Lennox Lewis: Joshua, Wilder Are Under-Developed, Still Learning

[SaadOffTheDeck]

Where I lived, the 90's was recognized as a great time for heavyweight boxing while it was going on and I knew evander would beat Mike when he was a cruiser. One thing I'll disagree with Lennox on is that Wilder is fully developed. He's just not skilled. He's like an athletic bonecrusher.

Where I live they are NOW recognised as a great time for heavyweight boxing, but at the time 80-90% of the joe-public thought the No1 heavyweight was banged up & the rest were battling it out for the No2 spot... And not very successfully I might add, as all the belts kept getting passed around.

Well done for recognising Evander would beat Tyson, I always thought Lewis would beat Tyson. But we were both in the minority to the general public's (expert) perception.

No need to repeat yourself, I understood you the first time and you're still wrong.

[Kilsby]

Ok Saad,

Shuffle off to the corner of the bar and go and argue with a beer mat or plant pot

[SaadOffTheDeck]

Ok Saad,

Shuffle off to the corner of the bar and go and argue with a beer mat or plant pot

[Bodyshot3]

Lennox is essentially right.... but I do think he needed to underline the point that at least Joshua is making a genuine attempt to learn whereas Wilder is largely fiddling around with ho-hum defences and his team are not remotely interested in a heavyweight scene that's is now outside the US orbit.

The action is mainly in Europe and despite that one cameo fight against the empty husk of Harrison in Sheffield, Deontay is essentially doing what Euro heavyweights were once guilty off and that's racking-up some very average home defences outside off the big league.

At least Joshua wanted to have a go at Pulev and although he got Takam and things got a tad shiity....he's made/banked some more progress.
Just don't see that with Wilder but maybe he'll surprise us and sign for a TF fight and take a punt?

[lillywhite14]

I agree that in retrospect the 90s era was a strong one, especially compared to today.

The biggest difference is the lack of top quality American heavyweights these days. It was a pretty rich talent pool back then.

It's strange to think that now the Heavyweight scene is more global the overall quality is much poorer.

For a tall, strong athlete in the USA, the NFL/NBA are a much bigger draw these days.

It's a vicious circle, the lack of good American heavyweights means there is less interest, therefore less money which makes boxing an even less attractive option and so it goes on.

The USA is quite well represented at the lower weights (11 of the top 20 lb for lb on Boxrec are American, Mexican or Canadian) but for the big lads, why get punched in the head for a living when there are easier, more lucrative options out there?

Great boxers are never tall strong 'athletes' who decided to pick boxing as a way of earning money etc
The only boxers "lost" to other sports are the exact type we don't want more of!
I've never understood that viewpoint. The division doesn't need anymore decent boxers, it needs a few top class one's

[Tuan_Jim]

Here's how they 80s, 90s played out....

Mike Tyson came along in the mid 80s blowing everyone away. When he got to the top, beating an aging former retired champ (Holmes) and a light heavy (Spinks) he looked indestructible. They criticism levelled at Tyson by the purists was he had cleaned out a weak division of has-beens and never weres.

Still he was regarded as the premier fighter in the division. Tyson got beat by Douglas in 1990 (biggest shock in boxing history) Tyson came out and said something like "I had an off night, didn't take the fight serious etc. etc. I'm still the best heavyweight on the planet and will get the titles back" or words to that effect.

We all believed him.

Anyway, the rape case and Tyson gets banged up in 1991.

With Mike inside the heavyweight division died - Mike Tyson WAS heavyweight boxing at the time.

These other guys fighting for the titles were merely pretenders to the throne... Inferior opposition we all thought.

Anyway, it didn't turn out that way with Holyfield & Lewis both proving to be superior, but we didn't know that at the time.

So back to how it happened. With Tyson banged up for 4 years the titles got passed around like confetti at a wedding. Holyfield to Bowe, Bowe to Holyfield, Holyfield to Moorer, Moorer to a 40 year old Foreman plus fringe contenders picking up belts like Morrison, Bennt, Hide, Seldon, Lewis, McCall, Bruno, among others. Hell even Axel Schule was laying claim to the throne! The whole scene was deemed a sorry mess.

When Tyson got out in 95 he was supposed to restore order to the division. And it looked like he would when he quickly picked up 2 belts from Bruce Seldon & Frank Bruno.

Anyway, we all know he was eventually sorted out by Holyfield (twice) and put back in his box for good by Lennox.

But living through the 90s it was deemed a giant mess at the time. But looking back now even heavyweights like Tua and late 90s heavyweights like the Klitschkos were coming through so add them to the mix of names I've previously mentioned and now its rightly deemed a talent rich era.

But we didn't know that at the time

Well, you've certainly taken Steve Bunce's crown of worst writer of boxing histories.

Tuan-JIm odds on for being under 30...

I remember watching Bowe/Holyfield live. You seem to think you are the voice of a generation. It's comical but very weird.

[Ossyrules]

The 90s was a strong time for heavyweight boxing

This isn’t even a point that can be disputed

[jamamb]

considering that joe 'majority decision' parker is considered by many to be a top hw today, we obviously must be in a golden era. brutal things wouldve been done to guys like him in the 90s. bert cooper wouldve pounded him. im no revisionist either. i get that a lot of ppl automatically overrate the past and shit on the present, but division today really does blow in comparison.

i do think ajs the good though and not like the others today. lennox is right he does have work to do, like a lot of 4 year pros.lennox himself improved a lot over the years.

[Kilsby]

Well, you've certainly taken Steve Bunce's crown of worst writer of boxing histories.

Tuan-JIm odds on for being under 30...

I remember watching Bowe/Holyfield live. You seem to think you are the voice of a generation. It's comical but very weird.

Voice of a generation.... I'm flattered

[jamesmcdonnell]

Really don't see either wilder or joshua developing far at this stage. Joshua seems to have leanrnt a bit of patience and throws better shots technically. Wilder still seems totally raw and gets by on power and natural athleticism but his technique hasn't improved much at all since he turned pro.

I'd expect joshua to nail him when they fight if he stays tight and compact for the first couple of rounds.

[Grilling Machine]

I saw the '90s as a strong era for heavies, but also the most frustrating one because it took so long for the big fights to happen. I fancied Lewis to beat Bowe, but we never saw it, and Tyson-Lewis was years overdue.

As for Wilder, I think he's peaked. To improve any more he'd have to scratch the waywardness that makes him so dangerous, and he doesn't have time to remodel himself in such a way that he'd be less effective for a while. Joshua can improve a bit more, but he doesn't seem to have the boxing brain to learn from his mistakes until he's made to pay for them.

[Tuan_Jim]

The 90s was a strong time for heavyweight boxing

This isn’t even a point that can be disputed

Anyone who criticises the state of the heavyweight division on a boxing forum always runs the risk of hearing the tedious, banal, hackneyed observation that the 70s golden era was seen by many as inferior to the previous era, that the 80s Tyson era was seen as inferior to the 70s Ali era, that the 90s were seen as as inferior to the 80s Tyson era - etc etc - the intimation being that really you are actually living through a golden era, you should give the current crop of fighters more credit, if only you give it enough time, you silly naive soul, one day people will be looking back on this current era with the same old nostalgic affection!

And yet here we are, nearly in 2018, and nobody - literally nobody - following the heavyweight division looks back now with wistful nostalgia at the 2000s and its Vitali vs Danny Williams, Hasim Rahman vs Monte Barrett, Maskaev vs Rahman II and Samuel Peter, Vitali vs Samuel Peter, Arreola, Gomez, Johnson, Sosnowksi, Briggs, Solis et al, Valuev vs Ruiz, Ruiz II, McCline, Chagaev, Wladimir vs Chagaev, Wladimir vs Brock, Byrd II, Tony Thompson, Eddie Chambers, Ibragimov, Haye, Have vs Valuev, Audley... No, everyone knows that it was a truly horrible era to live through and with nearly a decade's distance it still utterly nauseates. Boxers with no fluidity, no flair, no punch variety, no grit, no charisma, absolutely no heart, no nothing, no great fights - just awful fighters putting on awful fights.

Joshua has injected some long needed excitement into the division, but we're still waiting for something to be truly impressed by, and anyone selling the era of Charles Martin, Dillian Whyte, Bermaine Stiverne, Joey Parker and Hughie Fury et al as a thing that will one day be reconsidered is certainly the same person who was telling us in November 2007 that one day in the future we would look back on the Chagaev/Valuev/Interchangeable Klitscho era with enlightened understanding and feel silly for thinking it execrable.