Prime Larry?

[NYDominican]

A prime Larry Holmes against a prime Lennox Lewis.


What advantages would Larry have over Lennox?


What advantages would Lewis have over Holmes?


What do you see happening in this fight?



Who would win? Why?



Please explain.

[Kalan]

I see Lewis getting out jabbed a tad for half the fight -- but overpowering Holmes down the stretch with big overhand rights and followup left hooks.. For the Lewis who fought Tyson, versus the Holmes who fought Witherspoon -- I see Lewis 116-112 -- or Lewis also winning the final 3 rounds of a 15-rounder.

[elmersalsa]

I see Lewis getting out jabbed a tad for half the fight -- but overpowering Holmes down the stretch with big overhand rights and followup left hooks.. For the Lewis who fought Tyson, versus the Holmes who fought Witherspoon -- I see Lewis 116-112 -- or Lewis also winning the final 3 rounds of a 15-rounder.

Lennox Lewis wasn't in the great Larry Holmes' class.

I just don't understand why people in this forum make Lewis some kind of great heavyweight fighter. He wasn't. We are talking about Lewis facing one of the greatest heavyweight and top 50 pound per pound boxers of all time that is The Easton Assassin. A true great boxer of any era.

[gilgamesh]

NYDominican's threads always feel like you're being asked to answer an Essay Question

[Kalan]

I just don't understand why people in this forum make Lewis some kind of great heavyweight fighter ... We are talking about Lewis facing one of the greatest heavyweight and top 50 pound per pound boxers of all time ... A true great boxer of any era.

I don't know what era Lennox Lewis wouldn't have been a great fighter... He was 6'5" X 250 and he could box and punch and beat almost anybody.

LL destroyed terrible boxers like Golota, Grant, and Ruddock... Guys who could box, like Holyfield and Tucker, his jab was too good for them and his skills were too good.. When was 36 when he made a punching target out of Tyson...jabs, hooks, uppercuts, right hands, a systematic beat-down.. He was 250 vs approximately 230 for Tyson and punched him silly in the richest Heavyweight fight of all time.

Holmes was 36 when he tried hard to make a punch bag out of Little Michael Spinks, who made a small Heavyweight about 200lbs. Larry got 2 chances at Spinks and Michael was too speedy for him... But not too speedy for Mike Tyson and neither was Larry... They both went flying out of there when the Iron Man hit them.

[elmersalsa]

I just don't understand why people in this forum make Lewis some kind of great heavyweight fighter ... We are talking about Lewis facing one of the greatest heavyweight and top 50 pound per pound boxers of all time ... A true great boxer of any era.

I don't know what era Lennox Lewis wouldn't have been a great fighter... He was 6'5" X 250 and he could box and punch and beat almost anybody.

LL destroyed terrible boxers like Golota, Grant, and Ruddock... Guys who could box, like Holyfield and Tucker, his jab was too good for them and his skills were too good.. When was 36 when he made a punching target out of Tyson...jabs, hooks, uppercuts, right hands, a systematic beat-down.. He was 250 vs approximately 230 for Tyson and punched him silly in the richest Heavyweight fight of all time.

Holmes was 36 when he tried hard to make a punch bag out of Little Michael Spinks, who made a small Heavyweight about 200lbs. Larry got 2 chances at Spinks and Michael was too speedy for him... But not too speedy for Mike Tyson and neither was Larry... They both went flying out of there when the Iron Man hit them.

Tell me what PRIME fighters Lennox Lewis beat that were better than Ken Norton, Tim Witherspoon and Earnie Shavers?

[Kalan]

Anybody was better than Earnie Shavers... Who was beaten up by bum Bob Stallings... who's losing record at the time was 21-24 or something.

Shavers was knocked out so often -- maybe he just didn't see them coming... Vitali Klitschko was better than anybody those guys ever fought.

[Controversial]

Anybody was better than Earnie Shavers... Who was beaten up by bum Bob Stallings... who's losing record at the time was 21-24 or something.

Bum is a bit harsh. Stallings had a bad record but he was a spoiler and a have gloves will travel type fighter. He was on a fairly decent run of wins when he beat Shavers. He lost a decision to Ron Lyle, lost by SD to Buster Mathis and beat Mac Foster (30-2). He also had wins over names like Wepner and Al Lewis. The sort of fighter on his night was better than his record suggested. But I agree Shavers was limited, a big puncher but not much else to his game.

[Kalan]

Exactly... No real game.

[elmersalsa]

Anybody was better than Earnie Shavers... Who was beaten up by bum Bob Stallings... who's losing record at the time was 21-24 or something.

Shavers was knocked out so often -- maybe he just didn't see them coming... Vitali Klitschko was better than anybody those guys ever fought.

Now you're contradicting yourself that Lennox Lewis beat Vitali Klitschko when you was always claiming that Vitali won that fight.

[ewenhay]

Would be an interesting fight but I think a prime Holmes would outpoint a prime Lewis more times than not.

[Kalan]

Anybody was better than Earnie Shavers... Who was beaten up by bum Bob Stallings... who's losing record at the time was 21-24 or something.

Shavers was knocked out so often -- maybe he just didn't see them coming... Vitali Klitschko was better than anybody those guys ever fought.

Now you're contradicting yourself that Lennox Lewis beat Vitali Klitschko when you was always claiming that Vitali won that fight

Where did I say that??? ... Lewis SHOULD have lost a TD 6... But he fought somebody better than those guys ever fought.

[cfang]

This is an interesting one actually. First thought is, Holmes greater holmes better but in a head to head i favour lewis in fact quite clearly.

Anybody was better than Earnie Shavers... Who was beaten up by bum Bob Stallings... who's losing record at the time was 21-24 or something.

Shavers was knocked out so often -- maybe he just didn't see them coming... Vitali Klitschko was better than anybody those guys ever fought.

Now you're contradicting yourself that Lennox Lewis beat Vitali Klitschko when you was always claiming that Vitali won that fight

Where did I say that??? ... Lewis SHOULD have lost a TD 6... But he fought somebody better than those guys ever fought.

[elmersalsa]

I see Lewis getting out jabbed a tad for half the fight -- but overpowering Holmes down the stretch with big overhand rights and followup left hooks.. For the Lewis who fought Tyson, versus the Holmes who fought Witherspoon -- I see Lewis 116-112 -- or Lewis also winning the final 3 rounds of a 15-rounder.

Lennox Lewis wasn't in the great Larry Holmes' class.

Pure unadulterated NONSENSE. Lewis was in as good a class as ANY Heavyweight who ever lived. What we are talking about is who he might or might not beat, on any given night. Try not to let your dislike of a fighter cloud your assessment of his ability.

Larry Holmes is one of the 50 greatest fighters, pound per pound that ever lived. I don't see Lennox Lewis with the top 100 all time best at all.
What a fighter the great Larry Holmes was. He was in another level.

[Kalan]

Lewis deserves to be ranked among the All-Time-Greatest Heavyweights if Holmes is.. Lewis lost fewer fights and beat all his conquerors except VK, who I don't think he legitimately beat.. Holmes won his first 48 fights in a row, and that is super impressive -- but nobody in that 48 was as big, tall, strong, skilled, or smart as Lewis... Lewis is a different kettle of fish than anybody Larry ever fought -- and would be his undoing.

Particularly that big overhand right following the jab... That's a brutal weapon and Larry got tagged with them... Right hands were his Kryptonite.

[Ossyrules]

This is quite a difficult fight to call, they’re both supremely gifted boxers and have a lot of weapons at there disposal, physically both good.

I think overall Holmes was just a slight bit tighter in his work and a bit more polished. It could be a great fight or one where they largely cancel each other out.

I’d take Holmes on a close decision on 12 or 15

[Dart340]

Larry Holmes is the most sentimentally overrated fighter in history. Maybe because he didn't get his due then or maybe because of all the lazy and unmotivated chumps that immediately followed him. I don't know why, but he is. To the point of absurdity.

I'm old enough to have watched him in real time. I saw him get outjabbed by Lorenzo Zanon for the love of God. Fail to put away a French Pastry named Lucien Rodriquez who had nothing to offer in response. Go life and death with an old shot Ken Norton and win a disputed decision. Go life and death with an unheralded Mike Weaver and duck a rematch for all he was worth. Flat out lose to Tim Witherspoon and Carl Williams. Get outslicked by a blown up stringbean Michael Spinks. Not to mention his close calls against an aged Shavers and amateurish Snipes. It's not like he walked through a Murderer's Row and came out unscathed.

I like the guy as a fighter and he was certainly tough and determined too, but saying Lennox Lewis- who is a bigger, stronger, more athletic and more fluid fighter- is not in his class? Some of you guys must have seen a different Holmes than I did. I never liked Lewis personally and I'd take him to bully and punish Holmes to a decisive win nine times out of ten.

[Kalan]

Larry Holmes is the most sentimentally overrated fighter in history. Maybe because he didn't get his due then or maybe because of all the lazy and unmotivated chumps that immediately followed him. I don't know why, but he is. To the point of absurdity.

I'm old enough to have watched him in real time. I saw him get outjabbed by Lorenzo Zanon for the love of God. Fail to put away a French Pastry named Lucien Rodriquez who had nothing to offer in response. Go life and death with an old shot Ken Norton and win a disputed decision. Go life and death with an unheralded Mike Weaver and duck a rematch for all he was worth. Flat out lose to Tim Witherspoon and Carl Williams. Get outslicked by a blown up stringbean Michael Spinks. Not to mention his close calls against an aged Shavers and amateurish Snipes. It's not like he walked through a Murderer's Row and came out unscathed.

I like the guy as a fighter and he was certainly tough and determined too, but saying Lennox Lewis- who is a bigger, stronger, more athletic and more fluid fighter- is not in his class? Some of you guys must have seen a different Holmes than I did. I never liked Lewis personally and I'd take him to bully and punish Holmes to a decisive win nine times out of ten

Dart 1340, I like Lewis in this particular match. Cuz of his height, reach, and range -- and size, strength, athletic ability and Emmanuel Steward.

But you're underrating Larry Holmes a ton.. He certainly beat Norton by a bigger margin than the scores.. He reeled off the 1st few rounds easily before his injured left biceps unraveled.. He tore his biceps a couple weeks before the fight.. He was forced to change his style and start trading punches, but still won handily on my card.. Nobody wanted to fight a prime Larry Holmes.. Not Foreman, Ali, (Norton was forced by the WBC to fight him) Young, or anybody else.. Shavers had nothing to lose because he had so many losses.. Did Holmes get caught with any KO shots??? ... Yes but not TWICE!!!

Anyway, Holmes's jab would make him the toughest guy for Lewis from all the Heavyweights who fought from the 1940's through the 1980's.

[Dart340]

Larry Holmes is the most sentimentally overrated fighter in history. Maybe because he didn't get his due then or maybe because of all the lazy and unmotivated chumps that immediately followed him. I don't know why, but he is. To the point of absurdity.

I'm old enough to have watched him in real time. I saw him get outjabbed by Lorenzo Zanon for the love of God. Fail to put away a French Pastry named Lucien Rodriquez who had nothing to offer in response. Go life and death with an old shot Ken Norton and win a disputed decision. Go life and death with an unheralded Mike Weaver and duck a rematch for all he was worth. Flat out lose to Tim Witherspoon and Carl Williams. Get outslicked by a blown up stringbean Michael Spinks. Not to mention his close calls against an aged Shavers and amateurish Snipes. It's not like he walked through a Murderer's Row and came out unscathed.

I like the guy as a fighter and he was certainly tough and determined too, but saying Lennox Lewis- who is a bigger, stronger, more athletic and more fluid fighter- is not in his class? Some of you guys must have seen a different Holmes than I did. I never liked Lewis personally and I'd take him to bully and punish Holmes to a decisive win nine times out of ten

Dart 1340, I like Lewis in this particular match. Cuz of his height, reach, and range -- and size, strength, athletic ability and Emmanuel Steward.

But you're underrating Larry Holmes a ton.. He certainly beat Norton by a bigger margin than the scores.. He reeled off the 1st few rounds easily before his injured left biceps unraveled.. He tore his biceps a couple weeks before the fight.. He was forced to change his style and start trading punches, but still won handily on my card.. Nobody wanted to fight a prime Larry Holmes.. Not Foreman, Ali, (Norton was forced by the WBC to fight him) Young, or anybody else.. Shavers had nothing to lose because he had so many losses.. Did Holmes get caught with any KO shots??? ... Yes but not TWICE!!!

Anyway, Holmes's jab would make him the toughest guy for Lewis from all the Heavyweights who fought from the 1940's through the 1980's.

I'll buy the torn biceps explanation for the Norton fight and you did a nice job explaining his performance in perspective. But I remember a lot of flat performances when he was near or in his prime. I just rewatched him fighting Tom Prater right before he won the title. Prater was a tough and crafty guy, but he was a natural 190 pound guy (I know, because I sparred with him a few months later) and Holmes was ineffective and it was an unnecessarily competitive fight.

I'll take Lewis with you all day long.

[AlexCayWalt]

Larry Holmes on a close decision.
Old Larry defeated young Ray Mercer. Old Ray gave Lennox a tough fight. Triangles don't work but Mercer had success because of his jab. Lewis' jab was not such an effective and he got in trouble. Holmes' jab is more effective. In addition, Larry Holmes is more mobile, it's hard enough to attack him.

[BroughtonRulesRefuge]

- Not hardly sonny, tubby Larry was gifted a political decision over a two bit thug who was busy trashing his career and reputation with all manner of disreputable actions that saw at least a threat if not a full suspension from boxing for soliciting an opponent to throw a fight in two highly doubtful fights with Jesse Ferguson.

Mercer midway through the fight choked out tubs with one hand, about 10 sec short of when brain damage starts to set in before the ref managed to convince him to release. Tubs had his back to the rope hanging on with one hand for most of the bout as Mercer preferred bitch slapping him at will to humiliate him instead of punching. Couldn't do a thing with Butterbean and got knocked down for his troubles to humiliate him further. That's OK though. Poor Lar was so insecure as a fighter that he needed Big George to pad out his HOF acceptance speech. I couldn't make this stuff up, the weakest title opposition in history until his cuz in marshmallows, dear deontay came along specializing in short notice TBA title defenses for journeyman pay.

[Kalan]

[Holmes] Couldn't do a thing with Butterbean and got knocked down for his troubles to humiliate him further

You're blind son. That was a clear slip to anyone with eyes... They even showed the slo-mo replay for any fool who thought that punch landed.

I guess for you, the ref, and Harold Lederman, that punch landed... For everybody else Holmes humiliated and beat the Butterbeaner at age 52.

[BroughtonRulesRefuge]

- You're lucky Fat Larry wasn't TKOed for walking away from the ref riding to ropes to keep his spaghetti legs from collapsing.

Replay showed Bean landing a roundhouse catching Fat Larry shoulder and neck. IF he hadn't landed the punch, Fat Larry's spaghetti legs wouldn't have "slipped" and he wouldn't have to get up on those spaghetti legs to turn his back and flee from the count all the way to the other corner riding the ropes the whole way.

Sometimes it's best to shut up rather than have to prop Fat Larry up against the likes of Butterbean whom Fatty Larry challenged, BTW, perhaps just as embarrassing as the knockdown. It's in the video library and trust me, future gens are gonna look at that and other bouts and fail to see the genius. His ranking is slowly slipping as all fighters do as their fans die off, all but Joe Louis who still by consensus is #1, so do pay attention Junior and you might not overexpose your limitations so obviously.

[Cojimar 1946]

What relevance to Holmes fights in his 40s and 50s have on his abilities in his prime? I can't fathom why the Butterbean and Mercer fights are thought relevant.

[Cojimar 1946]

Mike Tyson ended his career quitting against Kevin McBride, and you have issues with Holmes fights with Butterbean and Mercer?