT beat the next 3 guys he fought -- 2 of whom were neophytes with losing records.. Benny Leonard was matched so softly starting out that his relatives must have had great connections in the Boxing Establishment.. Even so he didn't do well and took a long time to cut his teeth in the profession.. He was as young as Canelo when he started -- and Canelo wasn't treated with kid gloves.

You say the beat Jack Britton? ... That newspaper decision and not as important.. With a World Title on the line every one of the writers present had Britton beating Leonard by a wide margin.. The Lewis draw was of the same ilk -- differing American opinions and one of the pugs is a Brit.

[cfang]

You ignore the Ray Arcel comment I see. Leonard was a tremendous fighter. Your revisionist bs is not going to change that. It’s like all your putting down of great fighters like Ali, Robinson etc. It’s not about them it’s about you. You pick flaws in those revered by others with a need to prove to everyone that they were wrong all along. You’re like the boxing forum equivalent of a conspiracy theorist lol

Ali, Robinson and Benny Leonard were was as great as everyone says....deal with it.

[cfang]

You ignore the Ray Arcel comment I see. Leonard was a tremendous fighter. Your revisionist bs is not going to change that. It’s like all your putting down of great fighters like Ali, Robinson etc. It’s not about them it’s about you. You pick flaws in those revered by others with a need to prove to everyone that they were wrong all along. You’re like the boxing forum equivalent of a conspiracy theorist lol

Ali, Robinson and Benny Leonard were was as great as everyone says....deal with it.

Never have truer words been written. I can't decide whether or not he is an arrogant piece of crap, or a retard, the way he constantly tries to belittle true boxing icons, as if only HE knows the truth about them.

Get the fool on about his POXY religious beliefs and he will waffle all day and night. And if any kind of icons should be up for constant ridicule it those kind of parasitical war mongering incestuous scum.

[keithmoonhangover]

I've always thought Leonard would outpoint Duran.

[BoxBuzz]

I'd side with the Duran folks at lightweight or any higher weight......but it's a fun one to consider.

As time has gone on, I get more invested in believing in Duran's ability to win this.....and my opinion has changed over the years.

They are both rather complete fighters, but Duran's documented film record is pretty compelling as to his top 5 all time cred.

Leonard maybe top 10 as well. It's a good argument either way.

[SaadOffTheDeck]

Laugh your ass off dummy... Do like Benny Leonard against Roberto Duran or what?

Typical of you to be dead wrong and call someone else dumbass when you get called on it. I know much more about boxing than you, silly little boy. I'm also tougher and a better cook.

I didn't call you a dumbass, but have it your way... Better cook? You probably spend a lot of time around the kitchen with your little apron on.

Your fantasies are your own. Me in an apron, you in a ring, etc...

[elmersalsa]

Two great all time boxers. I think it could be a toss up. Any of the two heads to head could lose in any given night.

But, I'll pick the great Roberto Duran over the other great, Benny Leonard. It's hard to pick a lightweight in history to beat both of them.

Duran was a complete fighter. A guy that could also box and counterpunch with tremendous inside game. He was overlooked in that regard mainly because he was a ferocious brawler. And his stamina, will, heart and determination and great chin was one of boxing's best. Oh, we all know how well he can hit. Does the Ghetto Wizard ever fought someone like the Hands of Stone? Has he ever fought someone that hit that hard at lightweight, and is one if the top 25 greatest pound per pound punchers ever?

[Kalan]

Typical of you to be dead wrong and call someone else dumbass when you get called on it. I know much more about boxing than you, silly little boy. I'm also tougher and a better cook.

I didn't call you a dumbass, but have it your way... Better cook? You probably spend a lot of time around the kitchen with your little apron on.

Your fantasies are your own. Me in an apron, you in a ring, etc...

Cooks wear aprons.. and sad faces when their cake falls.

[Ossyrules]

There isn’t a man of any style that’s fought at 135 that I don’t like Duran’s chances against.

[BoxBuzz]

And the "zealots" of both old school, and new wave are hard to understand.

If your position is that "the era makes a difference" I'm getting to the point where I think it's a wash.....though at one time I held the belief, and still think there is some merit to the following thought. The old days had FAR fewer distractions....so you could focus in ways that are far more challenging for fighters these days. Kalan seems to think that the new fighters are better by "evolution".....maybe I'm a "creationist" but for all the new nutrition, and science, and regimented calculated routines available today....there's nothing better than simple focus on the basics with no distractions.

And is there really anything NEW under the sun when it comes to the striking art? If you can point to some "breakthrough" post Sullivan then lay it out here, but the basics of great boxing seem to be static.

I'm sure there are a few souls out there that can avoid the internet, the constant distractions and the craziness of today's lifestyles....but the simple life is a pretty good head start....and it's hard to find these days. And perhaps size and size alone means something but that's only in the HW division. UNLESS of course there is a profound difference between "OLD pounds" and "NEW pounds"?

Be interesting to get some thoughts on this while we are focusing on these two fighters.

[Kalan]

There were many fabulous "old school" boxers: Gene Tunney, Jack Johnson, Eder Jofre, Salvador Sanchez, Willie Pep, and Larry Holmes were 6.

But just as Olympic and World records crumble every 4 years -- athletes in every sport get better with each generation.. Gymnasts are doing 10 X the difficulty as way in the past.. Figure skaters too with quadruple spin jumps that were unheard of.. A better athlete is a better fighter.. Some people still work two 8-hour jobs and get 5 or 6 hours sleep.. They catch up on life on weekends.. For an athlete, their sport is an 8-hour job.. Discipline is their job.. Eating right is their job.. Sleeping right is their job.. Ignoring the Internet is their job.. Basically everything is their job..

Where in the past very mediocre, unskilled, and undisciplined boxers like LaMotta sometimes made it to the top -- that rarely happens today.. Maybe because there's 3 X the world population and Boxing is in so many more countries worldwide.. We didn't allow German boxer Gustav Scholz any big fights when he came over in the 50's.. Today we couldn't shut him out -- fans are too knowledgeable and have too much information.

Maybe you didn't watch the movie Raging Bull and didn't see what a dumb dick LaMotta was.. Anyway, the top fighter in each weight class is going to be pretty good today.. Very few Max Baer's, Jess Willard's, or Billy Backus's are going to get that numero uno spot in their division... And NOBODY is going to be allowed to sit on a title for 3 and 4 years without fighting AT ALL -- like Jack Dempsey and Jess Willard were allowed to do.