Benny Leonard v Roberto Duran

[cfang]

You watched raging bull and all you can say is LaMotta is a dumb dick? You see nothing.

There were many fabulous "old school" boxers: Gene Tunney, Jack Johnson, Eder Jofre, Salvador Sanchez, Willie Pep, and Larry Holmes were 6.

But just as Olympic and World records crumble every 4 years -- athletes in every sport get better with each generation.. Gymnasts are doing 10 X the difficulty as way in the past.. Figure skaters too with quadruple spin jumps that were unheard of.. A better athlete is a better fighter.. Some people still work two 8-hour jobs and get 5 or 6 hours sleep.. They catch up on life on weekends.. For an athlete, their sport is an 8-hour job.. Discipline is their job.. Eating right is their job.. Sleeping right is their job.. Ignoring the Internet is their job.. Basically everything is their job..

Where in the past very mediocre, unskilled, and undisciplined boxers like LaMotta sometimes made it to the top -- that rarely happens today.. Maybe because there's 3 X the world population and Boxing is in so many more countries worldwide.. We didn't allow German boxer Gustav Scholz any big fights when he came over in the 50's.. Today we couldn't shut him out -- fans are too knowledgeable and have too much information.

Maybe you didn't watch the movie Raging Bull and didn't see what a dumb dick LaMotta was.. Anyway, the top fighter in each weight class is going to be pretty good today.. Very few Max Baer's, Jess Willard's, or Billy Backus's are going to get that numero uno spot in their division... And NOBODY is going to be allowed to sit on a title for 3 and 4 years without fighting AT ALL -- like Jack Dempsey and Jess Willard were allowed to do.

[montrealsuper]

Duran would eat Benny Leonard alive. Ambulance would have been on red alert.

[BoxBuzz]

And the "zealots" of both old school, and new wave are hard to understand.

If your position is that "the era makes a difference" I'm getting to the point where I think it's a wash.....though at one time I held the belief, and still think there is some merit to the following thought. The old days had FAR fewer distractions....so you could focus in ways that are far more challenging for fighters these days. Kalan seems to think that the new fighters are better by "evolution".....maybe I'm a "creationist" but for all the new nutrition, and science, and regimented calculated routines available today....there's nothing better than simple focus on the basics with no distractions.

And is there really anything NEW under the sun when it comes to the striking art? If you can point to some "breakthrough" post Sullivan then lay it out here, but the basics of great boxing seem to be static.

I'm sure there are a few souls out there that can avoid the internet, the constant distractions and the craziness of today's lifestyles....but the simple life is a pretty good head start....and it's hard to find these days. And perhaps size and size alone means something but that's only in the HW division. UNLESS of course there is a profound difference between "OLD pounds" and "NEW pounds"?

Be interesting to get some thoughts on this while we are focusing on these two fighters.

So apart from the " Kalanesque " waffle, who have you got? Leonard, or Duran at 135 prime for prime?

Hey Golden Grumpster.....read much? I made my opinion known earlier in the thread. But I'm sure you don't want to bother with reading a post when you can just whine and I'll repeat myself. I imagine Duran would win this.... I'm touched that it matters enough for you to inquire....however I suspect you thought I didn't address the question at hand, and simply wanted to take me to task for the sheer enjoyment.

But....now you have your answer.

[Kalan]

But just as Olympic and World records crumble every 4 years --

I hate to be the one to sh,it on your parade, YET AGAIN, but look up a guy called Sir Steve Redgrave before you waffle on about Olympic, and World records crumbling.

I had to crap all over your dimwitted head... Olympic and World records DO crumble every 4 years... Speaking of Sir Steve Redgrave, most world records for rowing have been set in THIS DECADE... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_w ... _in_rowing

Conversely... how many world rowing records still exist that were set in the 1970's???

[Sidney Carton]

Benny Leonard was no Sugar Ray Leonard.. He was a weakling compared to Leonard..

I fail to see the caliber of opponent who Duran faced anywhere on Benny Leonard's record.

Kalan, I still like your comment best that Gene Fullmer was a physically weak and small middleweight.

But keep pitching. I want to see you equal that one.

[BoxBuzz]

Benny Leonard was no Sugar Ray Leonard.. He was a weakling compared to Leonard..

I fail to see the caliber of opponent who Duran faced anywhere on Benny Leonard's record.

Kalan, I still like your comment best that Gene Fullmer was a physically weak and small middleweight.

But keep pitching. I want to see you equal that one.

All I can figure is that Gene's physicality and tiny MW dimensions were somehow graded on the "Pre Brexit" Pound. And from Kalan's point of view the pound aint what it used to be.

[Seamus]

I'd take Leonard by close decision. His defense, footwork, and jab would be the difference.

[Kalan]

Benny Leonard was no Sugar Ray Leonard.. He was a weakling compared to Leonard..

I fail to see the caliber of opponent who Duran faced anywhere on Benny Leonard's record.

Kalan, I still like your comment best that Gene Fullmer was a physically weak and small middleweight.

But keep pitching. I want to see you equal that one.

All I can figure is that Gene's physicality and tiny MW dimensions were somehow graded on the "Pre Brexit" Pound. And from Kalan's point of view the pound aint what it used to be

You guys are thinking like 3rd graders at recess time.. Crank your brains up a bit and try to be objective instead of argumentive.

Fullmer didn’t make an impressive sized Middleweight. He was 5’8” with a reach of 69”... Guys like Carlos Monzon would tower over him.

Dick Tiger was older than Fullmer but physically bigger and stronger.. Tiger was not a big Middleweight. When Dick went up to Light Heavy he weighed in at only 167 or 68.. He couldn’t fill out to the Light Heavyweight limit like big Middleweights: Bernard Hopkins, James Toney, Michael Nunn, Roy Jones, Reggie Johnson and other big Middleweights... But Tiger made Fullmer look like a marshmallow and beat the piss out of him.

Eduardo Lausse was not a big Middleweight either. But he looked bigger than Gene Fullmer. He out-punched Gene, knocked him down, and chopped him up in The Garden. Lausse was the aggressor for the most part chasing Fullmer around the ring.. Fullmer was allowed to charge in with his head all night like a billy goat, but Lausse finessed the head and still won handily. That fight is on YouTube and it’s a great slugfest for viewing. You should watch it.

Bobby Boyd was much taller and bigger than Fullmer. He also beat Fullmer. That fight in on YouTube as well – Boyd finessed Fullmer’s butting and ramming head and cracked him with about 8 right hooks in a row at one point. The favoritism Fullmer was shown by many referees was incredible. I’ve never seen anyone else except Hank Armstrong get away with that kind of head ramming and butting.

BTW. I always thought Bobby Body and Eduardo Lausse had good fighting styles and thought they both matched up well with Ray Robinson...

A shame those 2 fights were never made.

[SenorPipino]

You ignore the Ray Arcel comment I see. Leonard was a tremendous fighter. Your revisionist bs is not going to change that. It’s like all your putting down of great fighters like Ali, Robinson etc. It’s not about them it’s about you. You pick flaws in those revered by others with a need to prove to everyone that they were wrong all along. You’re like the boxing forum equivalent of a conspiracy theorist lol

Ali, Robinson and Benny Leonard were was as great as everyone says....deal with it.

It's wrong to knock the K-Man's logic and knowledge.

He believes---no make that HE KNOWS---that Chamberlain would destroy Ali.

With that kind of barroom insight, how can you dismiss any of his other "written in stone" criticisms of so many ATGs?

[SenorPipino]

And what does SRL's superior strength have to do with lightweight Benny Leonard.

I'm sure that Sugar Ray was stronger than Benny Leonard, but he fought Duran at 147, not 135.

A hypothetical matchup between Duran and Benny Leonard would be in the lightweight division, so Duran would be smaller too than the night he fought Sugar.

And Benny Leonard wouldn't make the same tactical error of standing and slugging for 15 rounds with Duran, the way that Sugar did in Montreal.

He might fight him more like SRL did in New Orleans. And we all know how well Duran responded that night when Ray Leonard decided to put on a boxing clinic.

Benny Leonard would follow form.

[Kalan]

He believes---no make that HE KNOWS---that Chamberlain would destroy Ali

Chamberlain challenged Ali... He knew he had nearly a foot of height... 20 inches of reach... and 70 pounds on him... 99.9% of men over 7 feet tall can barely walk and chew bubble gum at the same time... Chamberlain had the speed, coordination, and reflexes to outstrip any athlete regardless of height.. Superstars like Bill Russell, Jim Brown, and other ATG's told him he could beat any man alive.

Ali PROMISED to fight Wilt... Ali did TV interviews with Wilt, promising to fight him and then refused to sign the contract.. Here's Chamberlain asking Ali just exactly when he intended to sign the negotiated contract... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mF57P1uUG0s

Here's a video of many great athletes and coaches describing Wilt Chamberlain's strength.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=STXbuXGPdoY

[Kalan]

Which sums up Oldan Moldy perfectly... He thinks he's 1000 times as clever as he is and he sucks like a black hole.

Which brings me to the subject of this thread... Leonard was so brilliant he lost to inept tyros making their pro debut when he had over 30 fights.

When you look at his first 50 fights most of them were setups... Not many historically important boxers can match Leonard in cherry picking.

I also saw footage of some of his fights and his skills don't impress me as being anywhere near Duran's level.. What impresses me is the film is sped up by about 35% and they think this will somehow impress the viewers with how fast Leonard was.. People aren't that stupid -- they just think they're watching a Charlie Chaplin movie and won't persevere in watching, because it's boring as Hell when you mess with the film.

[APerno]

Benny Leonard's first ink, at least as far as the NY Times is concerned; it was Leonard's 37th fight. I wonder if the only reason he got noticed was the novelty of his opponent. [Harry] Ah Chung was 1-5-1 when he met Leonard; the opening line of the article is referring to Chung's only win thus far. Boxec has this attached to his victory over McCarthy: "Chung is reported as being the first-ever Chinese boxer to appear in a New York ring in various newspapers." - It was enough to get Leonard noticed; I love that The Times thought the polite term was 'Chinaman.'

[APerno]

Which sums up Oldan Moldy perfectly... He thinks he's 1000 times as clever as he is and he sucks like a black hole.

Which brings me to the subject of this thread... Leonard was so brilliant he lost to inept tyros making their pro debut when he had over 30 fights.

When you look at his first 50 fights most of them were setups... Not many historically important boxers can match Leonard in cherry picking.

I also saw footage of some of his fights and his skills don't impress me as being anywhere near Duran's level.. What impresses me is the film is sped up by about 35% and they think this will somehow impress the viewers with how fast Leonard was.. People aren't that stupid -- they just think they're watching a Charlie Chaplin movie and won't persevere in watching, because it's boring as Hell when you mess with the film.

Kalan,

You have accused several great fighters as having 'cherry-picked' their way to greatness. The two biggest so far are Robinson and Leonard. Maybe your right, maybe not, but would you give me an example of an ATG who YOU think DIDN'T cherry-pick his way to the top. - (You can't use Duran at this point, because that is where we are right now.)

[Kalan]

Kalan,

You have accused several great fighters as having 'cherry-picked' their way to greatness. The two biggest so far are Robinson and Leonard. Maybe your right, maybe not, but would you give me an example of an ATG who YOU think DIDN'T cherry-pick his way to the top. - (You can't use Duran at this point, because that is where we are right now.)

Yeah... Anthony Joshua

He only had 43 amateur fights... His first pro fight was against an 8-0 Heavyweight and he stopped him in the 1st... He had 13 fights when 21-0 Gary Cornish was lucky to last 90 seconds... He had 18 fights when he was matched against ATG Wladimir Klitschko, 64-4.

Also: Vasyl Lomachenko... Sugar Ray Leonard... Alexander Povetkin... Sonny Liston... Floyd Patterson... Vitali Klitschko... Pernell Whitaker had a fast start... Joe Louis definitely wasn't coddled... Evander Holyfield I'd say... Muhammad Ali started fast... but there's not too many.

Dick Tiger was one of the worst. Maybe he didn't have anyone to fight. He went from fighting pushovers to fighting almost intermediate level boxers and incurred 4 quick losses... Shawn O'Grady was one of the worst... Not sure why he was matched with Danny Lopez for a guaranteed L.

I won't say people cherry picked their way to greatness... Some were interested in building a puffed up fraudulent record and some weren't.

[BoxBuzz]

So apart from the " Kalanesque " waffle, who have you got? Leonard, or Duran at 135 prime for prime?

Hey Golden Grumpster.....read much? I made my opinion known earlier in the thread. But I'm sure you don't want to bother with reading a post when you can just whine and I'll repeat myself. I imagine Duran would win this.... I'm touched that it matters enough for you to inquire....however I suspect you thought I didn't address the question at hand, and simply wanted to take me to task for the sheer enjoyment.

But....now you have your answer.

Alternatively, I actually lost interest when ( much like Kolon ) you WAFFLED on about Heavyweights in a thread about Leonard / Duran, at 135. But please feel free to bore the crap out of the rest of us, whilst you convince yourself how clever you think you are. I honestly believe that again, much like Kolon, you live in some kind of insignificant bubble, in which you are the centre of the Universe, but no one else, actually gives a sh,it.

P.S. Even more ironic is how you try your best to promote the significance of the bastardisation of the English language by America when you state you live in NEW ENGLAND.

I am sorry to say, but you are just like thousands of people I have had the misfortune to meet in life, who if they were half as clever as they think they are, would be twice as clever as they ACTUALLY are.

Sad to hear about your thousands of misfortunes regarding the folks you have met. Probably just a run of bad luck....I'm sure a positive person like yourself is bound to his stride eventually. Just don't give up! The better folks are out there! And YOU are the important one here....and by god we are lucky to have ya!

[Kalan]

Which sums up Oldan Moldy perfectly... He thinks he's 1000 times as clever as he is and he sucks like a black hole.

Which brings me to the subject of this thread... Leonard was so brilliant he lost to inept tyros making their pro debut when he had over 30 fights.

When you look at his first 50 fights most of them were setups... Not many historically important boxers can match Leonard in cherry picking.

I also saw footage of some of his fights and his skills don't impress me as being anywhere near Duran's level.. What impresses me is the film is sped up by about 35% and they think this will somehow impress the viewers with how fast Leonard was.. People aren't that stupid -- they just think they're watching a Charlie Chaplin movie and won't persevere in watching, because it's boring as Hell when you mess with the film.

Please try to be original. Ooops my bad, being a Murican that is beyond you're capabilities. Later when I am really bored I might come back and take the slightest bit of notice of what part of Europe your forefathers emigrated from

You're bored all the time, just from writing such brain deadening tripe... Are you BuzzBox by any chance?

[APerno]

"I am BuzzBox!"

[BoxBuzz]

I am both glad, and grateful

No problem, I've always felt there should be a place for a variety of opinions regardless how ill informed, eccentric, stodgy, or eclectic.

I'm not saying that you represent any of those....or all of those. Just that you deserve to be heard just like the many people who opine

without choosing to toss around insults, barbs, and condescending jabberwocky.

[Sidney Carton]

Gymnasts are doing 10 X the difficulty as way in the past.

Sorry, pal, but NOBODY has been able to do what Albert Azaryan did with the Iron Cross.

[Sidney Carton]

very mediocre, unskilled, and undisciplined boxers like LaMotta

His record says different.

[Sidney Carton]

Maybe you didn't watch the movie Raging Bull and didn't see what a dumb dick LaMotta was.

That wasn't Jake LaMotta in the movie.

That was Robert DeNiro.

You get your boxing "knowledge " from Hollywood movies?

[Sidney Carton]

the fact that I am speaking of Leonard II (was at the end of it all) and the fact that Benny was now campaigning at welterweight.

Yes, you are.

A fat, balding Leonard who had retired years earlier.

Benny Leonard started fighting in 1911. He won the lightweight title from Freddy Welsh in 1917.
He retired as lightweight champion in 1924.

He lost to Mclarnin in 1932, when he decided to come back as a fat, balding welterweight after he lost everything in the 1929 stock market crash.

[APerno]

the fact that I am speaking of Leonard II (was at the end of it all) and the fact that Benny was now campaigning at welterweight.

Yes, you are.

A fat, balding Leonard who had retired years earlier.

Benny Leonard started fighting in 1911. He won the lightweight title from Freddy Welsh in 1917.
He retired as lightweight champion in 1924.

He lost to Mclarnin in 1932, when he decided to come back as a fat, balding welterweight after he lost everything in the 1929 stock market crash.

Yes that is why I prefaced my remarks with the statement - because the timing mattered. I thought I was making it clear that I understood that. - The one thing fighters don't lose with age is their strength (some say punch), and in that post it was strength that was at issue. - I still say Duran bullies him; if he could bully Leonard, he can bully Leonard. (OK, it's a bad pun but you gave me a hard time, so I made you read it.) And why are you giving the guy a hard time about losing his hair?

[Seamus]

"People ask me who’s the greatest boxer I ever saw pound for pound. I hesitate to say, either Benny Leonard or Ray Robinson. But Leonard’s mental energy surpassed anyone else’s.”
RAY ARCEL